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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Thank you for reading this far! I am endeavoring to quantify my motivations, and I think the Enneagram can help with this.

I'm truly grateful for any assistance you may offer- however, you should know that I will not accept any of your opinions as truth until I can see the same thing in myself. Essentially this means it is likely I won't understand my whole picture until my understanding of the Enneagram system improves to a sufficient level where I can type people somewhat accurately.

Your opinions are extremely useful, and therefore you should probably not do anything differently than usual.

Once again, thank you, and if you are even considering asking questions in clarification or for specification please do so!


1. What drives you in life? What do you look for?

I answered this last, because I don't really know what I should say. Generally, I am driven to be myself, the essence of which is to complex to convey.

What do I look for? I look at everything, and derive meaning from what I see.

I don't feel like this question was as helpful to me or as clear as the others.

2. What do you hope to accomplish in your life?

I have the potential to master something and make my mark in the world. However, this also entails personal mastery and making a positive impact on those in my bubble of existence. I want to be the best I can be in all social roles I hold or will hold, and I want to help people on their path of personal growth and mastery.

I realize this is rather general, but any specifics would either give you an unbalanced perspective or might not be entirely what I mean them to be because I don't know yet.

3. What do you hope to avoid doing or being? What values are important to you?

I do not want to be seen as someone who let's their emotions control them (though this has its flaws), but I am certainly not emotionless.

I seek to avoid miscommunication (On the other side. I know I can always come around.), because it leads to flawed assumptions, which in turn leads to actions taken for the wrong reason.

I want to avoid going through the motions of life, wasting away doing something without meaning. However, I frequently find myself after reflecting for great periods of time and realize I need to actually do something- so I implement what I've been pondering into my life.

I want to avoid disregarding people who I find obstinately irritating, dogmatic, shallow, myopic, etc. Its hard for me to go deep outside of the small circles I know, but

Love is important to me. I do not believe there has been, is, or will be anyone in whom I see no intrinsic value- other people can see this way if they choose to, and I want to encourage that.

4. What are your biggest fears (not including phobias)? Why?

I fear that people will misunderstand me or see me as something I'm not.

I fear that I might mislead someone or not be properly equipped to help someone who asks me.

(above can be perfectionistic to an extent)

I'm afraid of breaking expectations, perceived or otherwise, by being my true self, even if I know it's what I should do.

I fear being 'average', even though that's impossible. It chills me to think about how I would be if I were born average, ignorant of my state and happy to be there.

I'm afraid of the primal side of me, cascade of pure emotion, and what it could turn me into. This fear is different because the likelihood of me being consumed by my unconscious self is low due to my self awareness and control.

Sometimes I fear I will miss an opportunity, but I know I will always do my best and be myself no matter what happens.

These are fears I have, but I certainly don't face them frequently, and they aren't that 'big' of fears because I can deal with them without too much effort.

5. How do you want others to see you? How do you see yourself?

I want others to see me as who I am and approve. I'm told I'm friendly, insightful, deep, quiet (aloof by those who don't know me well), a leader, athletic, clever, witty, unique, intelligent, analytical, goofy, intense, and more people look up to me than I realize. I'm definitely seen differently than other people on more than a few levels. In all of my groups of friends, nobody really makes fun of me (even playfully) even though practically everyone else is the 'target' at some point or another. Or someone will frequently complain that one of our group is too spacey, even if I've been thousand-yard-staring for the past five minutes, and not bring me up. Regardless, I'm still a part of the group and usually one of the 'centerpieces' that defines, leads, connects, and leaves a legacy.

Much of how I see myself is how others see me. I think many/most/all of the observations I've listed are somewhat true, and would be even if I didn't know what other people thought.
I typically see myself positively, but I don't often think about how I see myself- it's there, but in the background.

Even as a child, I have seen myself as seperate from other people on some level. I am unsure if all children do these things, but at one point I was asking other people if they had to go to the bathroom too like I did.

I have also realized that I see myself as above the vast majority of other people. I believe all people have the same level of intrinsic value, but I don't think skill, intelligence, or capacity for understanding are components of that. The few people whom I see eye to eye with are both ENFJs. This leads me to believe that somehow Ni and the capacity to understand through perspective is involved. I see myself as being able to understand better than most people, but I do not cling to that fact in arrogance- I just see it as truth and attempt to help other people see things more clearly. This might be considered arrogant, but I don't see it as such.

6. What makes you feel your best? What makes you feel your worst?

I feel my best when I gain self-awareness, improve my perspectives, do something uniquely skillful or otherwise interesting that invokes awe or impresses others, when I help someone else solve a problem, when I think about how much I'm learning about people (and thus the world) through typology/JCF...

I feel bad when I know I could have done better, when I have to rely on others, when other people who don't know me try to hug me, when I procrastinate, when I let someone I care about down, when I'm

7. Describe how you experience each of: a) anger; b) shame; c) anxiety.

a) I cannot remember the last time I've been angry. I think too many people get angry over things that they shouldn't be angry about, but there are things that would make me truly angry if they happened. However, one of the times I was angry was in middle school, in the lunch line. I was near the front of the line, and a counselor was at the front making sure we were orderly and waiting to tell us when we could go in. Some of the 'cool' kids came up and cut into the front of the line. This was wrong and unfair, so I told them they should move to the back. As you can guess, they refused. I went up to the counselor and asked him if he could make them go to the back, but he just shrugged and said something to the effect of 'it doesn't matter'. Now I was upset, and went back to my spot. I asked again if the kids would move, and they said no... so I grabbed them and moved them behind me. Then they shoved their way in front of me again, and I moved them again. The counselor didn't really notice. Eventually we started going into the cafeteria, and I threw the kid/s farther behind me then before and quickly entered the cafeteria ahead of them, and ate my lunch quietly while retreating into my head, nerves pounding, to ponder the situation.

b) I think I feel shame fairly frequently (and avoid situations that might be shameful), because I am concerned with how others see me. For instance, if I let someone down, I feel greatly ashamed for betraying their trust in who I am (not that I do this often, but it occasionally happens). When I hang out with my girlfriend I prefer to be somewhere private and I abhor the thought of being walked in on, which has happened. I felt really bad because I did not want the friend who walked in to see me undergoing such emotion, but my GF told me it was ok (the other friend is her best friend) and that she did not feel ashamed and had no regrets. Her perspective is helping me to be more comfortable about showing affection to her, and I like that because it removes the shame.

c) Worry? I don't really worry. I know my mom and dad worry a lot about small things they might not need to worry about (inferior Ne). I think anxiety is a rather consuming fear of how a variable or different variables may go wrong. I know everything will be okay no matter what happens.

8. Describe how you respond to each of: a) stress; b) unexpected change; c) conflict.

a) I don't know if I respond to stress as much as I just experience stress. For instance, when I procrastinate for 6 hours doing something I know will take less than an hour that is due in 6.5 hours, I sit in my chair and look for funny videos on youtube, or some activity that is very 'surface level'. I would not read a book, play video games, or explore typology because it would imply completely disregarding what I'm supposed to be doing. Just looking at lolcats or fails is shallow enough that it flies below the radar. After frantically finishing my homework, I look at all of the time I wasted, feel ashamed at myself, and go to bed glad that the stress is over.

b) I don't mind unexpected change if it's for the better or if there is good reason for it- I might make suggestions for improving the change. If it's detrimental change, I will argue against it.

c) I believe the vast majority of conflict is the result of poor communication and understanding, and totally unecessary. I do my best to mediate that where I can, but my friends are my friends because we get along, not because we fight, so there isn't much opportunity for mediation. I really despise unecessary conflict and that is one of the things I want to use my knowledge of typology to eliminate.

That being said, sometimes people just need to be confronted- but I will not make the confrontation more or less than what it should be.

9. Describe your orientation to: a) authority; b) power. How do you respond to these?

I respect authority for making the wheels of societies and organizations turn, but I think they have a strong tendency to abuse their responsibility. I think too much power is given to authority to make important decisions that affect too many people. But I will obey laws I see reason obeying (Pretty much all of them: I never speed, drink under age [though I do not believe the age should be so high], do drugs, etc).

Power... there are so many types of power it is difficult to pinpoint my position on it. I guess I frequently find myself in situations where I have more power than others. More physical power, more mental power, more willpower, more ability to be successful. I make no boasts of my advantages. It would be unfair of me to be forced to restrict my capabilities, but I sometimes voluntarily tone it down to give others more of a chance. Too many people seek power as an end, and too many people use power incorrectly as a means.

10. What is your overall outlook on life and humanity?

Humanity has so much potential, but it is lost in meaningless pursuits, unnecessary squabbles, stereotypes, narrow-mindedness, and assumptions. Life should be for improvement and growth of yourself and others. I see my bias for the metaphysical, but I sincerely think the conceptual world is more important.

11. Discuss an event that has impacted your life significantly; more importantly, how you responded to it.

In the middle of last semester (first year of college) I took the MBTI in an introductory class. I looked at my test result, and I had a feeling that can only be described by saying it was a true and wonderful revelation that changed my life forever for the better. I knew why I was who I was, and I could see myself clearly for the first time ever. I saw that I was not being true to myself, and had not been for quite some while. So I spent much more time studying JCF and MBTI than the considerable amount I spent on my classes (I go to a very specialized and highly ranked engineering school. My classes are no joke...) There has not been a day since that eventful moment where I have not improved my understanding of JCF/MBTI and who I am in relation to that. My perspective has changed greatly for the better, and even though I am in a difficult position to do what I need in life, I see paths to succeed and I'm taking them. This event of self-discovery has set my life on a course for greatness, and I would be in a terribly stressful and pitiful place if it had not occurred.

12. Comment on your relationship with trust.

I trust myself. Most people I will trust initially, and will allow to keep my trust until they betray it... if my trust is betrayed, I think it would be very difficult to give it back even if I forgave the person. I am glad this has not happened. People who know me trust me and feel comfortable around me. They see that I'm someone who has everyone's best interests in mind, and that my view revolves around collective trust.

13. List some of the traits you: a) like; b) dislike most about yourself.

a) Athletic, intelligent, INFJ, great family, great friends, I can see many perspectives, I'm unique, I've been extremely fortunate in how and where I've been raised, altruistic, seeing some good in everyone

b) I can procrastinate, I am not the best test taker (forgetting small but important details when it matters, even if I have a wonderful understanding of the material...), I'm not the best at everything (This seems to be an unconscious feeling. I can consciously differentiate it and reason around feeling this way.)

14. What do you see or notice in others that most people don't?

Either they notice and don't care, or I possess vast insight into the reasons behind what most people are doing and what it is they are actually doing more so than the people themselves. Sometimes I try to explain to someone what it is they're doing or what they want, but they blow me off and go back to ignorance. Other times it's like a lightbulb goes off in their heads and they are amazed. Usually I keep these things to myself and use the knowledge to guide my actions or improve my understanding of how and why people work the way they do.

15. If a stranger insults you, how do you respond/feel? What if they compliment you?

I would very likely ignore the stranger and his insult, unless the insult was truthful, in which case I would continue to observe the stranger and reflect on what was said. If the stranger was going to be around for a while, I would instead reply by asking the basis on which they insult me, and if baseless, prove them wrong and/or attempt to quiet them to keep the annoyance down.

If a stranger compliments me, I would sincerely thank them and reflect on the compliment, as it comes from someone who does not know me and was completely unbiased towards me. It could be a gem of truth, but it could also just be some courtesy.

16. What's something you are: a) thankful you have; b) wish you could have? Why?

a) I'm thankful I have existence. I have had a positive impact on so many people's lives and I can imagine how much worse their lives would be had I not been around.

b) I wish I could have Force powers and a lightsaber. It would give me the combative power to prevent bad things from happening if necessary, to resist powers and authorities that might prevent me from doing what is right, and Force sensitivity would give me a skillset / reason to disregard becoming an engineer (something I don't really want). I would not need to take tests or learn meaningless material to attain the skill level/institutional backing I need to make a difference. The learning would come from within myself- something I am very capable of and quite comfortable doing.

The only drawback is that my best friend wouldn't have Force powers too. So I guess the 'thing' I wish I could have is two lightsabers and for myself and my friend to become empowered.
 

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Hmmm... @Mercurial Spectre - I'm getting some mixed messages here, but I shall share my opinion. I really like your post, by the way. Very clear. Good details. Do visit the links that Wake posted, because they are extremely helpful. I'm not certain how much you have looked into the Enneagram yet, and it may be helpful to read up more if you haven't really done so yet.

I see Six as your Head fix. Of that I am pretty sure. It's up in the air as to whether Six is your core or not. I saw lots of troubleshooting. You're good at sensing the motivations of people. You can see misunderstandings before they happen and hate them. You value the opinions of others. You mentioned quite a few things that I can seriously relate to. I saw, as I mention more below, Nine things. However, I should tell you that a healthy Six looks rather like a Nine.

I see One or Nine as your gut fix. Nine because of your relationship with anger and conflict. However, those things can also turn out to be Six things. It all depends on the motivation behind why you dislike conflict and what you do before, during, and after conflict. I see One because I see standards that you have set for yourself (and others as well, although I think - just guessing here - that you might be more forgiving towards are than you are of yourself. Not sure, though). You have a perfectionist side to you and feel shame when you have not met certain expectations you have of yourself. You know you've done wrong. I think. I could be wrong, here. But your gut fix could either be 1w9 or 9w1.

I am trying to figure out what is your Image fix. I think it is Three. 3w4 or 4w3.

As for which of these things is your core, I am trying to make up my mind as to what motivations I see. I cannot tell whether you are more motivated by anger or fear.

So do look into those types, especially with the links Wake posted. ^^ What do you think?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I see Six as your Head fix. Of that I am pretty sure. It's up in the air as to whether Six is your core or not. I saw lots of troubleshooting. You're good at sensing the motivations of people. You can see misunderstandings before they happen and hate them. You value the opinions of others. You mentioned quite a few things that I can seriously relate to. I saw, as I mention more below, Nine things. However, I should tell you that a healthy Six looks rather like a Nine.

I see One or Nine as your gut fix. Nine because of your relationship with anger and conflict. However, those things can also turn out to be Six things. It all depends on the motivation behind why you dislike conflict and what you do before, during, and after conflict. I see One because I see standards that you have set for yourself (and others as well, although I think - just guessing here - that you might be more forgiving towards are than you are of yourself. Not sure, though). You have a perfectionist side to you and feel shame when you have not met certain expectations you have of yourself. You know you've done wrong. I think. I could be wrong, here. But your gut fix could either be 1w9 or 9w1.

I am trying to figure out what is your Image fix. I think it is Three. 3w4 or 4w3.

As for which of these things is your core, I am trying to make up my mind as to what motivations I see. I cannot tell whether you are more motivated by anger or fear.

@Mercurial Spectre I would say a rather relaxed and objective 2, this would probably be referred to as a 2w1. I seen reason to not agree with 9, 7, or 3 (ordered most likely other possibilities to unlikely). I can go into a detailed explanation if necessary.

Here are some good links to read up on types:
Typewatch Enneagram: Typewatch Enneagram Type Descriptions
the enneagram ...info from the underground
and also each type's forum has an article written by Timeless, which is great also.
Thanks guys! Your help is wonderful. Timeless' descriptions are great and I have already read them all at least once. Today I went through them again, and thoroughly read and analyzed the two links worth of information a few times.

I'll start with things I mostly do not relate to, and transition into things I relate to interspersed with insights and observations about myself.

I don't relate to the 5's penchant for acquiring power for its own sake. Although intellectually curious, everything I involve myself with has some level of practicality (Though others may not see it. I define practical as having use to me, so investigating a concept simply for the sake of understanding it better is practical.). Also I don't think I share the same fear or worry that my emotions will overwhelm me. However, 5 is frequently one of the top types I receive on Enneagram tests (on one of the longer and more involved tests, I get 2, 5, 4, and 9 as my top types and all within 2 points of each other, and 6 is up there too)

I do not relate to most of the description of type 7. I have faith in the future, but it is not blind. I am certainly not consumed by my wants. I am not shameless, insensitive, or cocky. After reading about type 7s, I think my ENTP sister might be one, and I am different from her. I see through the possibilities of future actions, and the way I think contrasts with the 7 ideology. I'm very likely not a 7.

I am not a 'work hard play hard' person. From what I have read, 8s appear to have a 'me vs world' mentality that I do not share. I consider myself apart from the world, but more as an observer who can choose to continue observing from the inside, or choose to use my outside perspective to change things. I do not share the same want for dominance and fear of losing control that 8s do. Being controlled is acceptable as long as the person in charge is at least as competent as I would be (or competent enough to meet my satisfaction). If the person in charge is incompetent, I will strongly consider paths that would restore competence in the leadership position. I'm not an 8.

I relate to some of the 1 description, but I do not relate to the essence of type 1. I have high standards for myself that I frequently do not measure up to, but other times I underestimate myself. 1s seem to avoid relaxation because it is 'an embodiment of idleness' and an indulgence that should not be allowed. While I believe relaxation is a very subjective term, I don't have trouble relaxing. My relaxation is typically an activity that lacks pressure and has some sort of meaning to me (like sitting around campus with my laptop finding my Enneagram type). I think relaxation can help people zoom out and improve their understanding of the whole picture. In one of the type 1 descriptions, it is mentioned that 1s are honest people not skilled in the art of deception. I consider myself a very honest person (I believe lying is wrong, and I have a somewhat deontological view on it) but I find myself very skilled at manipulating people. I easily see their limits, motivations, and inner workings, and use that to guide my interactions and bring about my desired outcome. I can also use other people's incomplete grasp of who I am to my advantage, but I will not lie, and I will not mislead them on purpose. Sometimes I find myself manipulating naturally, but I never do so in a harmful manner with harmful consequences.

On a different note, I think many people I interact with don't know what to think of me. I don't give out a lot of myself, and what I do give out they are seemingly unable to piece together into something they are familiar with.

Ones - the enneagram ...info from the underground

These descriptions are very helpful in my study. One of the most helpful portions is the 'Possible Mistypes' section where it contrasts the type in question with the eight other types. Through those comparisons I am able to piece together what differentiates each type from the others, and further understand the Enneagram and where I might fit in.

Back to the types...

The first sentence in one of the Type 6 descriptions is "People of enneatype Six are essentially insecure, as though life has never quite provided them with a proper footing, as though there existed nothing, either internally or externally, which could serve as a solid foundation." Many type six descriptions describe people who have at their core a 'deep-seated knot of anxiety' and an eternal awareness and fear of worst case scenarios. If I try, I can imagine worst case scenarios, but why think about them if I know my positive scenarios will work? Maybe my worst case scenarios just aren't really as bad as other people's. I don't think there's any situation I could not work with, and I do not see myself as insecure. I relate somewhat to Timeless' 6w5 description, but I think I have a similar 'what' with a different 'why'. At the moment I am unsure why I can be independent, but I have the feeling it isn't because I think people can be two-faced or deceitful. I just don't feel like I'm battling the fear and doubt the type 6 descriptions all talk about. I like challenging the motives and beliefs of others, as 6s are said to sometimes do, but I understand how others could and will overreact to my perceived assault, and I use that to my advantage when helping them see what I want them to see and grow.

"The vice of Type Six is fear, and when a Type Six succumbs to fear, everything and everyone can look like a competitor in the game of survival. This stress arrow causes the Six to adopt the negative traits of a Three; that is, they become competitive, arrogant and cut-throat." I really don't relate to this 'Stress Arrow to Type 3' in Timeless' description. Perhaps I have never succumbed to fear, but I still can't see this happening in myself.

I find that I feel very 'at home' reading type 4 descriptions, and I am unsure whether or not INFJs have a tendency for this that is unrelated to their actual Enneagram (because data shows that a significant number of INFJs identify with type 4).

"Of all the types, Fours are the most acutely aware that the persona is a construct – something which has been created and can thus be re-created."

I consider myself very aware of this fact, and my knowledge of it is why I am now endeavoring to be my true self. The 'persona' is something the outside sees- the true self lies in the essence of your being, something you cannot change, and as a manifestation of the true self the persona is incapable of perfectly capturing who you are. Simply put, I want my persona to be as accurate as possible.

"Fours strive for authenticity, for an expression of themselves which is “true,” but the image they portray is, by its nature, delusory, and inevitably fails to convey the true depths and complexity of the self."

I don't relate to this as much- I am not trying to be something I'm not, but I know that most people (likely everyone, including myself) will never fully understand my complexity and depth. Other people will have difficulty because I have different personas for different groups, and if they cannot grasp the small portions of myself they show to the outside world, there is little chance of them finding out exactly who I am beneath the surface (and thus the entirety of who I am). This position of mine is hard to describe because I simply don't know everything about it. The extent to which I am knowledgeable of some of my depths is solely by realizing they're there.

When pondering myself, I realize that I resent being generally categorized with other people, and that I enjoy feeling unique. I think this is partly because it reinforces my notion that I am different from everyone else, but also because the difference between me and most other people is that I am superior in some respects (so I perceive).

"Fours with a Three wing are generally more outgoing, practical and competitive than Fours with a Five wing. They often have a dramatic flair and tend to be emotionally expressive. Fours with a Five wing are more withdrawn and, while still predominantly emotional, more likely to be intellectuals who infuse their feelings with ideas. They tend to be introspective, often to the point of self-absorption."

I don't think I'm dramatic, and I'm only emotionally expressive towards those I'm close to. However, I consider myself a withdrawn person (who is able to be outside, but never fully so), emotional, and I relate to being 'an intellectual who infuses his feelings with ideas'. I am very introspective, and I think I can get very 'self-absorbed' in my pondering. But I am currently unsure whether this is 4w5 or not.


"People of Enneatype Three are adaptable, ambitious, self-confident, focused, success oriented and image conscious."

I relate to some of these things. Especially adaptable, self-confidant, and success oriented (I define success very subjectively, seeing success where many see failure and failure where many see success)

"Threes are people who adopt an ideal of success and attempt to embody it. This ideal frequently comes from their parents, and many Threes unwittingly live out their parents' unlived lives."

"Many Threes subtly and even unconsciously alter their self-presentation to appeal to the particular person or audience with whom they are engaging. The problem is that in the process of doing so, they sometimes lose touch with who they really are."

"The central deception of the Three however, is that which the Three engages in by mistaking the image he or she projects, for the reality of an inner life, and for seducing others into making that same mistake."

However, I do not relate to the above descriptions. I do not adopt someone else's ideal of success. My success is unique to me, and while I feel pressured to make my parents happy, I think they will be happy with my true self. The second and third bits rub against me the most. I do not believe I change myself to better appeal to others. I am a strong believer in authenticity, and I am always myself. If I'm trying to appeal to someone, I think I try to make them want to be more like me. The third sentence reminds me of creating some kind of illusion to persuade others. I may have different faces, but the faces are genuinely mine, and the actions I take in those situations are what I would do in those situations. Other people may see a persona of mine as an illusion because they are only seeing a part of the whole, but they are the ones creating the illusion. Illusions aren't real, and I am.

"Threes with the Two wing are warmer and more people oriented than those with a Four wing. They are generous and expansive and usually have a large number of friends and acquaintances. Classic extroverts, they intuitively know how to connect with others at an emotional level; they tend to use this ability to further their personal and professional goals. Threes with the Four wing tend to focus their energy on projects rather than people, although they still have a fair amount of social energy. The introspective energy of the Four wing is difficult for the Three to integrate. Consequently, Threes with a Four wing sometimes attempt to escape it's pressure by way of workaholism. They tend to be more conflicted about matters relating to intimacy than Threes with a Two wing."

I am not a classic extrovert. I don't really relate to 3w4 either- I am easily introspective, and I certainly do not attempt to avoid introspection through workaholism.

I relate to optimism, dislike of conflict, and the loving demeanor that type 9s have.

"The central problem for Nines revolves around the fact that their desire to maintain peace and to avoid conflict is compulsive. As the potential for conflict in life is virtually ubiquitous, the Nine's inability to confront it forcefully and deal with it effectively, leaves the Nine at a serious disadvantage when it comes to living a full, satisfying and honest life."

But I do not compulsively avoid conflict. I am not averse to risking conflict in my relations if necessary, because I am all about personal growth, and if there is conflict when I try to help someone grow, then it usually signifies an inner turmoil that needs to be dealt with. I would rather have no conflict, but I realize it is sometimes unavoidable and I must work with it.

"While some Nines do assume positions of leadership, most Nines are not especially ambitious. They pay their dues to the world but essentially prefer to withdraw from it. They are "home bodies" who are generally devoted to their families, especially to their children. They enjoy their hobbies and appreciate some time to themselves. They generally value simplicity and cultivate the virtue of patience. They are frequently creative in a modest and unassuming way. They adopt an attitude of acceptance towards life. They don't ask for too much; sometimes they ask for too little. At a very deep level, at a level which seldom breaks through to conscious awareness, most Nines simply feel that they don't deserve too much. Nines would do well to develop a certain kind of healthy selfishness, as many of their difficulties turn on the fact that they are too selfless."

This is not really me. I don't consider being an authority figure as part of my ambition, but I definitely have ambitions. (On a side note, I would rather be outside of the authority-not authority system altogether. I typically know what's best for me to be doing, and I think the usually far to general mandates of authorities limit what I can do and how I can help myself and those within the system.) This description doesn't resonate with me, even though I share some views like patience and a similar kind of creativity (at least from my perspective). I don't ask for too much because I don't need that much. I am not one to just 'pay my dues' and withdraw to my comfort zone.

I do think I am a humble and modest person. I try to follow this mandate: "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud."

I do relate to Luke Skywalker somewhat, who is considered a 9. He (and 9 descriptions) just seem so 'hazy' sometimes and I think I might have a bit of an edge.

As of now, I relate to more than a few type 9 descriptors but I do not relate to a few key concepts or the type as a whole (I don't think I have yet related to any type as a whole.).


I also relate to type 2 more than other types, and I'm not sure if it's because I am one or if its self-giving altruistic ideals are what I seek to embody.

"It is entirely true that Twos are other oriented individuals who provide a great deal of nurturing and support to those in their charge. The Two’s self-image of being giving and helpful is not at all without merit. Twos often serve as the social “glue” which, for instance, keeps the office staff informed of everyone’s birthday - they are the ones who pass the cards around for others to sign. They are the ones who make sure that large families get together for reunions - they cook the food and strongly encourage everyone to attend. In an increasingly fractured society, they are often the ones working indefatigably to make sure that everyone is cared for."

I don't relate to the activities in this description, but I see a similar and less careaholic concept in myself. I do like being appreciated for what I do, but I don't think it's necessary, and if it is more than a little appreciation then I feel uncomfortable.

I don't think I manipulate for others' attention like 2s seem to.

"Twos with a One wing tend to be more emotionally restrained than those with a Three wing and are frequently attracted to causes as well as people. Something of the idealism of type One attaches to their giving. They can become self-righteous if they are unbalanced or don't receive the appreciation which is their due. Twos with the Three wing are more expansive, ambitious and image oriented than those with a Two wing. They are frequently competitive but are also extremely generous with their time and energy."

I can relate to 2w1 more than 2w3.



I apologize for the rather lengthy answer. I didn't realize I'd written so much until recently, but that's what thinking intensely for five hours will do to me... I think my writing gets more in-depth as it goes on, so I might have to clarify a few things later.

There are more thoughts I have, but I will hold on to them for now.

Thanks again for your assistance!
 

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@Mercurial Spectre - Oh, no need to apologize for large posts. Large posts usually means more information. More information here is a very good thing. ^^ Now, do remember that my opinion is just that - my opinion. I am not going to be 100% accurate. I am not one of those people who can fairly confidently tell you your type (some people are quite good at that). I can point you in the right direction, though. So all I can do is tell you what I can see and my experience.

Yeah, I don't think you're a Five, Seven, or Eight either.

What I am seeing right now is that you are definitely in tune with yourself. You self-reflect a lot, right? Lots of introspection. And I'm assuming you feel the need to do so. Interestingly enough, I thought I saw many hints of Fi, not so much Fe. But, you know, I could be dead wrong there too. XD Whatever the case, I see that you seem to be pretty self-aware.

Naturally, being self-aware and being somewhat of an "idealist", these things can draw us to types such as Four. Have you read this? http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-forum-individualist/55872-difference-4-6-pattern.html I thought it pretty helpful. I'm not sure about One or Nine, really, but Six and Four both have a sense of being "aware" of themselves. Sixes want to know themselves. Fours seek to understand themselves. There is a key difference there. That's not to say Sixes don/t know themselves, but they constantly want to know more and discover more about themselves. I know this applies to me. ^^

Many type six descriptions describe people who have at their core a 'deep-seated knot of anxiety' and an eternal awareness and fear of worst case scenarios. If I try, I can imagine worst case scenarios, but why think about them if I know my positive scenarios will work? Maybe my worst case scenarios just aren't really as bad as other people's. I don't think there's any situation I could not work with, and I do not see myself as insecure. I relate somewhat to Timeless' 6w5 description, but I think I have a similar 'what' with a different 'why'. At the moment I am unsure why I can be independent, but I have the feeling it isn't because I think people can be two-faced or deceitful. I just don't feel like I'm battling the fear and doubt the type 6 descriptions all talk about. I like challenging the motives and beliefs of others, as 6s are said to sometimes do, but I understand how others could and will overreact to my perceived assault, and I use that to my advantage when helping them see what I want them to see and grow.
Well, it's not like we're anxiety ridden pessimists. As for me, I know that while I am quite aware of the worst case scenarios, I am also aware of the positive. I didn't see myself as "insecure" or driven by fear. Many Sixes aren't aware of their anxiety. Not saying you are a Six - but I am going to put that out there so you can know. Every type, by the way, has insecurities. We're all insecure. It's really what we're insecure about and where we go to seek security that matters. I actually think the best of people and am extremely trusting. And I definitely relate to the statement I bolded.

Type One isn't all uptight and not relaxed, especially if the said person is 1w9. ^^ They don't think relaxation is wrong. I think many of them rather enjoy relaxation. :) Interestingly enough, I never really looked at Four as a core option for you, but I might want to mention that a healthy Four can appear to be a One... And while I don't think Four is your core, you may consider looking there. Then again, you also can come across as Nine-ish, which is what (as I mentioned before) a healthy Six can appear to be.

I don't see Three as being your core, don't worry. I was entertaining it as your image fix though. =] But Two could just as easily be your image fix.

What do you feel motivates you most? Anger, shame, or fear? And why? I think that's a good question for you to ponder. ^^ Of course, I'm supposed to be the one trying to help you figure this out. Lol.

Oh, and @Boss - what do you think (sorry to call you out)? I'm not the best at coming to a decision when typing people... >.<
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
@Mercurial Spectre, have trouble with intimacy as in letting people grow close to you?

What do you think your instinctual variants are based on the site below:
http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...-instinctual-variants-sp-sx-so-explained.html

You sound like a Social 2.
After reading about instinctual variants, I agree that I am primarily Social.

I can't decide if it is SX or SP that is secondary.

I find it difficult to relate to the 'intense energetic union' the SX describes. I can see myself doing such a thing, but that would require surrendering completely to my emotional instincts- something I am loathe to do. Ideally I would have no problem doing this, but reality is less than ideal, and I keep part of myself withdrawn to control/observe myself.

Fortunately, I have always had my basic needs met and exceeded. I have never found myself wanting of comforts, so I am unsure whether or not I'm preoccupied with my material welfare. I am athletic and fit, and I eat healthily. I like nice things, but I think I could live without them. I don't really relate that much to either SP or SX, but I think I can see more SP in what I do than SX.

I have definitely had trouble with letting people grow close to me/vice versa in the past, but it seems like I kept some kind of passive and unrealized barrier up to keep them at a distance. Now I am more conscious of myself and I see that I do have a tendency letting other people get close. I think it stems from my desire to keep knowledge of myself within a small group of those I choose to be close to me, but also that it takes energy from me to deal with people on a close level- I enjoy using that energy but I have a limited amount to give away. More thoughts on this later, possibly...

Yeah, I don't think you're a Five, Seven, or Eight either.

What I am seeing right now is that you are definitely in tune with yourself. You self-reflect a lot, right? Lots of introspection. And I'm assuming you feel the need to do so. Interestingly enough, I thought I saw many hints of Fi, not so much Fe. But, you know, I could be dead wrong there too. XD Whatever the case, I see that you seem to be pretty self-aware.

Naturally, being self-aware and being somewhat of an "idealist", these things can draw us to types such as Four. Have you read this? http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-forum-individualist/55872-difference-4-6-pattern.html I thought it pretty helpful. I'm not sure about One or Nine, really, but Six and Four both have a sense of being "aware" of themselves. Sixes want to know themselves. Fours seek to understand themselves. There is a key difference there. That's not to say Sixes don/t know themselves, but they constantly want to know more and discover more about themselves. I know this applies to me. ^^



Well, it's not like we're anxiety ridden pessimists. As for me, I know that while I am quite aware of the worst case scenarios, I am also aware of the positive. I didn't see myself as "insecure" or driven by fear. Many Sixes aren't aware of their anxiety. Not saying you are a Six - but I am going to put that out there so you can know. Every type, by the way, has insecurities. We're all insecure. It's really what we're insecure about and where we go to seek security that matters. I actually think the best of people and am extremely trusting. And I definitely relate to the statement I bolded.

Type One isn't all uptight and not relaxed, especially if the said person is 1w9. ^^ They don't think relaxation is wrong. I think many of them rather enjoy relaxation. :) Interestingly enough, I never really looked at Four as a core option for you, but I might want to mention that a healthy Four can appear to be a One... And while I don't think Four is your core, you may consider looking there. Then again, you also can come across as Nine-ish, which is what (as I mentioned before) a healthy Six can appear to be.

I don't see Three as being your core, don't worry. I was entertaining it as your image fix though. =] But Two could just as easily be your image fix.

What do you feel motivates you most? Anger, shame, or fear? And why? I think that's a good question for you to ponder. ^^ Of course, I'm supposed to be the one trying to help you figure this out. Lol.
Thanks Julia! You have given me many good things to think about.

I'm certainly NiFeTiSe. But I think it can be difficult to see how I'm getting to where I'm coming from without talking more in depth about that specifically, or in person. So I understand how you could relate your functions.

I relate to much of what is said in both the 4 and 6 descriptions.

I am not focused on my flaws, but I think I used to have problems with them I didn't realize I had before my recent and massive self-revelation.

The reason I am so interested in typology is not to know myself - I know myself very well. The personal motivation is to understand why I do the things I do, and use that understanding to improve myself. I don't use this knowledge to 'get rid of flaws' per se- the 'flaw' is simpy a part of me that is not working to my benefit, and I either change my perspective of the flaw so that it becomes a benefit, or I guide the flaw into something beneficial.

"Getting healthy 6s will get a stronger sense of self while 4s realize there’s nothing wrong with them at all."

"If they (6s) are in accordance with their own self and their own lead they are true to themselves. 4s as image-type are concerned about presenting themselves as authentic (being authentic) and of not showing off an artifical image."

I find it hard to differentiate between these contrasting mindsets. Cannot realizing there is nothing wrong with me at all also be a stronger sense of self? I also think I am more image conscious than I previously realized. I don't want other people to think I'm something other than what I truly am. I want to be true to myself, but that is essentially being authentic and not being artificial.

"For Sixes it’s about getting rid of their flaws and fixing the things that make them deviate (Of course there’s also the counter version 6 who is deliberately deviating from the norm), whereas Fours don’t know what’s wrong with them. So how could you fix it anyway? But even if it would be possible there’s a repulsion coming up because it is so deeply ingrained in them, it’s part of who they are and getting rid of it would mean getting rid of who they are."

From the link you gave me, I would say I relate more to a healthy 4 than a 6. If I was a 6 I would be under the 'deliberately deviating' category. However, my difference from the norm is not deliberate as much as it is intrinsic. I'm not an 'average' person trying to break out of the flow, I have always been out of the flow. So I don't really relate to that.

Earlier in my life, I think I would have related to type 4 in not knowing what set me apart from everyone else, and I think I associated that difference with being flawed. If I'm a 4, then I used to have shame that I was different, but I was exposed to a catalyst in a hard part of my life where I started to ask myself more questions and this caused me to see myself for what I truly am (in general), and understand that I was not flawed in my difference. Are there more places that describe healthy 4s?

Hmm... I wish I had more time to think about this right now. So far I think I relate to type 4 and 2 the most, with 6 and 9 close behind. However, when browsing the Tri-Type Descriptions, I related most to 459, 469, 259 and 269. I think I might have a connection to 5 that I haven't investigated, or I think those things are 5 related and they're not. I am also investigating more into my motivations regarding fear, shame, and anger, but I don't have the time to write those thoughts out right now (and I have the rough draft of a research paper due soon). But don't worry, I have not forgotten about them!

Anyway, there are my thoughts for the morning. Thank you, and have a nice day!

After some quality time in my head, I have begun looking at what emotion really is, and I don't know if I experience it the way I think other people do.

My face can be expressive, and I can talk intensely, so other people probably perceive me as emotive. But on my end, I don't feel like emotion is permeating my like I hear or read emotion does in people. For instance, I love my family. When I consider that love, it is like pulling the love out of a sealed container and examining it as I would a piece of machinery, specimen, or organ. The love does not 'come back to me' and I don't know it by experiencing it. Sometimes when something surprises me or is monumental, I can have typically small emotional releases that I can't help but feel in my essence. But I will quickly store it away or detach from the feeling to analyze it. With that exception, I seem to be somewhat detached from my emotions. However, I have many tones of emotion. I understand other's emotions. Even if I am somewhat detached from my emotions, I overtly display them like I see them if I feel it is appropriate. Typically though, when around people I don't really know or am focused on non-people, my expression will be neutral (brooding/melancholic to some).

These are just thoughts that might help my situation. As one final note, I will say that the emotions I express and feel are all genuine. I will not fake an emotion. Sometimes I may want to feel a certain way and try to feel that way and fail to fully capture it, but it is not manipulative, and you can usually tell I'm conflicted.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
When I went down early to the local library to tutor kids, I began reading the two Enneagram books I found...

...and wow, did I have some epiphanies. I realized that there is so much more to the reasons I do things, feelings so fundamental that I could not see how immersed I was- kind of like how you sometimes can't tell your hand is underwater if you sit really still in the bathtub. Well, I began to move my hand...

It blew my mind when I saw how I am fundamentally driven by envy. I wanted to hit myself for how obvious this seemed, but I know I couldn't have- I think. I saw how I saw other people as possessing greatness I could not match. I think it is why I am a humble person- I see others as being so much better than I, yet I long to be similar even though I feel I am impossibly separated. It is why I care for other people, because I deeply comprehend and genuinely appreciate their beauty that I feel is lacking in myself.

Jesus says, "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

I feel as though I have looked into a mirror and realized the log in my eye. But it is no simple task to remove it. How does one live with such knowledge of their flaws, but is unable to separate himself from them? I do not want to lose my ability to see the beauty in others, because I think that is the heart of what is good and valuable in me, but I am unsure how to disconnect this completely from my envy.


Here is a quote from My Best Self: Using the Enneagram to Free the Soul by Hurley and Dobson, the first book I read:

“Their (type 2’s) source of energy and personal self-worth is centered in the outer world. Therefore, it’s imperative that they become proficient in the subtle art of generously responding to the needs of other people.”

I thought I related to this earlier, but I had a feeling something wasn’t quite right. Now I can see more clearly. I easily see how great everyone else is, and I have a deep-seated feeling of inferiority, so I am envious (The envy is so permeating that I rarely realize that it’s there.). When I see people put themselves down, deny their abilities or self-worth, or struggle to achieve something, it pains me because I know how skilled, valuable, and full of unrealized potential they are. I attempt to help other people to see what I see and actualize their beauty. I think I do this to keep them from feeling the profound pang of inferiority I have, and for unknown reasons I can’t stand it when people don’t accept my help or advice and refuse to recognize their potential. I know I’m a valuable person, but for some reason I can’t shake off my irrational blindness to it. I am unsure whether I’ve properly conveyed this sense to you, but on my side it is somewhat of a paradox that I find myself trapped in. I can be happy, and I know I should be happy, but something is always within me casting shadows where there should be none.

Not only does this give me insight into myself through the Enneagram, but I can also strongly relate this to myself as an INFJ.

From Timeless' description:

“The emotion associated with the image triad is shame, and Type Fours experience shame when they cannot live up to the idealized version of themselves. (This motivation can be similar to Type One, which explains the growth arrow from Four to One.) Fours constantly desire an idealized version of themselves, which contains all the traits that Fours might desire from others. For this reason, Type Four individuals are easy to mistype.”

I easily see and seek to emulate the strengths of others, and this does not exclude the Enneagram. I have grown up being taught that I should help and love other people, work diligently, seek peace, and have complete faith in the future. This is truly the ideal me, but I don't know if it originated within me. Hmm...


From the Enneagram Institute's Type 4 Description, describing Levels of Type 4:

Level 2: Self-aware, introspective, on the "search for self," aware of feelings and inner impulses. Sensitive and intuitive both to self and others: gentle, tactful, compassionate.

Level 3: Highly personal, individualistic, "true to self." Self-revealing, emotionally honest, humane. Ironic view of self and life: can be serious and funny, vulnerable and emotionally strong.


While I recognize flaws in myself, I strongly relate to a mix of levels 2 & 3. I have a sense of seeing past the flaws into a future of hope, but I can't quite shake them. I have read about the growth of Type 4s, and I believe I'm fairly healthy but certainly not where I want to be.

Here are descriptions I relate to:


Type Four childhood pattern by Riso and Hudson
Fours feel that they are not like their parents. Many Fours report fantasizing that they were mistakenly switched at the hospital, or that they are orphans or some kind of changeling. They often express this as feeling that they have not been "seen" by their parents, that they did not connect sufficiently with their parents or their parents with them. In psychological terms, Fours feel that they have not had adequate mirroring, or at least the mirroring of actual qualities and talents that they can make part of their developing identity. (In family systems theory, Fours tend to identify the Lost Child role.)

The result is that Fours believe that something must be profoundly wrong with them, launching them on a lifelong "search for self". They feel "If I am not like my parents and I cannot see myself in them, then who am I?" This also predisposes Fours to focus on what they lack - on what is missing in themselves, their lives, and their relationships. They feel abandoned and misunderstood by their parents and, later, by other significant people.

As a result of this pattern, Fours respond powerfully to people who trigger their desire for mirroring, for being seen and appreciated for who they are. On the most profound level, Fours are always looking for the mother and father they feel they did not have. They may idealize these others as "saviors" who will rescue them from their plight.

Because they have doubts about their identity, they tend to play "hide and seek" with others - hiding from people, but hoping that their absence will be noticed. Fours attempt to remain mysterious and intriguing enough to attract someone who will notice them and redeem them with their love. But self-concealment and self-revelation alternate and can be expressed with such extremes of intensity and need that Fours inadvertently drive the longed-for rescuer away. Until they can recognize this pattern and see the unrealistic expectations they put on their intimates, Fours run the risk of alienating others with their emotional demands.



With new-found clarity I can see how I do, and always have, wanted to be 'rescued'. I had just never identified this feeling of drama with my actions because the feeling was so intrinsic and common 'drama' doesn't really describe it. More appallingly (in my eyes) I see how I really did have a lack of connection with my parents. We love each other, but there is some link that's missing, and it deeply saddens me. Interestingly enough, they are ISTJ and ISFJ while I am INFJ. Maybe there is some correlation there.



Self-Preservation: Tenacious. Different from other Fours (who are very oral in their drive to get something good from the outside). More self-sacrificing, more self-contained. A denial of envy, trouble finding envy in themselves, partly because of the descriptions in vogue when the Enneagram first became known. So afraid of dependency, of being hurt, they become counterdependent, autonomous. Self-demanding ("No matter what it may cost..."). Instead of demanding from the outside world, they demand from themselves. Self-devouring; they can turn on themselves with cruelty—"I'll make myself do it!" Van Gogh is an example. His painting became a kind of religion and he chose a life of great poverty "for his art." He sold one painting in his lifetime, yet recently the Sunflower sold for $54 million. (Gaugin was an Eight.) This subtype doesn't play the victim; volunteers as martyr without exhibiting it, more of anobleness.

From here.

I relate to this instinctual variant more than any other instinctual description on the page.



The child's strategy is largely unsuccessful, leading to a pervasive feeling of disconnection. The child feels alienated and does not identify with either parent. Without a role model the child is forced to turn inwards and construct an identity based on feelings and imaginings. As feelings change, the child's identity becomes unstable, and the child begins the deeper search for a "true inner self."

Once this pattern begins, the child becomes unable to accept love that does not appeal to his/her "true inner self." The personality hardens and ordinary expressions of love are deflected as being "impersonal" or too generic for the child to take to heart. Thus finding oneself becomes of paramount importance, because (at least to the neurotic child) until the "Self" is found, the child cannot truly experience love. I'd say this is roughly the 4w5 personality.


From here.

I see this as part of a fairly accurate depiction of my life. Especially being "unable to accept love that does not appeal to his/her 'true inner self.' The personality hardens and ordinary expressions of love are deflected as being "impersonal" or too generic for the child to take to heart." I strongly felt this way about hugs and physical affection, and still do to a great but changing extent.


Thank you for reading this far! Everyone's advice has been most helpful, and please comment further if you'd like to. I am now fairly certain of being Type 4, probably with a 5 wing. If you have a different opinion and think you can relate what you see to another type better than 4, feel free to present it.

Determining whether I am a certain Enneatype or not does not change who I am- but I strongly believe I can be categorized under Type 4, and nothing will take back the insight this has given me.
 
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