Are all the best leaders in history ENTJs? (or NTJs for that matter)
[ENTJ]
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No, why would they be? Marie Antoinette was a ISFP, then again she did manage to get her head wacked off. So, that's kinda a lose lose.
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No they aren't. Really, what the hell?
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depends on who you consider a great leader to be. some people think hitler was a great leader.
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I have read an analysis that claimed that almost all of history's greatest generals were either ENTJs or ENTPs, but that's about it. It's quite dubious too.
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ENTPs????
*worried*
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History's most powerful leaders.
I mean there are certain leaders that lead their civilization into golden ages and build great empires.
Empire builders to be exact.
I mean I really don't want to explain this obvious shitfuck to you, but i think you know what i mean without asking.
No, actually, I didn't know what you meant, hence the request to explain.
"Best," in this connotation, could have meant several things.
Since you have now better defined it, the obvious answer is "No."
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How is Marie Antoinette a great leader?
I mean I hear this bullshit that ENTJ are going to conquer the world and all other types are inferior to ENTJs.
Can someone justify this.
What about Ps?
Ps can't become great leaders?
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Did you not see the part that said "she also managed to get her head wacked off?
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I think you should ask the source to justify their statements instead of us. I don't see why we have to support their argument.
Besides, it's a dumb statement and gross generalization of ENTJ's.
You should be. Heh, heh heh.
There is a general disconnect between what people are considering as "leader." Leader only means to lead, to be at the front of a line, setting an example. You can be a leader and have absolutely no sway over other people. So here's a breakdown of leadership. If this turns out to be a successful post I'll make a thread out of it.
Leading: Setting an example, front of the pack. Not necessarily the best, just in front. This applies to whomever has the strongest grasp upon a particular function. If the following information makes sense (Ti) and the forum agrees to it, then I am a "leader" in the area of Ti. You can lead with any function, but not have it be your main function.
Persuasion: Ability to influence people to bend to your will, usually by perception (Fe) People follow you because they are "moved" to emotionally. Many riots have Fe leaders. Hitler was a famous Fe leader. That female teacher in your class who's flaming ovaries can set ablaze all the established patriarchal culture, make some students cry, and yells for no apparent reason is an Fe.
Command: The ability to impose your will upon people using indirect threat (Se) People follow you because they will get hurt if they do not. Many front line military commanders are Se, ideally an ESTP who have Ti as a second function and leave the ethics for their nation to decide. Se as a leading function also allows for a more controlled body mechanics (S types are generally better athletes) Alexander the Great may have been an ESTP instead of the commonly mispercieved ENTJ. He fought on the front lines sometimes so far ahead of his own company that his own men he would be surrounded by the enemy
Resource Management: The ability to use logic to allocate resources in an environment (Te) People follow you because they either understand that your logic, or because you pay Se/Fe types to make them use their abilities to do the same. Te is about efficiency and effectiveness. Bringing order to chaos. The world is in a constant state of flux and chaos and therefore a properly developed Te leader can bring the world back from the brink of destruction. A war can be won without firing a single shot. Romans were experts at logistics but bad at tactics, hence their loss to Germanic tribes.
Control: The ability to understand the inner workings of prebuilt systems and interfaces.(Ti) A computer is a system, and understanding how it works allows people to control them. Leading in Ti has many strange effects. Ti knowledge of anatomy (doctors), psychology(obviously psychiatrists, torturers, socionists) computers(Hollywood hackers).
Pro-Action: The ability to predict future events based on past events, as well as the ability to see through distortions in the real world. This one is obvious, prophets are usually "enlightened" having both Ni and Ne at their disposal. Anyone who can predict the future or simply perceive a current problem can in a sense "lead" people and this has usually been the case. In order for many dictators to maintain corrupt control they must suppress understanding (Ti) an propagate lies i.e. propaganda (snuffing out Ni) and either promise people something (Ne) or make sure they are aware that they have no hope (negative Ne)
Duty: Difficult to add an adjective to this one. Fi are people who accomplish their "duty" Usually imposed using Fe. Can be imposed using Se as well but most countries have already abolished slavery. Duty imposed by Te can have corporate qualities. Leading Fi would be someone completing what they promised to do regardless of the illogic of it. From Le Petit Prince the torch bearer who had to continue lighting and extinguishing the lamp even though the speed of his planet's rotation increased to a full rotation every minute.
Imagination: Another difficult adjective, this time for Ne. Imagine being inside Joker's mind, its an MC Escher sketch of nuttiness, or a children's book with an ass pull ending. Where no amount of duty, understanding, anger or force really mean anything because the universe exists in a micro cosm. The only people who will make it out are the ones who can use the twisted logic. E.g. "I was stuck in a room made of 6 sides of blackboard and had a magical piece of chalk that never ended. It was my nightmare, math for all eternity. Then I had an idea, I broke the piece of chalk in half, and put the two halves back together to make a whole, and put that hole on the wall thus allowing me to escape through it." Seeing a potential in something even with complete lack of Ti/Te. This however, is much more difficult to discuss because Ne never actually invents anything new, it simply discovers what is already there and simply unused. Really I just hate Ne types who can't leave things well enough alone.
Relaxation: Another non-leading function. Si get people to relax. By most common definitions the opposite of "leading" It gets people to not do things. Leading in Si allows people to calm other people or else relax them. A massage therapist can lead a person to a better state of Si. Si can also be used for torture. Which is what makes NT types harder to break. Si as a leader function (not leading, but the ability to lead with an SI) would be mandatory for any spa resorts, or yoga or hippie smoky, druggy dens of villainy.
At some point I got bored of writing this article so if you have complaints about the second half go lead with your Si function and perform urethral milking on an equine.
Leading: Setting an example, front of the pack. Not necessarily the best, just in front. This applies to whomever has the strongest grasp upon a particular function. If the following information makes sense (Ti) and the forum agrees to it, then I am a "leader" in the area of Ti. You can lead with any function, but not have it be your main function.
Persuasion: Ability to influence people to bend to your will, usually by perception (Fe) People follow you because they are "moved" to emotionally. Many riots have Fe leaders. Hitler was a famous Fe leader. That female teacher in your class who's flaming ovaries can set ablaze all the established patriarchal culture, make some students cry, and yells for no apparent reason is an Fe.
Command: The ability to impose your will upon people using indirect threat (Se) People follow you because they will get hurt if they do not. Many front line military commanders are Se, ideally an ESTP who have Ti as a second function and leave the ethics for their nation to decide. Se as a leading function also allows for a more controlled body mechanics (S types are generally better athletes) Alexander the Great may have been an ESTP instead of the commonly mispercieved ENTJ. He fought on the front lines sometimes so far ahead of his own company that his own men he would be surrounded by the enemy
Resource Management: The ability to use logic to allocate resources in an environment (Te) People follow you because they either understand that your logic, or because you pay Se/Fe types to make them use their abilities to do the same. Te is about efficiency and effectiveness. Bringing order to chaos. The world is in a constant state of flux and chaos and therefore a properly developed Te leader can bring the world back from the brink of destruction. A war can be won without firing a single shot. Romans were experts at logistics but bad at tactics, hence their loss to Germanic tribes.
Control: The ability to understand the inner workings of prebuilt systems and interfaces.(Ti) A computer is a system, and understanding how it works allows people to control them. Leading in Ti has many strange effects. Ti knowledge of anatomy (doctors), psychology(obviously psychiatrists, torturers, socionists) computers(Hollywood hackers).
Pro-Action: The ability to predict future events based on past events, as well as the ability to see through distortions in the real world. This one is obvious, prophets are usually "enlightened" having both Ni and Ne at their disposal. Anyone who can predict the future or simply perceive a current problem can in a sense "lead" people and this has usually been the case. In order for many dictators to maintain corrupt control they must suppress understanding (Ti) an propagate lies i.e. propaganda (snuffing out Ni) and either promise people something (Ne) or make sure they are aware that they have no hope (negative Ne)
Duty: Difficult to add an adjective to this one. Fi are people who accomplish their "duty" Usually imposed using Fe. Can be imposed using Se as well but most countries have already abolished slavery. Duty imposed by Te can have corporate qualities. Leading Fi would be someone completing what they promised to do regardless of the illogic of it. From Le Petit Prince the torch bearer who had to continue lighting and extinguishing the lamp even though the speed of his planet's rotation increased to a full rotation every minute.
Imagination: Another difficult adjective, this time for Ne. Imagine being inside Joker's mind, its an MC Escher sketch of nuttiness, or a children's book with an ass pull ending. Where no amount of duty, understanding, anger or force really mean anything because the universe exists in a micro cosm. The only people who will make it out are the ones who can use the twisted logic. E.g. "I was stuck in a room made of 6 sides of blackboard and had a magical piece of chalk that never ended. It was my nightmare, math for all eternity. Then I had an idea, I broke the piece of chalk in half, and put the two halves back together to make a whole, and put that hole on the wall thus allowing me to escape through it." Seeing a potential in something even with complete lack of Ti/Te. This however, is much more difficult to discuss because Ne never actually invents anything new, it simply discovers what is already there and simply unused. Really I just hate Ne types who can't leave things well enough alone.
Relaxation: Another non-leading function. Si get people to relax. By most common definitions the opposite of "leading" It gets people to not do things. Leading in Si allows people to calm other people or else relax them. A massage therapist can lead a person to a better state of Si. Si can also be used for torture. Which is what makes NT types harder to break. Si as a leader function (not leading, but the ability to lead with an SI) would be mandatory for any spa resorts, or yoga or hippie smoky, druggy dens of villainy.
At some point I got bored of writing this article so if you have complaints about the second half go lead with your Si function and perform urethral milking on an equine.
Previous post already too long so I'll amend it from here.
As per "P" being a bad leader this is wrong. ESTP/ESFP have "Se" as a first function. P/J really has nothing to do with any of the functions and is only used as a stereotype.
Everyone is making another mistake. They ask "Which types are X, Y, Z" looking for a stereotype to justify something. They should be looking at the functional analysis of their positions. All ENTJ stereotype poster's I've seen are mostly false. The closes one was some Trek poster about assimilation, futile resistance etc.
The best leader is different for each situation.
ESTP: Best commonly perceived leader. Aggressive, domineering, imposing, will slice you if you don't listen. Kratos from God of War. Charismatic leaders of a street gang. Perfect for military operations, beating the slaves, mugging you.
ESFP: Bitchiest commonly perceived leader. They will yell at you and make you do things because they said so. Those around them will make you do it because they want the ESFP to shut up and stop causing them problems.
ENTJ: Just like the archetype, executives. You'll never see an executive yelling at some grunt employee. They will however, pay an ESTP to beat you up. Se and Fi in their Super Id block means that they have no ability to impose their will upon people (or will suffer psychologically later) and have no sense of what people should do because of their duties. Mostly focusing on what is the most efficient method of doing X. Therefore they are willing to break protocol, but usually they set the protocols and make up for contingencies.
INTJ: The dude in that movie where that vehicle goes to some dangerous location and something bad happens and hes the scientist guy who figures out how much time they have to live. Possibly a hacker.
INTP: Death Note L. Really there isn't a better real or fictional example of how an Ni can lead using Ni/Ne.
ENTP: Willy Wonka. Or that crazy scientist from that movie where he invents some insane way of doing X. Hubert J. Farnsworth solved global warming by having all the robots on Earth exhale in one direction thus causing the earth to move further away from the sun.
ISTP: Hitman movie. Dude can "see and remember everything" knows the limits of his own body. Uses Te to supplement it. Stun artists.
ISFP: Have some cookies and relax.
I'm getting bored, someone else finish the list.
As per "P" being a bad leader this is wrong. ESTP/ESFP have "Se" as a first function. P/J really has nothing to do with any of the functions and is only used as a stereotype.
Everyone is making another mistake. They ask "Which types are X, Y, Z" looking for a stereotype to justify something. They should be looking at the functional analysis of their positions. All ENTJ stereotype poster's I've seen are mostly false. The closes one was some Trek poster about assimilation, futile resistance etc.
The best leader is different for each situation.
ESTP: Best commonly perceived leader. Aggressive, domineering, imposing, will slice you if you don't listen. Kratos from God of War. Charismatic leaders of a street gang. Perfect for military operations, beating the slaves, mugging you.
ESFP: Bitchiest commonly perceived leader. They will yell at you and make you do things because they said so. Those around them will make you do it because they want the ESFP to shut up and stop causing them problems.
ENTJ: Just like the archetype, executives. You'll never see an executive yelling at some grunt employee. They will however, pay an ESTP to beat you up. Se and Fi in their Super Id block means that they have no ability to impose their will upon people (or will suffer psychologically later) and have no sense of what people should do because of their duties. Mostly focusing on what is the most efficient method of doing X. Therefore they are willing to break protocol, but usually they set the protocols and make up for contingencies.
INTJ: The dude in that movie where that vehicle goes to some dangerous location and something bad happens and hes the scientist guy who figures out how much time they have to live. Possibly a hacker.
INTP: Death Note L. Really there isn't a better real or fictional example of how an Ni can lead using Ni/Ne.
ENTP: Willy Wonka. Or that crazy scientist from that movie where he invents some insane way of doing X. Hubert J. Farnsworth solved global warming by having all the robots on Earth exhale in one direction thus causing the earth to move further away from the sun.
ISTP: Hitman movie. Dude can "see and remember everything" knows the limits of his own body. Uses Te to supplement it. Stun artists.
ISFP: Have some cookies and relax.
I'm getting bored, someone else finish the list.
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I enjoyed both your posts. And I largely agree with this: one question, though. ENTJ is stereotypically viewed as the "military officer" type, not ESTP. Why do you think this is?
I did a post about this in the military section. ENTJ make for better pen pusher generals. ESTP make for best front line commanders. Both are officers but different offices.
ENTJ:
Te: Logistics, good at making sure soldiers are in position, supply lines, starving the enemy, army marches on its stomach.
Ni: Understanding time lines, how battles work out.
Fi in the super-id block means its weak and vulnerable. Therefore an ENTJ general will feel the burden of every single soldier death.
Se in the super-id block means they don't impose their will upon people. They don't yell at someone to do something but they will mobilize an entire army to save a single soldier from behind enemy lines in order to satisfy their subconscious Fi. We see this constantly in military movies "I'm not leaving one of my men out there" "He's lost let it go!" *Gets in a helicopter himself to go to the field*
Fe/Si in Id block means that they only have automatic pilot for group feeling and sensitivity(relaxing). So they don't care how people perceive them, as long as they listen (good against hippies) and can work all night without recognizing they haven't eaten in 48 hours and need someone else to forcefully put them to bed/breakfast.
Ne/Ti in super ego block allow for subconsciously coming up with possibilities without them becoming overwhelming in the face of what needs to be done. Ti allows for a subconscious understanding of how things work, without needing to understand it that much. I.e. Knowledge of weapons, but never really needing to use them.
Because of a strong Te and a weak Si, ENTJ are able to manipulate their environment and resist pain. Which is why most end game bosses are ENTJ and are impossible to kill. Play Cod4 MW2 for a clean understanding of ENTJ resilience and unfortunately for the evil stereotype.
ESTP are GREAT field commanders. If you have a colonel ESTP, send him to the field. They can impose their will and ST in their main blocks means they are really in touch with their bodies and the environment. ISTPs make for good snipers/assasins, ISTJ for assault troopers. ISTPs can't really follow orders as well and are better off as rangers working alone with a high degree of freedom of action/choice.
ESTP are also mirrors to ISTJ compounding their usefullness. Mirror partners are bad for discussion but great for work. In past centuries INFPs were good for lyrics, and in medieval fantasy would be good bards. ENFJ can also be good at persuading and rallying the ISTJs troops. If this combination looks familiar its because its the Beta quadra. Betas are the best for field operations. ESTP: Spec ops/commander, ISTJ: troopers, INFP: Lyricist/Banner/Bard/Mistrel, ENFJ: Not really sure. Probably just good for screaming.
Alpha quadra for inventing new weapons. Gamma quadra for controlling the direction of the army. Delta quadra for maintenance/moral support.
Can ENTJ/ESTP be interchangeable? Absolutely. In fact they will end an encounter almost the same. The only difference being that ESTP will primarily use their own bodies to accomplish a task, while an ENTJ will use the surroundings. Kind of like moving a ship around an ocean vs moving the ocean around the ship.
However, ESTP will feel more at home in the field. ENTJ can pull off either just as well but it would be a waste not to have them "leading" the army. ISTJ would follow an ENTJ lead because they are illusionary partners and also have a similar work relationship, but this one would be out of respect and not rank, although a tier in both would be present.
ENTJ:
Te: Logistics, good at making sure soldiers are in position, supply lines, starving the enemy, army marches on its stomach.
Ni: Understanding time lines, how battles work out.
Fi in the super-id block means its weak and vulnerable. Therefore an ENTJ general will feel the burden of every single soldier death.
Se in the super-id block means they don't impose their will upon people. They don't yell at someone to do something but they will mobilize an entire army to save a single soldier from behind enemy lines in order to satisfy their subconscious Fi. We see this constantly in military movies "I'm not leaving one of my men out there" "He's lost let it go!" *Gets in a helicopter himself to go to the field*
Fe/Si in Id block means that they only have automatic pilot for group feeling and sensitivity(relaxing). So they don't care how people perceive them, as long as they listen (good against hippies) and can work all night without recognizing they haven't eaten in 48 hours and need someone else to forcefully put them to bed/breakfast.
Ne/Ti in super ego block allow for subconsciously coming up with possibilities without them becoming overwhelming in the face of what needs to be done. Ti allows for a subconscious understanding of how things work, without needing to understand it that much. I.e. Knowledge of weapons, but never really needing to use them.
Because of a strong Te and a weak Si, ENTJ are able to manipulate their environment and resist pain. Which is why most end game bosses are ENTJ and are impossible to kill. Play Cod4 MW2 for a clean understanding of ENTJ resilience and unfortunately for the evil stereotype.
ESTP are GREAT field commanders. If you have a colonel ESTP, send him to the field. They can impose their will and ST in their main blocks means they are really in touch with their bodies and the environment. ISTPs make for good snipers/assasins, ISTJ for assault troopers. ISTPs can't really follow orders as well and are better off as rangers working alone with a high degree of freedom of action/choice.
ESTP are also mirrors to ISTJ compounding their usefullness. Mirror partners are bad for discussion but great for work. In past centuries INFPs were good for lyrics, and in medieval fantasy would be good bards. ENFJ can also be good at persuading and rallying the ISTJs troops. If this combination looks familiar its because its the Beta quadra. Betas are the best for field operations. ESTP: Spec ops/commander, ISTJ: troopers, INFP: Lyricist/Banner/Bard/Mistrel, ENFJ: Not really sure. Probably just good for screaming.
Alpha quadra for inventing new weapons. Gamma quadra for controlling the direction of the army. Delta quadra for maintenance/moral support.
Can ENTJ/ESTP be interchangeable? Absolutely. In fact they will end an encounter almost the same. The only difference being that ESTP will primarily use their own bodies to accomplish a task, while an ENTJ will use the surroundings. Kind of like moving a ship around an ocean vs moving the ocean around the ship.
However, ESTP will feel more at home in the field. ENTJ can pull off either just as well but it would be a waste not to have them "leading" the army. ISTJ would follow an ENTJ lead because they are illusionary partners and also have a similar work relationship, but this one would be out of respect and not rank, although a tier in both would be present.
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I was just reading the previous thread entj/enfp friendships there and i had a thought. An entj leader with an enfp confidant would make a great leader. An enfp would help the entj stay in power longer as he/she would be all the more likeable for all the insights gained from the enfp.Keep your minions happy and it will be easier to make them bend to your will! So don't be getting too carried away on your high horses all you entj's! You're only as good as your enfp friend!!!!:tongue:
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Great post but seriously, there's no way Kratos was an E. I'm saying he's a total ISTP. He was a commander of his spartan soldiers yes, however, when did he really act extroverted a lot?. When he met someone new, things usually turned out this way:
Person A: *introduces himself and talks on"
Kratos: *says a few words", *brutally murders person*
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