Any other 8 Idealists?
^^^
I wonder if any have struck a balance between, the 8 assertive energy and the Idealist empathic tendencies. After months of research and introspection, I figured that I was truly an eight because my true goal in life is gaining strength and abilities to further help my people. Also, I tackle my challenges the way a warrior would dispose of an enemy, with discipline and controlled violence. The values of the Eight are the sustenance nessasary to keep my introverted feeling healthy. I never gave it serious consideration since I identify well in the XNFP dimension. Go figure that it would be in the last place possible.
So, am I alone in this?
I wonder if any have struck a balance between, the 8 assertive energy and the Idealist empathic tendencies. After months of research and introspection, I figured that I was truly an eight because my true goal in life is gaining strength and abilities to further help my people. Also, I tackle my challenges the way a warrior would dispose of an enemy, with discipline and controlled violence. The values of the Eight are the sustenance nessasary to keep my introverted feeling healthy. I never gave it serious consideration since I identify well in the XNFP dimension. Go figure that it would be in the last place possible.
So, am I alone in this?
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Violence is evil.
Who the hell are "your people"?
Who the hell are "your people"?
Oh hello Mr. Treebob.
No I dont believe so. I have done martial arts from a young age and I find that violence can be channeled into an instrument for good. The drive for violence can be transformed into a drive for determination and assertiveness.
Maybe my definition of evil deviates from yours, but that is to be expected.
My people are the people who I admire and love. I dont know what you were assumming but I think you took 7 leaps in the wrong direction
No I dont believe so. I have done martial arts from a young age and I find that violence can be channeled into an instrument for good. The drive for violence can be transformed into a drive for determination and assertiveness.
Maybe my definition of evil deviates from yours, but that is to be expected.
My people are the people who I admire and love. I dont know what you were assumming but I think you took 7 leaps in the wrong direction
I went overboard on purpose.
Violence in defence is a necessity I understand that. I was mocking the stereotypical statement above. So many "eights" seems to think violence, muscle and fighting is a big part of being an eight and I think this is erroneous myself. In fact many times I see violence as a major fear on the part of the aggressor. Why does an eight need to be tough and have large muscles? I would suppose being an eight means you are a presence in the room but you wouldn't be feared due to your physical appearance more than your general disposition and nature. Hell if you are a healthy eight you wouldn't be feared but rather respected as a leader.
Just my thoughts.
Violence in defence is a necessity I understand that. I was mocking the stereotypical statement above. So many "eights" seems to think violence, muscle and fighting is a big part of being an eight and I think this is erroneous myself. In fact many times I see violence as a major fear on the part of the aggressor. Why does an eight need to be tough and have large muscles? I would suppose being an eight means you are a presence in the room but you wouldn't be feared due to your physical appearance more than your general disposition and nature. Hell if you are a healthy eight you wouldn't be feared but rather respected as a leader.
Just my thoughts.
I agree with the connection you make between fear and the agressor.
Strength comes in may forms, though; muscle might be the farthest thing from my mind. Conviction evokes more admiration from me.
Thanks you for the opinion.
Strength comes in may forms, though; muscle might be the farthest thing from my mind. Conviction evokes more admiration from me.
Thanks you for the opinion.
I don't think it's a balance so much as the two fuse into something different from either the typical NF or 8 personalities. Both NF and 8 are missing typical elements and both have certain elements strengthened when combined. This is likely because of how both types are typically associated with certain Enneagram and MBTI types which flavor their descriptions.
INFJs are usually 9s or 4s
INFPs are usually 4s
ENFPs are usually 7s or 2s
ENFJs are usually 2s
8s are usually ExTJs or ExTPs... so descriptions will usually be a little flavored by this.
Combine atypical combinations of MBTI and Enneagram and they're going to manifest in atypical ways. MBTI type creates perspective. Ennaegram creates motivations. The motivations for Enneagram type will always be tainted by the perspective of the MBTI type and vice versa.
However, I will agree that NFs and type 8s do tend to have a lot of inner conflict between 8 motivations and NF perspectives.
INFJs are usually 9s or 4s
INFPs are usually 4s
ENFPs are usually 7s or 2s
ENFJs are usually 2s
8s are usually ExTJs or ExTPs... so descriptions will usually be a little flavored by this.
Combine atypical combinations of MBTI and Enneagram and they're going to manifest in atypical ways. MBTI type creates perspective. Ennaegram creates motivations. The motivations for Enneagram type will always be tainted by the perspective of the MBTI type and vice versa.
However, I will agree that NFs and type 8s do tend to have a lot of inner conflict between 8 motivations and NF perspectives.
Thank you, that was a really perceptive response!
I've reached the same conclusion about myself as well. So, yes, that would mean I'm an 'Idealist' and an 'E8' as well (not neglecting the fact that, yes, I'm a complex human being as well).
This description of the 'Catalyst' temperament...:
"Want to be authentic, benevolent, and empathic. Search for identity, meaning, and significance. Are relationship oriented, particularly valuing meaningful relationships. Tend to be idealistic and visionary, wanting to make the world a better place. Look to the future. Trust their intuition, imagination, and impressions. Focus on developing potential, fostering and facilitating growth through coaching, teaching, counseling, and communicating. Generally are enthusiastic. Think in terms of integration and similarities and look for universals. Often are gifted in the use of metaphors to bridge different perspectives. Usually are diplomatic. Frequently are drawn to work that inspires and develops people and relationships. (Catalyst Temperament).
...isn't any more descriptive than this because these motivations are expressed differently from person to person.
Humaning said:
This is all speculative and theoretical that disregards a 'Catalyst' (that is someone with an NF temperament) upbringing and its effect on the person's motivation and actual psychology.
This description of the 'Catalyst' temperament...:
"Want to be authentic, benevolent, and empathic. Search for identity, meaning, and significance. Are relationship oriented, particularly valuing meaningful relationships. Tend to be idealistic and visionary, wanting to make the world a better place. Look to the future. Trust their intuition, imagination, and impressions. Focus on developing potential, fostering and facilitating growth through coaching, teaching, counseling, and communicating. Generally are enthusiastic. Think in terms of integration and similarities and look for universals. Often are gifted in the use of metaphors to bridge different perspectives. Usually are diplomatic. Frequently are drawn to work that inspires and develops people and relationships. (Catalyst Temperament).
...isn't any more descriptive than this because these motivations are expressed differently from person to person.
I'm glad someone noticed this 'erroneous' belief, as I've noticed this myself. You don't have to be this muscular aggressor to be an E8. Again, Enneatype descriptions are vague as well because those motivations are expressed differently from person to person.TreeBob said:
I am a Type 8 (8w9)and an INFJ. I am not sure if I see a conflict between my assertiveness and idealist empathic tendencies. I just channelize my strength and passion towards empathic endeavours. Many times empowering others and acting in defense of others unable to protect themselves (both empathic objectives) requires a great deal of assertiveness. As Treebob has said earlier, a healthy 8 will be more respected than feared and here it would mean being respected for their assertiveness among other qualities. Personally, I would disagree with Nobleheart. The part about inner conflict doesn't hold true in my case:happy:
p.s. I also see myself as a warrior and make sure to focus my strength, power and energy in ways that empower and uplift others, and I use the same traits to defend myself and others against harm. This can require toughness and discipline, which as a martial artist you value as well.
p.s. I also see myself as a warrior and make sure to focus my strength, power and energy in ways that empower and uplift others, and I use the same traits to defend myself and others against harm. This can require toughness and discipline, which as a martial artist you value as well.
/raise hand
Why can't we be? I consider myself to be a very empathetic and idealistic individual, with my Type 8 tendencies only serving to fuel my passion for whatever I am trying to achieve or defend. We 8's are often characterized by our assertively protective nature. Aggressively protecting whatever ideals/values/people we have in our "protective bubble," or even becoming a little domineering for the "better good"...is that necessarily evil? As I've said in another thread, I don't consider assertiveness, manipulation, and want for control to necessarily be a negative set of traits. Our actions and stances are often misunderstood, but honestly, I believe this just stems from our unconventional methodology.
Why can't we be? I consider myself to be a very empathetic and idealistic individual, with my Type 8 tendencies only serving to fuel my passion for whatever I am trying to achieve or defend. We 8's are often characterized by our assertively protective nature. Aggressively protecting whatever ideals/values/people we have in our "protective bubble," or even becoming a little domineering for the "better good"...is that necessarily evil? As I've said in another thread, I don't consider assertiveness, manipulation, and want for control to necessarily be a negative set of traits. Our actions and stances are often misunderstood, but honestly, I believe this just stems from our unconventional methodology.
Stole the words right out of my mouth. I have never had my Type 8 nature and "NF-ness" collide, in fact I will even say they enhance each other. This is especially true when it comes to my Fi. Although I would hate to derive into stereotypes, perhaps this lack of conflict comes from my lack of there stereotypically more "fluffy" Fe (my 2nd or 3rd weakest function.)
I suspect Chrissie Hynde's an ENFP type 8, but speculation is all it is because I don't like typing celebrities definitely.
I can't remember any specifics off-hand, although it's based on things like the way she fights for animal rights and other causes, but it's a mannerism/vibe thing as much as anything.
I can't remember any specifics off-hand, although it's based on things like the way she fights for animal rights and other causes, but it's a mannerism/vibe thing as much as anything.
An example of how my NF-ness and my 8-ness collide...
My idealistic motivations inspire me to say or do something with the 'normal' amount of passion, drive, and focus that my type 8-ness has. Unfortunately, this causes people that I care about to be hurt by what they call my being unyielding, contentious, or domineering. When this becomes enough of a pattern, it becomes clear that I have to be overly conscious of the fact that most people can't handle me. My idealism is now in conflict with my nature. It's not an inherent conflict. It's a learned response. If you are an NF and an 8, you're inevitably going to find yourself in the position of realizing just how much of an affect you have on others, and having an inner conflict about it.
Another example...
Someone pushes my NF idealistic buttons and sets off my adversarial 8-ness. Suddenly, this person is getting the full force of my personality, and many people are extremely rattled by this experience. My 8-ness assumes people can handle this, and if they didn't want to clash with me then they wouldn't have started an argument or fight. But, they can't, and I'm left with people shaking, getting really upset, and in more cases than I'd have ever assumed possible, crying and having an emotional breakdown. Now my NF-ness feels really bad about having caused this without intending to, even though my 8-ness knows I didn't do anything wrong and I'm standing there trying to figure out how what I said or did could have caused this reaction in someone, rapidly losing respect for them but simultaneously not wanting them to be hurting... and often apologizing in order to make them hurt less, even though to the core of my being I didn't feel like I did anything wrong by standing my ground and stating what I think or feel.
My inner conflict eventually becomes one of my NF side always trying to safeguard from these sorts of 'unexpected' incidents that my 8 side can't consider.
On the subject of famous NFs who are 8s...
Both Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Gandhi are reported to be INFJs and 8w9s.
My idealistic motivations inspire me to say or do something with the 'normal' amount of passion, drive, and focus that my type 8-ness has. Unfortunately, this causes people that I care about to be hurt by what they call my being unyielding, contentious, or domineering. When this becomes enough of a pattern, it becomes clear that I have to be overly conscious of the fact that most people can't handle me. My idealism is now in conflict with my nature. It's not an inherent conflict. It's a learned response. If you are an NF and an 8, you're inevitably going to find yourself in the position of realizing just how much of an affect you have on others, and having an inner conflict about it.
Another example...
Someone pushes my NF idealistic buttons and sets off my adversarial 8-ness. Suddenly, this person is getting the full force of my personality, and many people are extremely rattled by this experience. My 8-ness assumes people can handle this, and if they didn't want to clash with me then they wouldn't have started an argument or fight. But, they can't, and I'm left with people shaking, getting really upset, and in more cases than I'd have ever assumed possible, crying and having an emotional breakdown. Now my NF-ness feels really bad about having caused this without intending to, even though my 8-ness knows I didn't do anything wrong and I'm standing there trying to figure out how what I said or did could have caused this reaction in someone, rapidly losing respect for them but simultaneously not wanting them to be hurting... and often apologizing in order to make them hurt less, even though to the core of my being I didn't feel like I did anything wrong by standing my ground and stating what I think or feel.
My inner conflict eventually becomes one of my NF side always trying to safeguard from these sorts of 'unexpected' incidents that my 8 side can't consider.
On the subject of famous NFs who are 8s...
Both Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Gandhi are reported to be INFJs and 8w9s.
Words of wisdom right there.
About Type 2s: oh Lord. Type 2s. The type 2 I referred to earlier can get very domineering at the wrongest times, when it's completely unnecessary. Have you noticed that with the 2s in your life? This pushes my buttons like nothing else. This person starts acting like a damn flower, and goes on and on about their hurt feelings. Thanks to my patience, I allow them to spend week after week discussing the time where my coldness hurt them (where they complain about me and get very critical). It's never ending, and I am so done with this self-victimization. The nagging, manipulative and accusatory behaviour is extremely hurtful to me. If I didn't care for this person, I would never have let them get away with this. But, they are clearly abusing the privilege. This person has been very understanding and kind, in the past, but right now they have turned me into some kind of monster that's out to get them just because I dared to sound cold to them. It's time to show the assertiveness and end this one
for good, and I have no regrets.
Oh, I also want to add two poems that resonate with me and may touch you as well. These are by my one of my favourite poets-Rainer Maria Rilke.
The first one moves me deeply because of the difficult and abusive experiences of my childhood, something you can relate to:
As Once the Winged Energy of Delight
As once the winged energy of delight
carried you over childhood's dark abysses,
now beyond your own life build the great
arch of unimagined bridges.
Wonders happen if we can succeed
in passing through the harshest danger;
but only in a bright and purely granted
achievement can we realize the wonder.
To work with Things in the indescribable
relationship is not too hard for us;
the pattern grows more intricate and subtle,
and being swept along is not enough.
Take your practiced powers and stretch them out
until they span the chasm between two
contradictions...For the god
wants to know himself in you
The second poem is a tribute to our battles and the compassionate warrior in you and I (and us Type 8s) and others who have shown courage, kindness and strength through periods of difficulty and pain:
What Survives
Who says that all must vanish?
Who knows, perhaps the flight
of the bird you wound remains,
and perhaps flowers survive
caresses in us, in their ground.
It isn't the gesture that lasts,
but it dresses you again in gold
armor -from breast to knees-
and the battle was so pure
an Angel wears it after you.
for good, and I have no regrets.Oh, I also want to add two poems that resonate with me and may touch you as well. These are by my one of my favourite poets-Rainer Maria Rilke.
The first one moves me deeply because of the difficult and abusive experiences of my childhood, something you can relate to
:As Once the Winged Energy of Delight
As once the winged energy of delight
carried you over childhood's dark abysses,
now beyond your own life build the great
arch of unimagined bridges.
Wonders happen if we can succeed
in passing through the harshest danger;
but only in a bright and purely granted
achievement can we realize the wonder.
To work with Things in the indescribable
relationship is not too hard for us;
the pattern grows more intricate and subtle,
and being swept along is not enough.
Take your practiced powers and stretch them out
until they span the chasm between two
contradictions...For the god
wants to know himself in you
The second poem is a tribute to our battles and the compassionate warrior in you and I (and us Type 8s) and others who have shown courage, kindness and strength through periods of difficulty and pain:
What Survives
Who says that all must vanish?
Who knows, perhaps the flight
of the bird you wound remains,
and perhaps flowers survive
caresses in us, in their ground.
It isn't the gesture that lasts,
but it dresses you again in gold
armor -from breast to knees-
and the battle was so pure
an Angel wears it after you.
As per this 2 problem, early on, I would be pointing out the objective behavior patterns involved in the incident, the flaws in the pattern and how to correct the pattern.
Ya gotta suck em into the T paradigm and open their eyes to the objective, away from their subjective bullshit drama world
If that doesn't work, tell em to shut the fuck up, whilst eye fuckin them real mean
Chicks love that shit, rescuing them from themselves
A loving pimp hand
I am a romantic, at heart
Ya gotta suck em into the T paradigm and open their eyes to the objective, away from their subjective bullshit drama world
If that doesn't work, tell em to shut the fuck up, whilst eye fuckin them real mean
Chicks love that shit, rescuing them from themselves
A loving pimp hand
I am a romantic, at heart
About Type 2s: oh Lord. Type 2s. The type 2 I referred to earlier can get very domineering at the wrongest times, when it's completely unnecessary. Have you noticed that with the 2s in your life? This pushes my buttons like nothing else. This person starts acting like a damn flower, and goes on and on about their hurt feelings. Thanks to my patience, I allow them to spend week after week discussing the time where my coldness hurt them (where they complain about me and get very critical). It's never ending, and I am so done with this self-victimization. The nagging, manipulative and accusatory behavior is extremely hurtful to me. If I didn't care for this person, I would never have let them get away with this. But, they are clearly abusing the privilege. This person has been very understanding and kind, in the past, but right now they have turned me into some kind of monster that's out to get them just because I dared to sound cold to them. It's time to show the assertiveness and end this one
Oh, I also want to add two poems that resonate with me and may touch you as well. These are by my one of my favorite poets-Rainer Maria Rilke.
The first one moves me deeply because of the difficult and abusive experiences of my childhood, something you can relate to
As Once the Winged Energy of Delight
As once the winged energy of delight
carried you over childhood's dark abysses,
now beyond your own life build the great
arch of unimagined bridges.
Wonders happen if we can succeed
in passing through the harshest danger;
but only in a bright and purely granted
achievement can we realize the wonder.
To work with Things in the indescribable
relationship is not too hard for us;
the pattern grows more intricate and subtle,
and being swept along is not enough.
Take your practiced powers and stretch them out
until they span the chasm between two
contradictions...For the god
wants to know himself in you
The second poem is a tribute to our battles and the compassionate warrior in you and I (and us Type 8s) and others who have shown courage, kindness and strength through periods of difficulty and pain:
What Survives
Who says that all must vanish?
Who knows, perhaps the flight
of the bird you wound remains,
and perhaps flowers survive
caresses in us, in their ground.
It isn't the gesture that lasts,
but it dresses you again in gold
armor -from breast to knees-
and the battle was so pure
an Angel wears it after you.
Unfortunately, this person wasn't quite emotionally stable. I had pointed out their ridiculousness in a very objective and pointed fashion in the past. The response was more whining, more accusations of combativeness, aggression and extremely dominant behaviour, a lack of concern for their 'feelings' and so on. The truth is that I was nowhere as combative, aggressive etc. as I can be, with this person because I saw their vulnerability and did not want to exploit it, out of sheer humaneness. I made every effort to be calm and tolerant, and I am using the word 'effort' because it took a lot of effort. I spent week after week discussing things, trying to sort it all out, though I was running out of patience. Some people like to victimize themselves, and you could put yourself at great discomfort to accommodate them, but they will still remain dissatisfied. It's nearly impossible to reason with such people. We ended up having a huge fall-out when I felt that, their instability notwithstanding, I had to cut them out of my life. There is only so much generosity I will show before I decide you are not worth it. They still try to get in touch with me, but I have made it clear that I am not interested in maintaining relations with them, at all.
well shit...almost just took the words out of my mouth
Weird your an INFJ 8w9 I thought that I might be the only INFJ that was an 8w9 quite a bummer actually
Weird your an INFJ 8w9 I thought that I might be the only INFJ that was an 8w9 quite a bummer actually
Nope. I'm one too.
It seems as if 8w9 is much more common with INFJs than 8w7... as in, I've never heard of an INFJ 8 being a 7 wing, and not a clear 9 wing.
It seems as if 8w9 is much more common with INFJs than 8w7... as in, I've never heard of an INFJ 8 being a 7 wing, and not a clear 9 wing.
Phew. I've been studying the Enneagram a bit more as I am fairly new to it and I've been contemplating Type 8w9 or Type 5w6 as my type , and everywhere I read that Type 8s are really aggressive and rather enjoy conflict. With me, it might be a little different. If I'm really pissed at a relative who happens to be significantly older than me, I usually manage to suppress my anger out of respect for them, which might make me look a bit more like a Type 1. However, I have been known to rage at some of my friends and (on lack of better judgment) my parents from time to time and while I wouldn't exactly say I'm glad I did, I don't really regret it because they probably deserved it at the time. Except my anger usually isn't direct. It's more passive-aggressive.
Another thing that I have read is that Type 8s and Type 5s can mistype for each other and it is usually between really assertive 5s and really intellectual 8s.
Another thing that I have read is that Type 8s and Type 5s can mistype for each other and it is usually between really assertive 5s and really intellectual 8s.
I'm not sure an eight would ever be passive aggressive. I have a hard time hiding my anger (ok it isn't possible to hide it).
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