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What doesn't work? Is it not the case that if something has value, it works for that value? Want to go scientific on that?

I'd say astrology, fortune cookies and the Book of XXX all have value. (I forget what XXX is.) For example when I get some fortune cookies, I throw them on he pile of rubber bands just below the displays on my desk. Here. I'll pull out and quote some:

1. Your ability to find the silly in the serious will take you far.
2. If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything.
3. Ideas you may believe are absurd ultimately lead to success!
4. While times may seem difficult, your future forecasts a quick turnaround.

Anything "scientific here? Sure. The first step in the scientific method is observation. Observe those ideas and pick out a tentative hypothesis. Great stuff. I say forget the accuracy of the above. I'm a specialist in spotting accuracy and accuracy is very rare.

@AnneM. You show promise of being a good debater.
the question is whether works at predicting peoples' personalities of course
sure the first step is observation, but it's usually a good idea to not stay on just that if you wanna be scientific
otherwise you risk to just be swayed by self-deception
 

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These studies strike me as being highly superficial. Anyone who knows anything about astrology knows that a natal chart is a complicated web, with each factor (and there are hundreds) influencing every other factor. You can't take just the sun sign, or even the combination of the sun/ascendant/moon sign, and use the perceived lack of correlation with the personality as a means to debunk astrology as a whole.

It sure seems that the concept of intuition has been taken completely out of the "what is and isn't scientific" argument. Which is ironic, considering all great scientific discoveries had their beginnings in intuition.

Astrology is a highly intuitive science. Maybe that's where our difference of opinion lies. Plenty of people seem to think that if something is intuitive, it is invalid.

But, then again, theoretical physics is giving the hard sciences a run for their money, isn't it....
But this begs the question if this level of complexity just serves to fit everyone via psychological tricks and make it difficult to prove or disprove it in a more objective way, concealing the truth, rather than revealing it.

I've read my natal chart, about 1/3 of it was characteristic and that's after I tried to employ my own interpretation of what they mean and if it fits my life, which is where the Barnum effect happens.

And why is it natal chart? Why not before? is there something about being unborn that protects you from the effects of stars & planets?

If anything has any effect it is the sun and moon, because they have enough proximity & mass to potentially affect us like they affect other things on earth, but the other astral bodies have less effect than a person next to us, in terms of physics. That's actually something we tested in physics class in uni, with the gravity equation.

Also it doesn't seem particularly intuitive to me, as it requires you to take to heart the 'facts' of correlations without investigating, it's prob no wonder it's so popular when more than 2/3rds of population are sensors...

I don't consider theoretical physics to not be a hard science, just because it presents yet untestable theories, and also in the last 4 decades we turned some previous theories into practice. Also, btw theoretical physics are stuck because scientists are relying too much on things they shouldn't to come up with their theories, a lot of it relating to confirmation biases as well.Anyways, their difference with astrology is that the latter offers no causative link & explanations for those effects, does it? How much self-deception does astrology require to explain things?
 

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@AnneM. You show promise of being a good debater.
No, I don't. Because I don't enjoy it; it makes me feel sick, even when it's about something that doesn't matter. I think one has to experience debate as a pleasure and a thrill in order to be good at it. I mean, what do I care what people think about astrology? I'm not in the business of defending the things I care the most about. They're for me, and that's that. I guess it just irks me whenever people act like "we all know such and such is retarded and obviously not true." That is so incredibly arrogant and lazy in my opinion.
 

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How much self-deception does astrology require to explain things?
A very good and important question, and one I've been seriously pondering for years now. But I always come back to the fact that this line of reasoning is a slippery slope. The entire world and our experience of it is a self-deception on the grandest scale. But that's a discussion for another time...
 

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A very good and important question, and one I've been seriously pondering for years now. But I always come back to the fact that this line of reasoning is a slippery slope. The entire world and our experience of it is a self-deception on the grandest scale. But that's a discussion for another time...
A slippery slope that leads us to be rid of our problematic perceptions and understand the world better? :p
 

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the question is whether works at predicting peoples' personalities of course
sure the first step is observation, but it's usually a good idea to not stay on just that if you wanna be scientific
otherwise you risk to just be swayed by self-deception
I say what you say is totally correct if one seeks a match of those things and personality. The thing that grabs me is I would go nowhere near using astrology, fortune cookies and the Book of XXX that way. (I still can't recall what XXX stands for. It's some eastern book where you turn to a random page and it has suggestions for your life. Maybe someone here knows.)

What throws me for a loop is the difference in personalities on PerC. I see you put yourself as an ENFP. When I see that I realize I'm talking to a different kind of person and it shows because I've seen your posts elsewhere just in passing. I find myself not knowing I can be sure in what I say. I wonder if you feel the same way?
 
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A slippery slope that leads us to be rid of our problematic perceptions and understand the world better? :p
As if it's possible to separate the world and perception.....

There is no world without perception.
 

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No, I don't. Because I don't enjoy it; it makes me feel sick, even when it's about something that doesn't matter. I think one has to experience debate as a pleasure and a thrill in order to be good at it. I mean, what do I care what people think about astrology? I'm not in the business of defending the things I care the most about. They're for me, and that's that. I guess it just irks me whenever people act like "we all know such and such is retarded and obviously not true." That is so incredibly arrogant and lazy in my opinion.
I'm going to have to go with what I'll call "intuition" here and ask myself, "what did I mean when I said you'd be a good debater? Is that Ni or Ne for me? As an introspective INTP it's supposed to be Ne and maybe it is because I'm looking at myself from the outside. You are an Ni person so maybe you know better, lol.

May I rephrase? I don't enjoy blanket debating either. I just want to know. I don't want to win some side. To me taking a side is a lie because there are both (or all) sides. Here is a rephrase: you are good at bringing out issues in a debate situation ... making comments. Is that like me? You are good at being on a debate thread and saying something ... anything.
 
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As if it's possible to separate the world and perception.....

There is no world without perception.
that's a very introverted thing to say and also kinda self-centered in the grand scheme of things, very much a catch22 in each person I've seen that thinks like that, so good luck with that, sincerely
Jung had quite a bit to say about that kind of thinking from what I remember btw
 

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I say what you say is totally correct if one seeks a match of those things and personality. The thing that grabs me is I would go nowhere near using astrology, fortune cookies and the Book of XXX that way. (I still can't recall what XXX stands for. It's some eastern book where you turn to a random page and it has suggestions for your life. Maybe someone here knows.)

What throws me for a loop is the difference in personalities on PerC. I see you put yourself as an ENFP. When I see that I realize I'm talking to a different kind of person and it shows because I've seen your posts elsewhere just in passing. I find myself not knowing I can be sure in what I say. I wonder if you feel the same way?
That's why I had "unknown" for quite a while but thought I'd try it and see how it goes. Why would you not be sure in what you say because of someone having this or that type? don't you know what you want to say? do you mean like, if being polite or not would affect how you're received or something like that? There are certain things I come to expect as most possible reactions from certain types but I try to not be too affected and speak my mind, tho with some things it's a bit futile because perspective differs way too much and such is the determinism of typology that Jung was so right about (despite errors in details).
 

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that's a very introverted thing to say and also kinda self-centered in the grand scheme of things, very much a catch22 in each person I've seen that thinks like that, so good luck with that, sincerely
Jung had quite a bit to say about that kind of thinking from what I remember btw
Well, just be happy you're not me. :laughing:

(And no need to write this; I'll do it for you:
Oh, believe me, I am happy I'm not you.
)
 
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:laughing: Well, anybody could do that!
Disagree. There are literally hundreds of PerC members who are not there on any debate thread. The fact that you be there means you aren't just anybody.
 
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Disagree. There are literally hundreds of PerC members who are not there on any debate thread. The fact that you be there means you aren't just anybody.
Okay, okay, can't argue with that logic. I cry "uncle!"
 
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That's why I had "unknown" for quite a while but thought I'd try it and see how it goes. Why would you not be sure in what you say because of someone having this or that type? don't you know what you want to say? do you mean like, if being polite or not would affect how you're received or something like that?
I don't think I can quite express what I have in mind here because what I have in mind is so vague. Here's how I think of it. If I say something and it doesn't get across, it's like shouting at a wall for me. Therefore it helps to know what the recipient is like if I'm talking directly to them. Their personality type is a clue as to how they are even if less than perfect. I don't know if I can be convincing, but ENFP = Ne Fi Te Si. Ne Fi means a lot. So does Fi Te. I'm not ready to say how though. I will go by intuition, Ne.



There are certain things I come to expect as most possible reactions from certain types but I try to not be too affected and speak my mind, tho with some things it's a bit futile because perspective differs way too much and such is the determinism of typology that Jung was so right about (despite errors in details).
You mentioned politeness. I don't think about that. I certainly don't want to be deliberately rude but it's not easy to communicate. I've found common cognitive functions are helpful. Ti is different from Te. I'm a Ti person who is willing to make fun of logic. I see the ridiculous everywhere and not everyone is fond of that.

Oh. I've found the name of the book I was trying to recall. "I Ching" = The Book of Changes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Ching
 
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*bump you *:eek:h:
What's that supposed to mean? :wink: I mentioned reckful because he always has a lot of relevant things to say about MBTI and how it's used and how it's not used.

Good to see you again though. :)
 
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