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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hello.

I've taking free internet tests for a while and I never get consistent results. I was wondering if you guys could help me out a bit. I usually test as INTJ, INTP, ISTP, ENTJ or ENTP. I'm not really sure what to make of it. I am male so that could explain why I'm always getting "T". Male's are usually biased towards thinking, and alot of tests on the internet are often biased towards intuition. I/E and P/J are always very close on Dichotomy tests. So I'm really not sure what to make of it.

I had an idea lately and that was that instead of taking a test and check the results I would instead write a reply to the questions and get someone else to interpret my answers. Hopefully that could lead me in the right direction. I chose to sample some questions from the tests at (Similarminds website) since that is the site I've been using the most.


1) I frequently do things without a specific schedule or plan.

I often get impulses to do things sporadically. And when that flash hits me I will usually go with it. But I usually try to make up a plan on the fly so I have at least some idea of what is going to happen. Mildly accurate.

2) I focus far more on possibilities than present reality.

This is hard for me to distinguish. What possibilites are we talking about? If I was working I would most likely focus on what I'm supposed to be doing to keep things smooth. If I was pondering a problem I have I would try to attack it from multiple angles and try to circumvent or force a solution. Reality would have to bend to my will before I accept it.

3) I value compassion over analytical reasoning.

I think these two go hand in hand. You cannot be compassionate if you make decisions without a proper understanding of the issue at hand. I'm going to say that analytical reasoning trumphs compassion because I don't see how you can be truly compassionate without a solid understanding.

4) An argument with feeling has more effect on me than a cold rational one.

If someone feels for what they do, good for them. I will listen to the facts first. I have no patience for emotional people, they agitate me and prompt me to get into detail on what they are doing wrong.

5) I am somewhat disorganized.

I like when things are in order around me because it makes things easier, I dislike messiness. On the otherhand I'm very bad at keeping details in my mind so alot of times things around me will be cluttered. My best strategy for keeping things ordered is to avoid messing things up in the first place and I do that by planning ahead.

6) I value solitude immensely.

I need time alone. People will eventually wear me down. When I go to parties I will take small breaks from people which usually means that I will go outside and take a breather for 5-10 minutes before I return again. So yes I value solitude, but I need my friends. I feel lonely very easily.

7) I tend to value fairness more than feelings.

Being honest about the rules is more important than taking people feelings into consideration.

8) I prefer structured environments to unstructured ones.

I do prefer structure because it makes it just that much easier. If I want my tools or books I need to know where they are, I have no patience for things being scattered in random patterns. Because when I want something, I want it right away. So yes, keep it structured please.

9) I am extremely interested in abstract ideas.

I'm interested in most things. Abstract ideas are no exception.

10) I am extremely outgoing.

I'm actually a bit shy. I can be outgoing but it will seem very stoic and forced. I usually prefer if people seek me out instead.

11) I often start/do things at the last minute.

I usually try to think ahead, when things are done at the last minute it removes my buffertzone and that make me uncomfortable. ALot of people tell me I'm always out too late, but I make sure that I always have enough time to fit in everything I do.

12) I am weird.

I don't think I'm wierd. I believe that most of the things I say and do are reasonable. Alot of people think that I'm crazy though.

13) I feel very comfortable around people.

I'm a bit paranoid when it comes to people. I try to figure them out and I will zoom in on the motives behind what they say and do. I'm not very comfortable around people in general, because I expect them to stab me in the back.

14) I think rules and regulations are necessary.

I hate rules and regulations. I find that they are in my way and inhibits my potential. But I also think that most people around me needs to have rules that guide their behaviour, and the reason for that is that - to be frank - most people are stupid idiots who don't have any sense of what is appropriate.

15) I talk a lot.

I'm more of a listener unless the topic interests me. Most people talk only about other people and I don't find that interesting at all.

16) I tend to analyze things objectively and critically.

I try to. I'm not sure if I'm always getting it right, but I'm open for correction if I'm wrong. That is if someone has reasonable arguments for telling me that I'm wrong.

17) I tend to prefer actual examples to theoretical ones.

I think that both are useful. I will remember the theoretical example and pay attention to how it works out if I witness the situation in reality. An actual example speaks for itself, but I think it's good to keep in mind that isolated events don't neccessarily correlate.

18) I am more of a planner than an improviser.

I do plan things out in advance, but when the plan is in motion I have to improvise to counter any unforseen events. I set a goal and work towards it.

19) I tend to value competence more than compassion.

I'd prefer people to be both actually. But I'd have to say that it's nice to work with someone who is competent. But I like spending my free time with someone who is compassionate. It depends on the circumstances.

20) I tend to trust the mind more than the heart.

Yes.

21) I tend to be more comfortable with the known than the unknown.

Of course the known is more useful. But I don't really have any problems with the unknown. I just don't really get how you can literally prefer the unknown to the known. If I was reading a story I would prefer it to be unknown to me. Or if I traveled I would prefer not to know the place beforehand. But if I was doing my taxes I'd definently be more comfortable with the known than the unknown.

22) I avoid unnecessary interaction.

Yeah I do. People will bother me with the most useless things. I try to avoid doing the same.

23) I tend to make decisions based on logic and facts.

I'd like to think that I do.

24) I tend to be more practical than abstract.

Depends on what I'm doing. Abstract is fun though.

25) I base my goals in life on inspiration, rather than logic.

I must be inspired to do things. I use reasoning to get there, but I need the inspiration to get started.

26) I prefer to keep my spaces clean.

Yes. Clean is more efficient.

27) I am extremely passionate.

This question is annoying for me. I can be passionate about things I care about, but it's not the word I would use to describe myself. I can be passionate but I am not a passionate person.

28) I find it difficult to approach others.

Most people are very happy to speak with me, and they are genuinely curious about what I want and what I have to say. It's not really that hard to approach them. Overall people are very friendly.

29) I tend to be organized.

I think I answered this before.

30) I am very social.

I try to be social, but I'm having trouble seeking people out. It's something I'm working on.

31) I rely mostly on my feelings to guide my decision-making.

If I can indulge I will do what I feel like doing, but most of the time I think it's better to use my head.

32) I tend to be more realistic than conceptual.

I'm not really sure how to answer this question. I'm not sure that there is any thing that distinguishes those two from each other. The question is set up like a dichotomy, but conceptualism and realism doesn't really interact in that manner in my mind.

33) I am a private person.

Yes I don't share information that easily, and I keep my business to myself unless I need advice.

34) I tend to make specific plans before taking action.

Yes. Whatever I do requires me to take a moment to make a plan for it.

35) I am extremely sentimental.

Can't say that I am. I can be sympathetic though, I've often intervened when others were in trouble and saved their day.

36) I tend to be spontaneous.

My mind is very spontaneous. I don't really have any problem with deciding to do things on the fly, infact i need to have some level of spontaneity in my life, otherwise I feel bored. And being bored is my worst nemesis.

37) I am far more casual than orderly.

I'm not a very rigid person. I usually take it easy and let things flow the way they want to unless I'm directly affected by them.

38) I am very introspective.

I spend alot of time in my head. I'm trying to make sense of things or just fanatasize about various things that could or would happen if something was different.

39) I require lots of time alone to recharge.

I need time alone to recharge. I don't know how the test defines lots of time but I do need to be left alone sometimes, otherwise my mood will deteriorate.

40) I make friends easily.

I actually do make friends easily. That is to say, people usually warm up to me very quickly. I don't really trust people in general so I take longer to heat up than they do.

41) I favor the surreal.

The surreal what? And what am I favoring it ahead of?

42) I tend to be more down-to-earth than head-in-the-clouds.

I'm definently head-in-the-clouds. People sometimes get very angry with me when I seemingly ignore them. I simply don't notice them or hear what they are saying, because I'm completely zoned out.

43) I tend to prefer the specific to the general.

Another of those vague questions.... It needs to be more specific (no pun intended).

44) I greatly appreciate strangeness.

Ordinary is boring, so yea I appreciate strangeness.

45) I prefer to keep things open and flexible.

Even the best plans needs to be flexible and open for adaptation. If a plan is failing you better have a backup or you lose.

46) I tend to pay more attention to my thoughts than my feelings.

My thoughts come to me without effort, but I have to pay attention to my feelings or else I will get disconnected from them.

47) I frequently come up with ideas/solutions out of nowhere.

Yea I do. Strangely enough things just pop into my head and it turns out to work.

48) I am very open.

Yeah I am. Just because I haven't seen something before it doesn't mean that it doesn't deserve my attention and thoughts. I don't really get how people can be as ignorant towards new ideas as they are. They miss out on so much new things that could improve their lives greatly if they only made some efforts instead of just whining.
 

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Vel is right. The best way to really understand what this is all about is to read up on the system. Notice though that the last link is Socionics so it will use its type notation in a slighty different way MBTI.

T seems to be a good starting point. If that is your dominant and you can decide whether it is Ti or Te, then a lot of things will fall into place. Your suggesting the following types (dominant and auxiliary functions are in parenthesis) INTJ (Ni+Te), INTP (Ti+Ne), ISTP (Ti+Se), ENTJ (Te+Ne) an ENTP (Ne+Te), so as you can see just finding out your dominant will leave you with only two types to choose from. (And this goes for all types). Then if you are not happy, just try another dominant.

And let us know your progress, or if you have any further questions.
 

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Short answer: ISTP. I'm pretty sure about it.


Long answer:

1) I frequently do things without a specific schedule or plan.

I often get impulses to do things sporadically. And when that flash hits me I will usually go with it. But I usually try to make up a plan on the fly so I have at least some idea of what is going to happen. Mildly accurate.

14) I think rules and regulations are necessary.

I hate rules and regulations. I find that they are in my way and inhibits my potential. But I also think that most people around me needs to have rules that guide their behaviour, and the reason for that is that - to be frank - most people are stupid idiots who don't have any sense of what is appropriate.

36) I tend to be spontaneous.

My mind is very spontaneous. I don't really have any problem with deciding to do things on the fly, infact i need to have some level of spontaneity in my life, otherwise I feel bored. And being bored is my worst nemesis.
These are SP qualities. SPs hate to be limited, and love to be spontaneous and act on impulses.


3) I value compassion over analytical reasoning.

I think these two go hand in hand. You cannot be compassionate if you make decisions without a proper understanding of the issue at hand. I'm going to say that analytical reasoning trumphs compassion because I don't see how you can be truly compassionate without a solid understanding.

4) An argument with feeling has more effect on me than a cold rational one.

If someone feels for what they do, good for them. I will listen to the facts first. I have no patience for emotional people, they agitate me and prompt me to get into detail on what they are doing wrong.

7) I tend to value fairness more than feelings.

Being honest about the rules is more important than taking people feelings into consideration.

20) I tend to trust the mind more than the heart.

Yes.

23) I tend to make decisions based on logic and facts.

I'd like to think that I do.

31) I rely mostly on my feelings to guide my decision-making.

If I can indulge I will do what I feel like doing, but most of the time I think it's better to use my head.

46) I tend to pay more attention to my thoughts than my feelings.

My thoughts come to me without effort, but I have to pay attention to my feelings or else I will get disconnected from them.
In all these answers you put thinking before feeling, so you're a definite thinker.


6) I value solitude immensely.

I need time alone. People will eventually wear me down. When I go to parties I will take small breaks from people which usually means that I will go outside and take a breather for 5-10 minutes before I return again. So yes I value solitude, but I need my friends. I feel lonely very easily.

10) I am extremely outgoing.

I'm actually a bit shy. I can be outgoing but it will seem very stoic and forced. I usually prefer if people seek me out instead.

15) I talk a lot.

I'm more of a listener unless the topic interests me. Most people talk only about other people and I don't find that interesting at all.

22) I avoid unnecessary interaction.

Yeah I do. People will bother me with the most useless things. I try to avoid doing the same.

33) I am a private person.

Yes I don't share information that easily, and I keep my business to myself unless I need advice.

38) I am very introspective.

I spend alot of time in my head. I'm trying to make sense of things or just fanatasize about various things that could or would happen if something was different.

39) I require lots of time alone to recharge.

I need time alone to recharge. I don't know how the test defines lots of time but I do need to be left alone sometimes, otherwise my mood will deteriorate.
You need time alone and spend much time in your head - you're surely introverted.


13) I feel very comfortable around people.

I'm a bit paranoid when it comes to people. I try to figure them out and I will zoom in on the motives behind what they say and do. I'm not very comfortable around people in general, because I expect them to stab me in the back.

40) I make friends easily.

I actually do make friends easily. That is to say, people usually warm up to me very quickly. I don't really trust people in general so I take longer to heat up than they do.
I've read in a type description that ISTPs don't easily trust others. My father is an ISTP and it certainly applies to him.


The problem with recognizing ISTPs is usually that their dominant Ti and tertiary Ni can make them look a bit like an NT, which is probably why you got NT types in the tests. The combination of Ti+Se as highest functions makes you value both abstract thought and practicability:

7) I tend to prefer actual examples to theoretical ones.

I think that both are useful. I will remember the theoretical example and pay attention to how it works out if I witness the situation in reality. An actual example speaks for itself, but I think it's good to keep in mind that isolated events don't neccessarily correlate.

24) I tend to be more practical than abstract.

Depends on what I'm doing. Abstract is fun though.

32) I tend to be more realistic than conceptual.

I'm not really sure how to answer this question. I'm not sure that there is any thing that distinguishes those two from each other. The question is set up like a dichotomy, but conceptualism and realism doesn't really interact in that manner in my mind.

47) I frequently come up with ideas/solutions out of nowhere.

Yea I do. Strangely enough things just pop into my head and it turns out to work.
This is your tertiary Ni. Ni dominants tend to be more aware of how Ni unconsciously evaluates whole bundles of thoughts and comes up with answers. But it seems to be rather well developed in you.


I hope this was helpful. Anyway it was a good idea to describe yourself in that way. It produced many significant answers.
 

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I agree, ISTP. You sound more like an ISTP than INTP to me, but both are worth reading up about.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thank you very much for the responses. I've been chugging away at this question for a long time. After I'd read up on cognitive processes I thought that I was either Ti or Ni dominant because I recognize alot of either in myself.

I've been trying to decide between INTP INTJ and ISTP for a while now and I've been leaning towards ISTP myself, but I suspect that my Se isn't really up to par, and I guess I'm relieving it with Ni or something, I guess I simply have to take a step out into the real world and activate my extroverted sensing then. I feel that it's safe for me to assume that I'm Ti dominant, that leaves only ISTP and INTP, I don't really feel like an INTP even though that is what I thought I was when I started typing myself.

Thanks for the help.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I will try to be as desciptive as possible. I want to see if anyone can relate to this.

My fulcrum of self-perception is the point where my eyesight starts. This is where I percieve myself to be in space. My sight is the focus of most of my physical attention. My hearing is something I think of as a kind of radar. Overall my senses are very well connected to each other and they work in tandem to pinpoint the physical world around me and the objects that move around. I'm very big on movement, things that move is what I will always focus on. If something is still I usually don't notice it unless I'm looking for it. I once failed to notice a construction site that I pass by everyday on my way to work until the bulding was complete.

I am most of the time disconnected from the world around me. I spend alot of time in my head, imagining things and sorting though ideas I have and having dialogues with myself about things I'm currently pondering, trying to debate the ideas from as many angles as I can. I use alot of imagery in my thoughts, I tend to reason spatially, i.e. I make pictures in my mind which I can manipulate almost as if I was writing or drawing on a piece of paper. My thinking is very visual.

I often try to imagine myself in different situations, when I'm take an action in the physical world I see the entire chain of events laid out before me, I also see alot of the alternative pathways there, and sometimes I can even predict where trouble is likely to appear, this part of me is very hard to explain. The simplest way would be to describe it as a hunch, but it doesn't really work that way for me, it feels calculated somehow, as if I had an advisor within me who was working with information that I don't have. Over my life I have learned to trust in this advisor alot in everything from mathematics to strategic gaming. I seem to know things that I'm not supposed to know all the time, and I have no idea where I picked them up. For instance I know several passwords that I shouldn't really have access to, I don't know how I can know, but I still do.

One of the problems I have is that once my ability to accurately predict the outcome of a situation shuts down I'm left rather helpless and overloaded from all the alternative possibilities I'm trying to consider, but most of the time this only occurs when I am extremely tired or overloaded. Too much information shortcircuits my reasoning.

I experience a distinct boundary between physical reality and my own mindworld. When I'm not focusing on the world around me it is almost as if a fog goes down before my eyes. I see see the world but I'm not really paying attention to it. When I'm turned inwards like this I can sometimes get stuck and just sit there until something snaps me out of it. It is not like being asleep, there is mental activity going on, but it's not focused on the world around me.

My thoughts are mostly not in the form of language. I think in motions and images. There is also something wierd in my visual thinking that is very hard for me to explain. I see something that is invisible and it's moving in different ways as I ponder different problems. The best way I can explain it is that it's the mind version of feeling the current in a flow of water, it's hard to explain exactly how it operates but a great deal of my insights comes from 'looking' at these streams, but I don't know how I get to conclusions from doing it. I'm sorry that I can not be more descriptive about it, I just don't understand it well enough on a rational level to be able to describe it. It operates mostly on it's own and basically just spits the solution in my face.

When it comes to remembering things I usually just remember the leverage points that got me to the conclusion in the first place. Once I've learned something I usually don't forget it, I can often recite things like song lyrics from memory alone, if I've payed attention to them that is. If I have forgotten details about something I can usually recall them again by focusing intensely on it. I can vividly remember things that my senses have picked up. If someone mumbles I can replay the sound in my head until I can make out it's meaning.

When learning things I usually have alot of problems in the beginning, but once a leverage point is fixed in my mind I tend to learn very quickly. Things usually just snaps in place for me, I'm not very methodical when it comes to aquiring new knowledge. I don't usually get over things I don't understand from doing hard work, my understanding comes instantly from sudden realizations. Once I know something I usually tend to think in terms of axioms. If I get an axiom that is false, my entire understanding of the system usually collapses and I have to rebuild it from another axiom. Usually full understanding about a subject is based on many different ideas working in conjunction with the new idea, providing leverage to the new tools.

When interacting with other humans I usually see them as a package of options, not completely unlike chess pieces. Knowing a person for me is much like when someone learns how chess pieces can move and what special abilities they have. The chessboard analogy isn't entirerly bad. Most people are content with being pawns, they run headfirst into things and just try to hold their ground until they die, they can't really look back and they can't move foward faster than the other pawns around them. One thing I've learned though is to never underestimate a pawn, if left to their own devices they will promote to something more powerful. In a way we all start out as pawns and strive for promotion. The funny thing is that even if you as a pawn can eventually become the most powerful piece on the board, the king will still be the most important, it turns out that there can only be one king. But I'm slipping away from the subject....

I will look at people and try to figure them out. I usually assess their motives and opportunites. I expect people to be out for their own gain, so I'm often on guard when it comes to meeting new people. For every action someone takes I can easily come up with multiple interpretations and explanations. Sometimes this is daunting for me to think of all possible things that a message could mean. There are lots of things that needs to be considered when interacting with someone, tone of voice, hidden meanings in words, ulterior motives, sometimes people are just saying things because it is the thing they expect that you want to hear, considering that option can sometimes be very helpful. But to avoid drowning in a sea of possibilites and paranoia it is usually for the best to simply apply Occams Razor. I usually just act as if people actually mean what they say, it's proven to give the best results overall. But I always keep the hidden information in the back of my head. I am of course well aware of when I'm guessing, I don't really act on guesses unless I have good reasons for doing so. Most people around me would consider me as a pretty easygoing person with a calm flow. I realized very early in my life that I can't go around telling people that I don't trust them.

As for my values dreams and ideals. I would say that I don't really have any. I don't know what I want to do with my life. Most things feels rather boring and pointless. There are not many things I like or dislike. I feel that the world is too shallow and materialistic. I was never the kind of person who could picture myself with a family and a boring job. I've always hated the notion that my life would somehow be laid out before me in advance. Such a predictable solution to the riddle of purpose does not attract me at all, infact I would go as far as too admit my fear of it, the fear of being trapped in the mediocrity. Humanity for me seems to be driven only by the desire for status and power. If I were to guess the reasons behind why, I would probably say that the selfish gene theory provides a very strong argument, everything a species does is motivated by the desire to continue their own legacy.

As for faith and religion, I do not really believe in any of it. People talking about gods and spirits annoys me, especially when they do so in an authoritarian way. From my own personal observations, the encouragement to believe in any diety or supreme beings only serves as the means of conforming people into a system where they can be controlled. A system which dictates morals, laws, emotions, ideas and purpose based on nothing more than an imaginative authority that can neither be seen, heard nor experienced. It's safe to say that I'm an atheist.

So the world is boring and predictable. The power will seek to maintain and expand itself. The unconventional will be pushed away or alienated, perhaps even ridiculed and mocked. In the end nothing really matters anyhow because no matter how hard we try, death will always be the unconquerable end that we can neither escape, nor overcome. Finding a purpose with such limited ammounts of time seems futile, there is no way anyone will ever be able to fully comprehend life in all it's complexity when we are only lended a tiny spark of existence, in which we spend most of our time as massproduced consumers - slaves, if you will - living in an illusion of freedom that we will never really be able to see through.

If you think I'm bitter, I guess you are correct. I can already see the answers this thread will generate towards me, and let me assure you that there is not a single piece of criticism you can put against me that I have not already thought of myself; most of it would be true anyway, and I already see it coming.

It's amusing how my ambition to explain how I think got completely sidetracked/destroyed by thinking about other people. I guess that goes hand in hand with me not really being able to handle my own emotions in a healthy manner.

I sound like an old grumpy man with all my cynical whining. But I guess it can't be helped, lack of sleep does this to me. I have not bothered to edit anything I've written above, come to think of it, it actually amuses me to read through it again, and that's why I decided to keep it the way it is. Hopefully something nice will come out of it. :frustrating:
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I've taken a cognitive processes test now. It tries to make out your type by asking questions about the cogntivie processes individually. I think it is a pretty good test.

http://www.keys2cognition.com/cgi/survey48.pl

Your Cognitive Development Profile
The forty-eight questions you rated earlier tap into the eight cognitive processes. Some questions tapped into basic or developed use of a process used by itself, while other questions tapped into use of multiple processes at once. The profile below is based on your responses. The number of squares indicate strength of response. The equivalent numeric is shown in parentheses along with likely level of development.
Cognitive Process Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)
extraverted Sensing (Se) ****************************** (30.5)
good use
introverted Sensing (Si) ********************* (21.3)
limited use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) ************************************** (38.3)
excellent use
introverted Intuiting (Ni) ****************************** (30)
average use
extraverted Thinking (Te) ******************************* (31.2)
good use
introverted Thinking (Ti) **************************************** (40.3)
excellent use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) **************** (16.1)
limited use
introverted Feeling (Fi) ******************************** (32.5)
good use

Summary Analysis of Profile
By focusing on the strongest configuration of cognitive processes, your pattern of responses most closely matches individuals of this type: INTP

Lead (Dominant) Process
Introverted Thinking (Ti): Gaining leverage (influence) using a framework. Detaching to study a situation from different angles and fit it to a theory, framework or principle. Checking for accuracy. Using leverage to solve the problem.

Support (Auxilliary) Process
Extraverted Intuiting (Ne): Exploring the emerging patterns. Wondering about patterns of interaction across various situations. Checking what hypotheses and meanings fit best. Trusting what emerges as you shift a situation’s dynamics.

If these cognitive processes don't fit well then consider these types: ENTP, or ISTP

If these results are different from what you know of yourself, you might consider why your developmental pattern does not align with your expectation. You might also consider exploring this result as a possible better fit.

The Four Temperaments
Corresponding best-fit temperaments based on your profile: Theorist; secondly Improviser; then Catalyst; and lastly, Stabilizer.
Turned out that I have a very strong preference for introverted thinking. I can only agree with that assumption. I'm starting to think that I'm overobsessing about what type I am. This test scores me as an INTP. But it gives me the alternatives: ENTP and ISTP.

Reading through the descriptions of those types rings alot of bells for me. I've read the descriptions on all three. Part from the links provided in the test. But also the desciptions I've found here:

Portrait of an INTP
Portrait of an ENTP
Portrait of an ISTP

------

I never really considered that I could be an extrovert before I read this:
Another significant problem arises where the ENTP has grown within or is locked by circumstances to an environment which limits their freedom or their ability to utilize their specific abilities. This forces the ENTP to narrow down their intuitive process to the point where it retains at least some freedom to operate within their life. Under such conditions however, the intuition is free only to range over a small and limited field of vision, a field which usually consists only of the very things the ENTP is normally unconcerned about: the small details of life and its familiar objects. Without the ability to take stock and apply careful thought to the ways they might expand their horizons, the ENTP in such situations can become morose, niggardly and obsessed with the most minor or intangible details – to the point where such minutiae fill their life and each day becomes a frustrating process of eliminating again and again the little problems which ever seem to stand in the way of the “big” picture – a picture which, as those around them know only too well, will never be realized.
I'm actually at a stage in my life when I feel trapped in a boring routine that seems unescapeable. I've grown tired of people around me and I generally feel a great deal of frustration and disdain towards them. I feel like I'm caged. That could explain alot of the stress in my mind.

INTP descriptions mentioning chameleon behaviour around others also rings alot of bells in my mind. I usually try to mirror other people's moods when I'm talking to them. So it makes sense for me.

There are many things in the ISTP descriptions that I don't agree with. For instance I am impatience made flesh. When I want something I want it right away, not later. I can however agree with the fact that I don't have much patience for rules and regulations. That trait isn't exclusive to ISTP's though, Both ENTP's and INTP's will break rules when it's expedient aswell.

I don't think I'm an ENTP. If I am I must be an extremely shy extrovert, and that just seems silly. So I'm stuck between INTP and ISTP. That could easily be solved by comparing Ne and Se. I will mark the parts I agree with.

Se (Extroverted Sensing):


Scanning Environment: Se is noticing changes and opportunities for action, by scanning for sensual reactions and data. It notices relevant facts and occurrences in a sea of data and experiences, learning all the facts we can about the immediate context of area of focus and what goes on in that context. An active seeking of more and more input to get the whole picture may occur until all sources of input have been exhausted or something else captures their attention.

Sensual Experience: Se is experiencing the immediate context, and accumulating experiences. Se occurs when we become aware of what is in the general world in rich detail. Se types have a zest for living life to the fullest by way of multiplying experiences. Always on the alert for what needs immediate attention or what might provide a bit of action, excitement or entertainment, they engage quickly with their environment. Se types are attuned to the environment and the myriad of colors, textures, sounds, beauty and the sensuousness of it all. Their attention will always go towards whatever provides the keenest impression on their senses. With Se, data is accepted without discrimination and is only later subjected to sorting and selection through their introverted judgment functions. This, in conjunction with the immediacy of their perceptual process, may underlie their natural affinity for sensual and aesthetic experience.

Active Energy: Se is taking action in the physical world; it is operating when we freely follow exciting physical impulses or instincts as they come up and enjoy the thrill of action in the present moment. A oneness with the physical world and a total absorption may exist as we move, touch, and sense what is around us. The process involves instantly reading cues to see how far we can go in a situation and still get the impact we want or respond to the situation with presence. Se types often have an uncanny ability to respond appropriately in cases of an emergency, often having excellent reflexes, and they can act without thinking. Se comes into play when events are changing so rapidly that linear analysis is impossible. They respond immediately, on the basis of visual and tactile information, guided by what they done before. Se types are pragmatic and realistic with a talent for being whatever they need to be in order to make a situation work for them.

Fun Loving: Se types seek and enjoy freedom, are good-natured, direct, tolerant and often the ones who provide levity. They also tend to have natural mediating skills. Se types have a way of dealing with people on a very equal platform and are not easily star struck. Rank, celebrity, and status mean little when they are face to face with another individual. Se types love variety and are curious and adventurous, enjoying the unexpected. As long as things are moving along, they are happy. They like to keep things simple and immediate, going with the flow. Se types are helpful in a very concrete ways, providing the correct tools or specific service the person requires. They love having fun and if things are too quiet they may provide the entertainment or distraction.

Stage Presence: The Se types have a “feel” for atmosphere, style, and image. They know what people are interesting in and like being recognized as paradigmatic of the trend. ESPs often speak of that peculiar thrill of knowing their game, knowing when luck or timing or the cards or and audience is “with them”. An ESP assesses what’s going on, plays on it, and takes pleasure in the escalating sense of mastery. You can always tell by the ESPs in the crowd exactly what pop culture currently regards as admirable, stylish, fascinating, outrageous, or exciting. They become the experiential standard by which others’ image and attitude are measured. Some ESPs have a kind of moving-star quality—a self-assurance, a charisma, an appetite for life—That others enjoy and find infectious. It should be granted that ESPs don’t feel unduly vulnerable to external influence. Indeed, they cherish freedom and individuality. The worst fate they can imagine is to be trapped by others’ ideas about normal or typical behaviour. ESPs can therefore become paradigms of what can be acquired, said, done, not withstanding accepted social wisdom. ESPs are magnetic, clever, full of energy and enthusiasm, they make a room come alive, thrive on attention, and are attentive in return.

Suppression: Se and Ni have a suppressive relationship. When Ni is attempted, it pulls one out of the sensations of the present outer world and into the theoretical and abstract world of Ni. Se dominants prefer to be in the here and now, and sometimes find Ni to be overwhelming, in that it can give them a feeling of losing their footing, and lifting them off steady ground.
Ne (Extroverted Intuition):


Pattern Surfing: Ne involves interpreting situations and relationships, and picking up meanings and interconnections, seeing patterns emerging. Ne is useful in getting the gist of a situation very quickly. It has an uncanny instinct for spotting trends and possible future developments, often before others are even mildly aware of them.

Brainstorming: Ne involves entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea. Using this process, we can juggle many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our mind at once with the possibility that they are all true. By using this process one can really appreciate brainstorming and trust what emerges, enjoying imaginative play with scenarios and combining possibilities, using a kind of cross-contextual thinking.

Improvisation: Words, ideas and possibilities spew effortlessly from Ne using types. They are keen improvisers, and they are rarely caught off guard; there is always something up their sleeve.

Change Initiation: Ne initiates change and often is prone to trespassing a few known boundaries to take themselves and others where no one has been before. Their faith in possibilities and belief in the benefit of change often inspires others to follow. They are challenging, ingenious and innovative. They will give their best to what appears to be an impossible challenge, a place unknown to man or beast. Ne also can involve catalyzing people and extemporaneously shaping situations, spreading an atmosphere of change through the emergent leadership.

Inspirational Energy: Ne types, when inspired, are fearless and tireless. Their energy will know no limits. They possess the ability to go without food or rest, beyond other personality types’ limits. Ne types are easily inspired and their enthusiasm is contagious to others around them causing them to become inspired as well.

Suppression: Ne and Si have a suppressive relationship. Si wants plant everything down to what is known, and Ne wants to bounce to new possibilities. Si shuts down Ne when demanding that there are no other possibilities besides what is already known.
I'm horrible when it comes to following through on my plans. Starting this thread for instance was something I had been procastinating for a long time.

I've tried being a bit more open about how I think and what I feel like in this thread than I usually am with people. I know it's reasonably safe to do so here because of my anynomity.

One thing that always made me feel wrong about being an INTP was the fact that I don't really feel smart. I actually feel like a stupid moron alot of the time. Alot of people I know are building families now and settling down. I can't really associate with those choices. I've always felt that there must be more to life than searching for security. I almost feel sorry for the poor bastards, they are trapping themselves without even realizing it. But that means more space for me, so I try to avoid complaining about it.

The biggest problem with my typing is probably that I'm secondguessing all my conclusions all the time. A more confident person would probably just go with whatever type the first test indicated. I want to be absolutely sure, perhaps it's a fools errand. Maybe I should just drop the entire thing and let one of the tests decide, but that would be like allowing myself to lose. I've asked at other forums aswell and people generally think that I'm an introverted intuitive.

Perhaps I'm just overdoing it. Right now for me the scales are being measured between INTP and ISTP. Those are the only two types it could be based on the information I've been reading so far.
 

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You still seem very much like an ISTP to me, who is exploring his Ni. I'll try for a thorough answer of your post:


My fulcrum of self-perception is the point where my eyesight starts. This is where I percieve myself to be in space. My sight is the focus of most of my physical attention. My hearing is something I think of as a kind of radar. Overall my senses are very well connected to each other and they work in tandem to pinpoint the physical world around me and the objects that move around. I'm very big on movement, things that move is what I will always focus on. If something is still I usually don't notice it unless I'm looking for it. I once failed to notice a construction site that I pass by everyday on my way to work until the bulding was complete.
I don't think what sense you preferably use has something to do with type. For me, hearing gives me a sense of reality more than anything else.
The way you describe your perception if the outer world is compatible with Se. Ne would focus more on trends and possibilities it sees in the world, and you focus more on actual details.


I am most of the time disconnected from the world around me. I spend alot of time in my head, imagining things and sorting though ideas I have and having dialogues with myself about things I'm currently pondering, trying to debate the ideas from as many angles as I can. I use alot of imagery in my thoughts, I tend to reason spatially, i.e. I make pictures in my mind which I can manipulate almost as if I was writing or drawing on a piece of paper. My thinking is very visual.
I do the same. I don't know how exactly this relates to functions though.


I often try to imagine myself in different situations, when I'm take an action in the physical world I see the entire chain of events laid out before me, I also see alot of the alternative pathways there, and sometimes I can even predict where trouble is likely to appear, this part of me is very hard to explain. The simplest way would be to describe it as a hunch, but it doesn't really work that way for me, it feels calculated somehow, as if I had an advisor within me who was working with information that I don't have. Over my life I have learned to trust in this advisor alot in everything from mathematics to strategic gaming. I seem to know things that I'm not supposed to know all the time, and I have no idea where I picked them up. For instance I know several passwords that I shouldn't really have access to, I don't know how I can know, but I still do.

[...]

My thoughts are mostly not in the form of language. I think in motions and images. There is also something wierd in my visual thinking that is very hard for me to explain. I see something that is invisible and it's moving in different ways as I ponder different problems. The best way I can explain it is that it's the mind version of feeling the current in a flow of water, it's hard to explain exactly how it operates but a great deal of my insights comes from 'looking' at these streams, but I don't know how I get to conclusions from doing it. I'm sorry that I can not be more descriptive about it, I just don't understand it well enough on a rational level to be able to describe it. It operates mostly on it's own and basically just spits the solution in my face.
Ah, the wonders of Ni! There is kind of an internal system of connections inside the human brain, and Ni allows us to tap into that system. It's kind of like a black box: You have some input - a problem to solve - and it gives you output - a solution, but it's hard to see how this was accomplished internally. All we get is that vague impression of strings of information, that are paths through a vast system of connections. It's not completely impossible that you're actually an INJ, but as you seem rather surprised and bewildered by Ni, I think it's your tertiary function that you have started exploring and becoming more aware of. Still, maybe you could tell me whether you experienced this kind of thinking from childhood? Or have you just recently begun to reflect on it?


I experience a distinct boundary between physical reality and my own mindworld. When I'm not focusing on the world around me it is almost as if a fog goes down before my eyes. I see see the world but I'm not really paying attention to it. When I'm turned inwards like this I can sometimes get stuck and just sit there until something snaps me out of it. It is not like being asleep, there is mental activity going on, but it's not focused on the world around me.
Again, I can relate. I thought this was normal for introverts - as long as you still come back to the outside world for a reasonable amount of time.


When it comes to remembering things I usually just remember the leverage points that got me to the conclusion in the first place. Once I've learned something I usually don't forget it, I can often recite things like song lyrics from memory alone, if I've payed attention to them that is. If I have forgotten details about something I can usually recall them again by focusing intensely on it. I can vividly remember things that my senses have picked up. If someone mumbles I can replay the sound in my head until I can make out it's meaning.
When Se (or maybe Se+Ni) is used for memory keeping, you usually remember by reliving past experiences.


When learning things I usually have alot of problems in the beginning, but once a leverage point is fixed in my mind I tend to learn very quickly. Things usually just snaps in place for me, I'm not very methodical when it comes to aquiring new knowledge. I don't usually get over things I don't understand from doing hard work, my understanding comes instantly from sudden realizations. Once I know something I usually tend to think in terms of axioms. If I get an axiom that is false, my entire understanding of the system usually collapses and I have to rebuild it from another axiom. Usually full understanding about a subject is based on many different ideas working in conjunction with the new idea, providing leverage to the new tools.
Sounds like a very Ti way of thinking to me, at least the thinking in axioms part.


When interacting with other humans I usually see them as a package of options, not completely unlike chess pieces. Knowing a person for me is much like when someone learns how chess pieces can move and what special abilities they have. The chessboard analogy isn't entirerly bad. Most people are content with being pawns, they run headfirst into things and just try to hold their ground until they die, they can't really look back and they can't move foward faster than the other pawns around them. One thing I've learned though is to never underestimate a pawn, if left to their own devices they will promote to something more powerful. In a way we all start out as pawns and strive for promotion. The funny thing is that even if you as a pawn can eventually become the most powerful piece on the board, the king will still be the most important, it turns out that there can only be one king. But I'm slipping away from the subject....
Just out of interest: Who is the king, in your opinion?


As for faith and religion, I do not really believe in any of it. People talking about gods and spirits annoys me, especially when they do so in an authoritarian way. From my own personal observations, the encouragement to believe in any diety or supreme beings only serves as the means of conforming people into a system where they can be controlled. A system which dictates morals, laws, emotions, ideas and purpose based on nothing more than an imaginative authority that can neither be seen, heard nor experienced. It's safe to say that I'm an atheist.
I know that many approach religion from a traditionalist or emotional perspective, but there is much more to belief than that. There are sound rational arguments for the existence of God, as well as against it. Of course, what you choose to believe is entirely your own business. But should you ever wish to discuss this, feel free to PM me.


If you think I'm bitter, I guess you are correct. I can already see the answers this thread will generate towards me, and let me assure you that there is not a single piece of criticism you can put against me that I have not already thought of myself; most of it would be true anyway, and I already see it coming.
You certainly sound bitter, but everyone is in a hard spot in his life once in a while. And you seem to be working to find an answer for it, and not whining around. I can see how you are searching for meaning, and questioning your goals in life. It is hard - I've been there myself - but it can help you to become a better and more mature person.


It's amusing how my ambition to explain how I think got completely sidetracked/destroyed by thinking about other people. I guess that goes hand in hand with me not really being able to handle my own emotions in a healthy manner.
Your opinions of other people tell me a lot about yourself. We thinkers have our problems with articulating emotions; it's nothing shameful, just something for us to work on.


I don't think I'm an ENTP. If I am I must be an extremely shy extrovert, and that just seems silly. So I'm stuck between INTP and ISTP. That could easily be solved by comparing Ne and Se. I will mark the parts I agree with.
I don't think that's very conclusive. Much of what you marked for Ne could be attributed to Ni as well; and I think you are focusing on that intuitive part of yourself very much right now (judging from your posts here), which could make you concentrate on your intuitive side in tests.


The biggest problem with my typing is probably that I'm secondguessing all my conclusions all the time. A more confident person would probably just go with whatever type the first test indicated. I want to be absolutely sure, perhaps it's a fools errand. Maybe I should just drop the entire thing and let one of the tests decide, but that would be like allowing myself to lose. I've asked at other forums aswell and people generally think that I'm an introverted intuitive.

Perhaps I'm just overdoing it. Right now for me the scales are being measured between INTP and ISTP. Those are the only two types it could be based on the information I've been reading so far.
Yes, I think your taking this a little to serious. MBTI is a useful tool, but nothing more than that, and certainly no absolute truth to build your life on.

I recommend reading this: dominant-tertiary-loops-common-personality-disorders, especially the part about Ti-Ni. I have a feeling that you might relate to it.
 

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Ah, the wonders of Ni! There is kind of an internal system of connections inside the human brain, and Ni allows us to tap into that system. It's kind of like a black box: You have some input - a problem to solve - and it gives you output - a solution, but it's hard to see how this was accomplished internally. All we get is that vague impression of strings of information, that are paths through a vast system of connections. It's not completely impossible that you're actually an INJ, but as you seem rather surprised and bewildered by Ni, I think it's your tertiary function that you have started exploring and becoming more aware of. Still, maybe you could tell me whether you experienced this kind of thinking from childhood? Or have you just recently begun to reflect on it?
I relate alot to Ni descriptions and I'm fascinated by texts such as Tao Te Ching.

The problem for me has always been the difficulty I have with justifying my standpoints for others in a way they can understand. In school I would just extract answers to questions without really mapping the thought processes for those around me in a way that they could understand. This often lead to huge arguments and me being voted down by the majority of the group, only to later discover that I was infact right when the answers to the questions were reviewed. Yet still, I was not listened to the next time that such events occured and the cycle kept repeating. Most obvious example of this was once when we sat down in groups and answered questions that were formulated to trick you. I've always been able to see right through that kind of semantics, but my peers was not able to. Each question was a huge argument between me and the rest of the group.

I see alot of problems with Ni. Particulary when you have to get permission for an idea you want to implement. There is absolutely nothing more annoying than getting a "hunch" about something and having the countermeasures blocked because you can't justify them, then the problem that was forseen plays out exactly like predicted. It makes me not only look arrogant, but it also makes me feel stupid and incompetent, not for the sake of not actually knowing what to do, but the sake of not being able to persuade others to put more faith in my actions.

That being said there are problems with Se aswell, namely the lack of a long term perspective, and the understanding of cause and effect.

Ti seems great, but it's cold logic comes at the price of disconnecting from others.

While Fe is great at connecting with people and create harmony, it makes a person susceptible to peerpreassure. That leads to not being able to execute tasks out of fear of being rejected if you ask me. It can also lead to enforcement of redundant rituals.

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I read the link you posted about tertiary loops. I could very well be an ISTP who is stuck in a loop between Ti and Ni, that would certainly explain my disability to truly commit to any thoughts. Perhaps a better approach to typing would be to look at what actually needs to improve. I would certainly like to have a much better Se. My lack of external focus is what bothers me the most. I have very weak Fe and Si but I don't really feel hindered by them in the same manner as I am with the extroverted percieving functions.

This article actually sums up some of the problems; ISTP - INTP/INTJ
The core of the problem is that I test as INTJ/INTP, But I could just aswell be ISTP.

One interesting aspect is that ISTP and INTJ uses the same interactions style. But so does INFJ and they have the some cognitive processes as an ISTP. INFJ seems unlikely. Using Fe pains me to no end, it makes me feel silly.

For now I will settle on ISTP, and try to work on my Se a bit more. At least now I have good justifications for doing so. Thanks for the help. It's much appreciated.

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I know that many approach religion from a traditionalist or emotional perspective, but there is much more to belief than that. There are sound rational arguments for the existence of God, as well as against it. Of course, what you choose to believe is entirely your own business. But should you ever wish to discuss this, feel free to PM me.
Be careful what you ask for :crazy:. I might just bite on that. I've always tried to understand what it is that makes it so compelling to believe in supreme beings.
 

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The problem for me has always been the difficulty I have with justifying my standpoints for others in a way they can understand. In school I would just extract answers to questions without really mapping the thought processes for those around me in a way that they could understand. This often lead to huge arguments and me being voted down by the majority of the group, only to later discover that I was infact right when the answers to the questions were reviewed. Yet still, I was not listened to the next time that such events occured and the cycle kept repeating. Most obvious example of this was once when we sat down in groups and answered questions that were formulated to trick you. I've always been able to see right through that kind of semantics, but my peers was not able to. Each question was a huge argument between me and the rest of the group.
To some extent, this is a problem of both Ti and Ni. Ti is based on a very personal perception of what is logical and true, and not focused on relating this to others, and Ni gives you answers, but not the way how these answers were achieved. The key to communicate this to others is your extraverted judging function. I do it through Te, and for you it would be Fe. It's rather difficult to utilize your weaker functions, but I found that with time, when you just try, you get better at it.


I see alot of problems with Ni. Particulary when you have to get permission for an idea you want to implement. There is absolutely nothing more annoying than getting a "hunch" about something and having the countermeasures blocked because you can't justify them, then the problem that was forseen plays out exactly like predicted. It makes me not only look arrogant, but it also makes me feel stupid and incompetent, not for the sake of not actually knowing what to do, but the sake of not being able to persuade others to put more faith in my actions.

That being said there are problems with Se aswell, namely the lack of a long term perspective, and the understanding of cause and effect.

Ti seems great, but it's cold logic comes at the price of disconnecting from others.

While Fe is great at connecting with people and create harmony, it makes a persn susceptible to peerpreassure. That leads to not being able to execute tasks out of fear of being rejected if you ask me. It can also lead to enforcement of redundant rituals.
All functions have their advantages and disadvantages. But I think as soon as we know about it, we can work with it and make the best of what we are. That's the great thing about personality theory.
As for Ni, at least as a Ni dominant you can learn to find the steps that lead to your hunches, it just takes a bit of practice. Usually I imagine that I have to explain my idea to somebody, and then my Ni comes up with a solution to that problem.


For now I will settle on ISTP, and try to work on my Se a bit more. At least now I have good justifications for doing so. Thanks for the help. It's much appreciated.
I wish you success. :happy:


Be careful what you ask for :crazy:. I might just bite on that. I've always treid to understand what it is that makes it so compelling to believe in supreme beings.
I wouldn't have written it if I didn't mean it. I like to have my world view challenged, it helps me improve it. My offer stands.
 
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