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Apparent Hypocrisy

8K views 52 replies 17 participants last post by  Spooky 
#1 ·
I have been a member of Personality Cafe since October. Those of you who have been here for a while may have noticed a change in my attitude. This was gradual and did not happen over night. I recollect a thread I started a while back called "The Beauty Authority" where I denounced the superficiality of our society and the objectification of women. I meant every word of it; but that was me in my idealistic state of mind, looking for a loving, lasting relationship with a decent woman. Over the past few months, my mentality has changed considerably. To understand this, you would have to understand the conservative, Christian values that shaped my ideals, which to INFPs, is the foundation of our character and pursuits in life. Needless to say, I held Christian women, particularly in my religious affiliation, to a higher standard. I was looking for a woman who shared my values. Unfortunately, I have come to the realization that my ideals were not compatible with reality; and so-called "Christian" women, in general, are no different than women who never had any religious upbringing in the first place. Before I joined the Marines, there were four single girls at my church (it's a small church). When I came back home, three of them were pregnant out of wedlock (all under the age of twenty) and the fourth had an affair with a married man. One of them, I was in love with. If it seems like I've become a bit of a misogynist or jerk since I joined this forum, there's a reason for it.

Women are whores! Fuck 'em!
 
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#2 ·
If you really belive women are whores, fuck 'em, you will NEVER have a lasting relationship. I will not pretend I'm not offended. What you're saying is ridiculous. You seem to be saying that women within the church group are of a higher morality than the rest of humanity and thus are a good example to base your opinion on. Religion does not have monopoly on morals, and can seem more about public shame and gossping, which is why after an uprbinging within catholic school, I have decided organised religion is not for me. The most religious were often the most atagonistic and cliquey (selective discrimination) of the entire student body. I've never wanted anything to do with people that preached morals and displayed none. much like you are doing right now. The biggest issue is going to a church expecting to find true love. That is a VERY small network of people to find love within, they are not any better than any body else in general. Don't make sweeping statements. I know you're hurt, but that's because you're expectig to find your one true love out of, by what you say, about 4 people. I've been with one guy and one guy alone for 8 years, he is my first and last. Look outside your circle for better examples. Think before you speak.
 
#14 ·
The biggest issue is going to a church expecting to find true love. That is a VERY small network of people to find love within, they are not any better than any body else in general.
Personally, I find it an indication of a very weak character to only look for partners within such a limited, arbitrary group of people.

Women are whores! Fuck 'em!
I was in a bad mood last night when I said it.
This isn't the first time you've said similar things, in "a bad mood". I really think you do believe these things, at least a little.

You're lucky you haven't been torn limb from limb by the women on this board. I tell you honestly, you are making poor decisions right now.

My opinion is that you are upset because you had created a fantasy around a person. You had no undertanding with her, so I must conclude your wounded pride is the fault of your imagination, not her conduct.
Yes and Yes. I wonder Beloved, do you do this sort of thing in real life? That is, when one woman upsets you're expectations, do you lash out with horrible comments? You may have burned bridges without realizing it.
 
#3 ·
I haven't changed my perspective based on these four women. That was just an example. I'm acquainted with a lot of women, religious and non-religious. I've discovered some commonalities among them. I realize that my generalizations don't apply to ALL women, but a large number of women. I didn't mean to offend you.
 
#4 ·
Wow.

Firstly, I feel for you. You have been hurt and your idealism shattered. That is a terrible place to be.

I would like to think you have posted here not to only to justify your behaviour, but also to provoke people into giving your faith in women back.

Before I give you my opinion, I'd like to give you my back story - where I'm coming from. I was brought up with 'loosely' Christian values. My parents had both come from quite rough neighbourhoods, but my mom had bucked the trend. A lot of the girls she grew up with were teenage moms, even before leaving school. She got a good office job, got married, moved to a nicer area. My mom was quite young. I guess you could say my dad was quite worldly, compared to her. My dad had already been married and had a son. Although my grandparents weren't very religious, as a young couple, my parents became church-goers.

Eventually, my mom and dad's marriage broke down. My mom was then in a position where she had to reconcile her Christian beliefs with her predicament. We changed the church we went to and started going to a more liberal one, where she was accepted as a divorcee.

So, as a result, my mom always told me this: live with someone before you marry them and don't settle down too young. She has given me this advice in good faith - she doesn't want me to be in the same position she was in - faced with bringing up children in a troubled home, or a broken home.

So...you have an idea where I am coming from.

My first point is this, lots of men have sex out of marriage, too. However, they're not very often left holding a baby when they do.

I don't know if you have ever had sex. I know there are lots of women out there who don't have sex before marriage (I am led to believe there are fewer men who preserve their virginity for their wedding night).

I don't think it is fair to label these young women as whores. I don't think for one minute (and I'm pretty sure that you know this) they did what they did because they just wanted to get laid. They may have done it because they wanted security (they felt insecure) or because they wanted to feel loved (they felt unloved). They may have done it because they have been falsely conditioned to believe, that, as a woman you have to have sex with a man or have his baby to get him. You've probably got a better idea than me about what might have caused them to put themselves in the positions they did.

Personally, I feel really sorry for those girls, getting pregnant so young and without the support of their community. They have to raise their children while other people (you) look at them and thinking they are just whores. Raising children is no easy task - ask any parent. I can only imagine what they have gone through. How will I support myself and my child? How will I cope if I don't have the support of my child's father? My family? My community?

Labelling women as whores is part of the problem not the solution.

Okay, I am going to cut to the chase: I think one of these girls has broken your heart. You feel betrayed: you would have treated her right and she has gone and done this. You feel that she has gone against you as a person, but also against your beliefs and the beliefs of your church.

I think you are probably pretty angry. You sound it.

I think you are probably also a bit scared. Here is this girl that you held in such high regard - if she can do this, what are other women capable of? How will you ever find someone who you can love, respect and value? What does this mean for your future?

Personally, I am cohabiting. I have had sex outside marriage. Touch wood, I've managed not to get myself pregnant. By no means am I a whore.

BUT, I have experienced times in my life where I have measured my own worth based on how men see me. Fortunately I am privileged enough not to be reliant on men who have such low opinions of women. I have found one that values my intellect, my sense of humour, my values and who still thinks I am attractive even when I am ill, wearing no make up, with my hair a mess and in scruffy old clothes.

Labelling women as whores means that they are sex objects. Judging these young women in the way you have is to forget the fact that they are also sisters, friends, daughters, students, co-workers ( and mothers?).

I have found a really nice guy who values me for who I am. Please don't view women as whores. I am afraid that you will just use them as sex objects if you do this. Be that nice guy, find a girl who you respect, and respect her. She will be a better person for having you in her life.
 
#6 ·
Well said. I really feel for you Beloved.
Not having been brought up in a religous home at all, I still had/have my values. I made my mistakes (not pregnancy thank God) and was lucky enough to find my soulmate. I never slept around, though I think my actions, as are the actions of many women, were heavily influenced by our less than pure society. Culture is a difficult thing to fight against, esp when you don't even know you are fighting a losing battle.

My impression of you on this forum is that you are a compassionate, fair and strong person. Putting people on pedestals is a tricky thing, because eventually you both fall off. I think your anger is directed in many places, but I also think this. You are a good and intelligent man. You will find it in yourself to forgive, women and yourself, and find some middle ground here. God forgives, and in living up to Him, so must we.

*Hugs*
 
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#5 · (Edited)
You were slighted when you had no exclusive relationship with these women how? They're whores because they had sex outside of marriage? This isn't the stone age, and we don't sacrifice animals to appease God anymore. Try not to be so unchristian as you belive these women to be. You're lucky you haven't been torn limb from limb by the women on this board. I tell you honestly, you are making poor decisions right now.
My opinion is that you are upset because you had created a fantasy around a person. You had no undertanding with her, so I must conclude your wounded pride is the fault of your imagination, not her conduct.
 
#7 · (Edited)
You're angrier with yourself than any of these women. You staked no claim, they've betrayed nothing between you. Calling women 'whores' invites more unpleasant experiences with women, and you cannot blame them for it.
You don't know the entire story, so to say that none of them have betrayed me in any way isn't accurate.

You're lucky you haven't been lynched.
Lynched? Really? For calling women whores. That's a bit of an over-reation wouldn't you say?

Do some self examination Mr. Christian Morality. When pressed, you're willing to be more disgusting than those you've cast labels against.
First of all, you don't know what else they've done so you can't really say that I'm more disgusting than they are. I realize my comment upset you. I was in a bad mood last night when I said it. You should relate to that because I've heard you say things on here that you regretted later. Secondly, I'm not claiming that my words or actions reflect my religious beliefs. I realize that I have not been an ideal Christian lately and that has certainly caused animosity against myself.
 
#9 ·
This is a sensitive issue for me and probably is for a lot of women who've felt the weight of their own gender against who they wish to be. We are not all so fortunate as to not be affected by gender discrimination. I am concerned statements like yours don't help our situation. It is sometimes hard to see from another persons perspective, if gender equality was not a genuine issue I would put it on the same level as 'men are jerks, or women are chatter boxes' and not be upset. However, men to my knowledge have never been oppressed for being men. To hear women reduced to simply virginal sex partners or whores makes me feel ill.
 
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#10 ·
I don't like the fact that TheHappyMinority has been jumped on as the 'bad guy' in this thread. She is not the one who posted:

'Women are whores! Fuck 'em!'

Women are not whores. Labelling all women as whores is sex discrimination.

Don't get me wrong, I am not judging you Beloved. I don't think you actually are sexist, just upset. And, I do stand by everything I put in my earlier post.

But TheHappyMinority is right that women would have been entitled to take offence and get angry at what you posted. You did just call us all whores.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Women are not whores. Labelling all women as whores is sex discrimination.

Don't get me wrong, I am not judging you Beloved. I don't think you actually are sexist, just upset. And, I do stand by everything I put in my earlier post.

But TheHappyMinority is right that women would have been entitled to take offence and get angry at what you posted. You did just call us all whores.
I admit that I was wrong for calling women whores. I've also learned that not everything in life is black and white. While there is a part of me that loves and respects women as individuals and wants a faithful relationship with one woman for the rest of my life, there's another part of me that is bitter and hurt from several past experiences, not just the one I listed in the OP, and that part of me wants to use women purely for sexual pleasure and avoid the pain of ever getting hurt again. I don't hold any woman to a standard which I, myself, am unable to meet. This conflict of values has also taken a toll on my spiritual life. I haven't attended church as a faithful Christian for a while. That's because I took my religion seriously, unlike the aforementioned women, and I can't go to church with an unclean conscience and pretend that I'm holy, when clearly, I'm not.

I labeled many women as whores, but obviously men who regard sexuality in the same manner would be considered 'man whores', not pimps; including men who have the same mindset that I had when writing this thread. If I said that 'men are whores' I don't think I would have gotten the same response. If it was a woman who said it, I certainly would not have been offended because I think most men ARE man-whores. It says more about the lifestyle, not the gender of the individual.

As far as the spiritual struggle that I've been facing, I think this passage says it best:

(Romans 7:14-25)

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul was not condoning sin in this passage, but he acknowledged the constant struggle between his flesh and spirit.
 
#13 ·
"Let he among us, without sin, be the first to condemn."

"VIVA LA VIE BOHEME!"
 
#12 ·
You're both right, and I am surprised that I, myself didn't take offense. I just don't see the purpose addressing hurt feeling/venting posts by jumping on someone. I don't necessarily disagree with the points made, just the way it was said. It seems counter productive.

And I was not trying to make HM out to be the bad guy, ahem, girl, I just don't understand why, when there are so many other approaches than name calling and anger, that that would be the chosen response. The parting comment was offensive and angered, sure, but there was a lot more going on there than just that statement.
 
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#15 · (Edited)
I do not know you or you me, however I can say this. Your first mistake was an assumption. You assumed that as christians these women adhered to a higher morality. Common mistake. Any religion, particularly christianity, is not the source of morality. We all have that compass within us.

It can be, through community and advice, a strong moral teacher. But just like any student/teacher relationship it does not mean the student is listening.

As to women waiting for you in general, in my experience unless you have your hooks in deep, time heals all wounds, even cupids arrow. On that note if you insist with the women are whores approach, then find yourself a whore and you'll know what to expect.

As been said, putting people on pedestals results in you both taking a tumble.
I hope your wounds heal clean, good luck bud.
 
#18 ·
I could say a lot here about faith, about women, about life and so on, but I think it would serve no purpose.

Every person's faith is his own. It should be respected as such.

You have said that you have experienced several things which have made you bitter in the past. I don't know what these particular experiences have been, but if possible, I think it would be best to try and see them as learning experiences. While doing so, try and keep a positive way of looking things!

We have billions of people in this world...when you go through life and get older, you also experience more and start to understand the world a bit better. This is why I think that old people with an open mind are most probably the wisest people around :)

Good luck to you in your search of truth in faith. If I can help you in somehow, please tell. I'm not christian though, but I have thought about religion, faith and it's meaning for people and myself a lot.

Best wishes,
Ungweliante
 
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#19 ·
Hi, I'm not gonna take part in this discussion, but since the word "whore" has been used a lot here in a negative way, I just wanted to remind that there are a lot of real people out there in the world who are actually working as whores, prostitutes. It is very hard work, and can be dangerous too. Please, let's not use their job name as a pejorative.
 
#21 · (Edited)
But the word "whore" is pejorative and I'm not using it in reference to the occupation; although in a sick kind of way, I respect prostitutes for being straightforward and honest with the fact that they are objectifying their bodies for money, whereas many women use the same means to gain materialism within the context of a "relationship."
 
#22 ·
I think Shai is secretly in love with me and this is how he shows it. It's messed up, but he doesn't mind if I give him good or bad attention, just so long as he lets me know he's alive and somewhat important. :crazy:
 
#33 ·
No, you're just following someone around thread to thread and attacking them on their profile visitor page. You're doing so much more :)

Congratulations for both being a lying little slut, and a manipulative little slut.
 
#36 ·
Well, that's a relief :tongue:
 
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#38 ·
I apologised to Shai and everybody for my one time of swearing in a heated situation, repeatedly. I have never pursued or requested or talked about wanting any action against him. Ever. But it happened without my say so, without my opinion being asked. I have never tried to get away with anything and if action is taken against me I wouldn't complain. I even tried to resolve the conflict with Shai at least to the point where we could agree to forget the animosity and behave respectfully toward each other. You're being outright awful to me when I didn't try to evade anything. I didn't request punishment for anyone, nor would I. I've even tried to use humor to lighten the mood as a last resort. It didn't work and I'm sorry. Give me a break, I've been trying damn hard here.
 
#44 ·
Covetting victim status, my foot. I retract my statement about men suffering no disrcmination, you raised a good example. But I do have a right to be offended. His intention at the time was to be insulting because he was hurt, so why get angry that I reacted as I was supposed to? I understand Beloved, you got your heart broke. It sucks to feel like you felt more for another person than they felt for you. I know you were lashing out, we both were. But where you seem to have been forgiven for saying it anger, others have not forgiven me for responding in anger (no name calling) to a statement I was supposed to be offended by. Is one persons misdeeds while angry more justifiable than anothers?

Zulban, peace. I've no beef with you, you say you haven't either but I've no idea why you're campaigning so hard aganist me when I have apologised over and over again. I didn't make the rules, I've no control over how they are enforced. Regrettably I lost my temper but you keep reminding everyone of one temper explosion where I said just one insulting word in a highly heated situation. Shai took that insult and went absolutely crazy with it, he offended someone else in the process, THEN he got and infraction. Because he thought I'd done it, he went to town on me. I am not responsible for his actions and how is dealing with other people because I have said one word to him that was offensive. The sheer volume of how many times this one misdeed has been repeated all over the forum now has people thinking I have caused trouble everywhere I go. It's simply not true and it's a really shitty thing to feel like that's people's opinion of you. Repeatedly dragging me through the wringer when there is nothing more I can do is pointless and unfair. Particularly when all I've done is defend myself from a personal attack with as much good humor about the situation as I could muster. Airing my dirty laundry when there is nothing I can do to resolve it isn't fair. Please talk to the moderators personally if you have a problem, I cannot do anything more about this except apologise like I have been doing ever since I first said it. It's becoming character assasination.
 
#45 ·
I understand Beloved, you got your heart broke. It sucks to feel like you felt more for another person than they felt for you. I know you were lashing out, we both were. But where you seem to have been forgiven for saying it anger, others have not forgiven me for responding in anger (no name calling) to a statement I was supposed to be offended by. Is one persons misdeeds while angry more justifiable than anothers?
Believe it or not, the anger that inspired me to start this thread was not the result of just one woman who broke my heart.
 
#46 ·
Wow, so this has gone on a bit since I last logged in! It's interesting that someone making a sweeping generalisation based on gender has turned into a very personal debate about name-calling.

I totally agree that jumping on Beloved was not going to help matters. It sounded like he needed to vent, and probably also wanted to provoke a "but women aren't all whores" response. Beloved, I glad you seem to be in a better place now.

TheHappyMinority did sound a little angry, I agree, but I am sure she (like Beloved) had her own personal reasons for feeling upset.

You are a cynical lot though, I have to say! You know, I think that most people mean well most of the time. When they screw up (or screw around) they probably didn't mean to cause harm or have their own reasons for doing so. Sometimes it's easy for us to see those reasons, sometimes it's less so. I don't believe in judging other people unless you've walked in their shoes.

It sounds like there are quite a few people ranting on here based on their own experiences...but most men and most women can behave badly to their partners (and just in general!) at times. I don't think it's acceptable, but it's sometimes forgiveable. Personally, I have been known to lose my temper, and I can certainly be a bit melodramatic at times.

I have to say, in my experiences, it's been the men in the relationship who have behaved most badly (my father and step-father to my mum; my ex-partner to me; at least 2 of my girlfriends have been physically abused by their boyfriends...etc, etc). I don't go around thinking all men are violent philanderers who squander money while their wives/partners are left to pay their debts, the household bills and care for the children. I hope not anyway! Certainly, the one I'm with seems to have far too much integrity and inner-calm to follow the patterns of behaviour I almost expect from men. In fact, he has forced me to give up on many of the stereotypes I have come to expect - and accept - from men.

I guess I can't resist the urge to defend us womenfolk. Guys, we're not all bad. It sounds like you've had some awful experiences though.

I can only think of two woman I know who wouldn't date someone who wasn't financially secure, and both of them already support themselves and just don't want a man who would be a financial drain. I do know several women who have cheated while in relationships. Of the four that spring to mind, two of them had probably lost confidence in themselves and needed reassurance that other men still found them attractive to give them the strength to leave the relationship they were currently in; the other two are the kind of women who can't be on their own and need to find someone else to move onto before ending as relationship. Just because they had their reasons it doesn't mean that it wasn't a terrible thing to do to their partner.

The only thing you have control over is your own behaviour - you can choose not to conform to the negative stereotypes of your gender.

Good luck to everyone in finding someone who is loving and who you love in return. If you have already found them, may you lead long and happy lives together!

So I don't end on my trite platitude...I just HAVE to add this...A WOMAN WHO OWNS LESS THAN FOUR PAIRS OF SHOES??? Does such a thing exist?

I have my flat black pair, a high-heeled black pair, a grey pair, a funky purple pair for when I feel daring, some rubber pink wellingtons for snow/mud, running shoes, canvas shoes, plimsolls, black high-heeled sandals, flat sandals, flip-flops, trendy patent ones, respectable court shoes, a suede pair, work shoes...... Well, it just goes on and on! They're just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

And bags...well, don't even get me started on bags. But clearly I still haven't got enough because I've not got one for every outfit and every occasion! Now, what did I say again about not conforming to gender stereotypes?
 
#50 ·
The Shai Gar related conflict

I get the rules of the forum, but I also don't get them. THM couldn't call Shai Gar a fucktard because it goes against the rules, yet with the shit, quite frankly he was coming out with, I think she was justified in calling him that. To me the difference between THM and Shai Gar is, THM seems a very nice person, Shai Gar, well, it's been said before. Like THM said, standing up to bullies makes sense, and Shai Gar was a bully, sure a lot of his outrageous comments were deliberate, just to see the reaction from the other person, but, there's outrageous funny, and outrageous offensive, Shai Gar was a master of the latter, and he didn't mind doing it, he deserved to be banned.
 
#51 ·
I get the rules of the forum, but I also don't get them. THM couldn't call Shai Gar a fucktard because it goes against the rules, yet with the shit, quite frankly he was coming out with, I think she was justified in calling him that. To me the difference between THM and Shai Gar is, THM seems a very nice person, Shai Gar, well, it's been said before. Like THM said, standing up to bullies makes sense, and Shai Gar was a bully, sure a lot of his outrageous comments were deliberate, just to see the reaction from the other person, but, there's outrageous funny, and outrageous offensive, Shai Gar was a master of the latter, and he didn't mind doing it, he deserved to be banned.
He also wanted to be banned, but I agree with you. It seemed like he intentionally created conflict.
 
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