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This could mean both platonic and in romantic relationships.

I was just thinking the last two significant guys who I actually liked more so that I dated seemed really wrapped up in my ability at times to come off like a sailor. It's not like I always am a sailor. But I seem to come off rough around the edges a lot. I also had a friend a while ago now who broke up being friends with me because she found me offensive.

All these people mentioned 'class'. I think class is not directly correlated with grace or etiquette.

Of course one does have to assess themselves and how they come across to others on some level and consider if it's valid. But I am a little confused granted I know sometimes my humor can be tacky but I think I have a decent vocabulary and ability to articulate myself where I don't just sound belligerent.

I certainly don't go out of my way to be an obnoxious sailor who offends or annoys people however I always think I am censoring myself a lot the way it is :laughing: so the fact that when I am censoring myself to adapt to sensitive reality and people still find my delivery uncouth makes me wonder if it's possibly something other ESTP females have dealt with.
 

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Why does this post have to be so sexist?
Oh well that was not my intention I just thought ESTP males get a free pass maybe because they are guys? Am I wrong do you deal with this a lot too? By all means share if that's the case. Definitely not trying to leave you guys out in a rude way. Excuse me if I am wrong but I thought chicks dig you guys more so because of the stuff I was asking seems to repel others from women. I don't mean this nearly as sexist as it's coming out though I am asking?
 

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Oh well that was not my intention I just thought ESTP males get a free pass maybe because they are guys? Am I wrong do you deal with this a lot too? By all means share if that's the case. Definitely not trying to leave you guys out in a rude way. Excuse me if I am wrong but I thought chicks dig you guys more so because of the stuff I was asking seems to repel others from women. I don't mean this nearly as sexist as it's coming out though I am asking?
It ain't sexist to ask women have had the same or similar experiences.*

Anyway, your response has merit in that the definition of class tends to be different for men and women. You should also take into account that certain behaviors tend to be desirous for men and repulsive for women.*

For instance, my ESTP brother stays getting laid largely because his bed partners love that he's "rough around the edges" or a diamond in the rough. They seem to like the idea of turning him into a fixer-upper *project, whereas a female-version of him would be called a hoodrat with no class or decorum. *

I would like some examples though, esp regarding your friend that broke up with.*
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
It ain't sexist to ask women have had the same or similar experiences.*

Anyway, your response has merit in that the definition of class tends to be different for men and women. You should also take into account that certain behaviors tend to be desirous for men and repulsive for women.*

For instance, my ESTP brother stays getting laid largely because his bed partners love that he's "rough around the edges" or a diamond in the rough. They seem to like the idea of turning him into a fixer-upper *project, whereas a female-version of him would be called a hoodrat with no class or decorum. *

I would like some examples though, esp regarding your friend that broke up with.*
The first guy who found me tacky I dated over a year ago. He basically was obsessed with getting my partner count. I really didn't act flamboyant around him or provocative or anything of that nature. I think he just knew I was not exactly innocent and have been around the block a few times and I was confident sexually with him. (Honestly I think I intimidated him). He was basically obsessed with how he would stack next to previous partners and was pretty obsessed with hounding me on getting a number I avoided the subject for a while. Eventually though he fixated and hounded me so much I gave him my number. He basically verbally assaulted me about it and I ended up breaking things off with him because of it. He seemed more so to attribute his view to a personification of me in image than that I specifically displayed any overt tacky behavior really so much then.

The more recent guy I dumped today. He basically had made a few small comments already. But for example today I commented I was on the rag last week. He found this language so vulgar. Now had he expressed the language offended him in an appropriate way I would have considered modifications. But he ended up commenting on I sounded like I had no education and came from a trailer park. (Well he did know I had a compromised education and grew up in a trailer court) it seemed more like a jab at social/economic class differences. Well that was grounds for dismissal because I don't think me commenting I was on the rag last week (even if vulgar) is grounds to be spoken down to for things in a very distant past.

The friend I remember for example once when we were still friends told me at my birthday dinner when I turned 20 I was dressed like a slut and an attention whore and she found it so annoying how I always needed all eyes on me (this was years ago now, I had a pleated skirt, with thigh high stockings on and knee high boots, and a turtleneck sweater on. I always loved going and dancing she always found it annoying because I would totally get up on tables and bars and dance (um this was a long ass time ago now :laughing: ) so yeah I was more wild etc. but we had a dynamic outside that stuff too. I mean I was not just some shit friend always monopolizing attention. I went out of my way to try and do quite a few special things for her and invite her into social settings etc. She more so came up in thought because she had brought up at a few points how she was 'classy' as opposed to me. She was so long ago and I did learn to let others shine and to chill back a bit after that.

I am not really trying to argue I am the most refined person in a room but I obviously come off tacky to some people.
 

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The first guy who found me tacky I dated over a year ago. He basically was obsessed with getting my partner count. I really didn't act flamboyant around him or provocative or anything of that nature. I think he just knew I was not exactly innocent and have been around the block a few times and I was confident sexually with him. (Honestly I think I intimidated him). He was basically obsessed with how he would stack next to previous partners and was pretty obsessed with hounding me on getting a number I avoided the subject for a while. Eventually though he fixated and hounded me so much I gave him my number. He basically verbally assaulted me about it and I ended up breaking things off with him because of it. He seemed more so to attribute his view to a personification of me in image than that I specifically displayed any overt tacky behavior really so much then.

The more recent guy I dumped today. He basically had made a few small comments already. But for example today I commented I was on the rag last week. He found this language so vulgar. Now had he expressed the language offended him in an appropriate way I would have considered modifications. But he ended up commenting on I sounded like I had no education and came from a trailer park. (Well he did know I had a compromised education and grew up in a trailer court) it seemed more like a jab at social/economic class differences. Well that was grounds for dismissal because I don't think me commenting I was on the rag last week (even if vulgar) is grounds to be spoken down to for things in a very distant past.

The friend I remember for example once when we were still friends told me at my birthday dinner when I turned 20 I was dressed like a slut and an attention whore and she found it so annoying how I always needed all eyes on me (this was years ago now, I had a pleated skirt, with thigh high stockings on and knee high boots, and a turtleneck sweater on. I always loved going and dancing she always found it annoying because I would totally get up on tables and bars and dance (um this was a long ass time ago now :laughing: ) so yeah I was more wild etc. but we had a dynamic outside that stuff too. I mean I was not just some shit friend always monopolizing attention. I went out of my way to try and do quite a few special things for her and invite her into social settings etc. She more so came up in thought because she had brought up at a few points how she was 'classy' as opposed to me. She was so long ago and I did learn to let others shine and to chill back a bit after that.

I am not really trying to argue I am the most refined person in a room but I obviously come off tacky to some people.
If those examples are the worst you have to offer, then you're better off without those people. "On the rag" sounds like a trailer park saying? And the number hound looking for a reason to degrade you should take a look at himself.

I can uptight as hell and I didn't find what you listed offensive. lmao what a mess.
 
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No, as an ESTP female, I don't experience this. I may come across as a little intimidating because I can be outspoken and display my anger and annoyance more readily than my love and affection, but no one has ever suggested that I'm "rough around the edges."
 

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Women more likely to repel? I am not sure. The mechanism by which an ESTP blurts out the no-so-classy remarks is based on Ti and if you haven't offended someone with Ti, I am not sure you can call yourself an ESTP. But Sensational, even on our little forum here, your language doesn't reflect your insight and intelligence.

I remember one time that I was told a drug didn't cause drowsiness but somnolence, and in my head, I though "what b.s." but how many people know what somnolence is? ESTPs wrongly assume others can cut through the b.s. as easily as we can; this is a gift the NTs, many of whom are narcissists, infect each other with. They don't tell the world they are the same thing but marvel in their "superior intelligence" that they are in on the somnolence-drowsiness joke. Language and words have power.

You aren't flipping the script. The guy hounding you about the number of men you have been with was doing two things: trying to tactfully call you a slut and shame you as to control you and seeing where he ranked with all your previous lovers as to feel special; he wanted to know if he was the best. That is the weird part about bagging a perceived easy target as a man. The first question you want to ask the woman is, "You don't just do this with everyone this easily... right?"

As others are not the bs detectors we are and are in much better touch with their feelings, truth is not as important to them. Scott Adams said persuasion or the ability to change how others feel is based first on identity, second on feelings, and lastly on facts. Unlike ESTPs, who desperately need the facts correct to make decisions, others are not like that and even we aren't always as well.

One time, I asked my son whose pancakes are better: mine or IHOP's. He said IHOP, and I said he was being rude, and he got my joke. He then asked, "Do you want me to lie to you?" I said "Of course I do. Now who's pancakes are better?", and he said, "Yours are dad.", and I said "I am very proud of you son... for telling the truth.", and we both laughed.

I have been in the guys shoes before and the best response would have been "I have been lucky enough to be in the company of several wonderful men (thus doing the NT thing of making him feel like he is part of some special club) but no one makes me feel the way you do." You are affirming his identity and making him feel special but giving yourself an out. What does the phrase "no one makes me feel the way you do" really mean? It's enough to make him think it's a compliment but maybe it isn't. You are using his insecurity against him not feeling threatened by it. By our nature, ESTPs don't think much of having power over others as we think of ourselves as no better than others, but often we are waaaay better than others, and the image we present is critical to gaining our deserved power/acclaims.

So play the game of coming up with the best way to say "fuck you" but doing so and having plausible deniability. Instead of saying "that is the stupidest thing I haven't ever heard", you say "I am not sure that is wise". Instead of "you are being an asshole", you say "I don't find this behavior acceptable." Do you know how politicians get away with war and the genocide of millions? They cloak it in politically correct forum of acceptable language. That is a power, and you are giving it away with your self accepted crudeness.

So Sensational, your choice of language is hurting your own image and thus your own power and status in the world, and that is important, much more important than you realize. People desperately need intelligent ESTPs like yourself to take the lead, but it is not going to happen if your language turns people off. I repeat persuasion is identity first, feelings second, and facts third. Play that game to make yourself look better. Not everyone sees through the bs like we do and more importantly, so many other people don't really want the truth. Tell those people what they want to hear and do it in such a way that you aren't lying but being flexible with the truth. Somnolence not drowsiness.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Women more likely to repel? I am not sure. The mechanism by which an ESTP blurts out the no-so-classy remarks is based on Ti and if you haven't offended someone with Ti, I am not sure you can call yourself an ESTP. But Sensational, even on our little forum here, your language doesn't reflect your insight and intelligence.

I remember one time that I was told a drug didn't cause drowsiness but somnolence, and in my head, I though "what b.s." but how many people know what somnolence is? ESTPs wrongly assume others can cut through the b.s. as easily as we can; this is a gift the NTs, many of whom are narcissists, infect each other with. They don't tell the world they are the same thing but marvel in their "superior intelligence" that they are in on the somnolence-drowsiness joke. Language and words have power.

You aren't flipping the script. The guy hounding you about the number of men you have been with was doing two things: trying to tactfully call you a slut and shame you as to control you and seeing where he ranked with all your previous lovers as to feel special; he wanted to know if he was the best. That is the weird part about bagging a perceived easy target as a man. The first question you want to ask the woman is, "You don't just do this with everyone this easily... right?"

As others are not the bs detectors we are and are in much better touch with their feelings, truth is not as important to them. Scott Adams said persuasion or the ability to change how others feel is based first on identity, second on feelings, and lastly on facts. Unlike ESTPs, who desperately need the facts correct to make decisions, others are not like that and even we aren't always as well.

One time, I asked my son whose pancakes are better: mine or IHOP's. He said IHOP, and I said he was being rude, and he got my joke. He then asked, "Do you want me to lie to you?" I said "Of course I do. Now who's pancakes are better?", and he said, "Yours are dad.", and I said "I am very proud of you son... for telling the truth.", and we both laughed.

I have been in the guys shoes before and the best response would have been "I have been lucky enough to be in the company of several wonderful men (thus doing the NT thing of making him feel like he is part of some special club) but no one makes me feel the way you do." You are affirming his identity and making him feel special but giving yourself an out. What does the phrase "no one makes me feel the way you do" really mean? It's enough to make him think it's a compliment but maybe it isn't. You are using his insecurity against him not feeling threatened by it. By our nature, ESTPs don't think much of having power over others as we think of ourselves as no better than others, but often we are waaaay better than others, and the image we present is critical to gaining our deserved power/acclaims.

So play the game of coming up with the best way to say "fuck you" but doing so and having plausible deniability. Instead of saying "that is the stupidest thing I haven't ever heard", you say "I am not sure that is wise". Instead of "you are being an asshole", you say "I don't find this behavior acceptable." Do you know how politicians get away with war and the genocide of millions? They cloak it in politically correct forum of acceptable language. That is a power, and you are giving it away with your self accepted crudeness.

So Sensational, your choice of language is hurting your own image and thus your own power and status in the world, and that is important, much more important than you realize. People desperately need intelligent ESTPs like yourself to take the lead, but it is not going to happen if your language turns people off. I repeat persuasion is identity first, feelings second, and facts third. Play that game to make yourself look better. Not everyone sees through the bs like we do and more importantly, so many other people don't really want the truth. Tell those people what they want to hear and do it in such a way that you aren't lying but being flexible with the truth. Somnolence not drowsiness.
I think this was a very powerful message, which I needed to hear in the way you said it. I believe my INFJ sister has tried to voice this herself, but because she is INFJ her delivery was far different. Hence the message got lost in her delivery. Obviously though, this message has a lot of meaning. You're right. I really do need to stop giving people so much power, and consider how I am portraying myself. It obviously is not a light switch I can turn on and off overnight. But you're right, I really need to try and make a conscious effort to start exercising this. I certainly need to retrain myself these displays, starting with where I can catch myself.

You really did hit the nail on the head. I am feeding this, and allowing this transfer of power to happen by giving it away! It does start with retraining my delivery. I have definitely been anxious more recently, and had a sense of loss of control. Which I usually think I can navigate better. I do think you're pinpointing what is happening and putting that back into perspective.

I really genuinely appreciate the kind things you said. But more specifically your identifying the source of this issue and calling it out.
 

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Not a female, but my ex isfj found me to be insentive at times. I used to have to up the anti with her by playfully grabbing her cheeck like a chipmunk or banter with her to let her know I was kidding.
 
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@elvis2010 I always assumed ENTJs and ENTPs were cerebral narcisst, where as us ESTPs are somatic narcisst. It would make sense as we like nice stuff like cars and riches, where they like to defend their disposition like it was the last day on earth. I remember dealing with one of the ENTJs on this board and am certain he'd fail the NPI. I once knew a criminal defense attorney ENTP who actually used to praise herself on getting people of the off the hooks and did not care about the idea of attorney client privaledges.
 
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I get your point. Whenever i was being myself also, as i was a guy inside a girl's body... Guys just suddenly get turned off to me. XD

Like, i actually behave like a guy. Specially if I'm comfortable with the person.

I think, most guys just expect girls to behave like a girl.

some guys have this sort of ideals and standards about what is to look for a girl.

So whenever they see that the girl they like is more manly than them, they would try to change the girl.

Because guys wanted to FEEL masculine.. And having a masculine girl frustrates them on that.

That's why they love classy, submissive girls.
 

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The first guy who found me tacky I dated over a year ago. He basically was obsessed with getting my partner count. I really didn't act flamboyant around him or provocative or anything of that nature. I think he just knew I was not exactly innocent and have been around the block a few times and I was confident sexually with him. (Honestly I think I intimidated him). He was basically obsessed with how he would stack next to previous partners and was pretty obsessed with hounding me on getting a number I avoided the subject for a while. Eventually though he fixated and hounded me so much I gave him my number. He basically verbally assaulted me about it and I ended up breaking things off with him because of it. He seemed more so to attribute his view to a personification of me in image than that I specifically displayed any overt tacky behavior really so much then.

The more recent guy I dumped today. He basically had made a few small comments already. But for example today I commented I was on the rag last week. He found this language so vulgar. Now had he expressed the language offended him in an appropriate way I would have considered modifications. But he ended up commenting on I sounded like I had no education and came from a trailer park. (Well he did know I had a compromised education and grew up in a trailer court) it seemed more like a jab at social/economic class differences. Well that was grounds for dismissal because I don't think me commenting I was on the rag last week (even if vulgar) is grounds to be spoken down to for things in a very distant past.

The friend I remember for example once when we were still friends told me at my birthday dinner when I turned 20 I was dressed like a slut and an attention whore and she found it so annoying how I always needed all eyes on me (this was years ago now, I had a pleated skirt, with thigh high stockings on and knee high boots, and a turtleneck sweater on. I always loved going and dancing she always found it annoying because I would totally get up on tables and bars and dance (um this was a long ass time ago now :laughing: ) so yeah I was more wild etc. but we had a dynamic outside that stuff too. I mean I was not just some shit friend always monopolizing attention. I went out of my way to try and do quite a few special things for her and invite her into social settings etc. She more so came up in thought because she had brought up at a few points how she was 'classy' as opposed to me. She was so long ago and I did learn to let others shine and to chill back a bit after that.

I am not really trying to argue I am the most refined person in a room but I obviously come off tacky to some people.
All of the examples makes me think of surface level judgmental/shallow people that do not deserve your time unless, a necessity.

The term "Classy" is thrown around so often but, it really is just a perception. Some of the "Classiest" people are really the most deceptive/trashy. They generally, are just faking it, hide things or do things behind closed doors that no one sees (that are way more disturbing or disgusting than the people they call/consider trashy) and they are the worst kind of hypocrites.

Some people have the advantage of being raised learning the proper verbiage, manners or technique in which to convey themselves. Some have to learn and some do not care to.

I think in order to be successful in anything self improvement is a plus. Even, with the people that deem themselves "classy" they have other areas to improve in that you have long since conquered. You, just do not feel the need to go around casting judgement and throwing it in their face. No one can be taught to be a good person and have an upstanding character. It is a choice. I digress....lol

Point being, how you convey yourself is important but, with people you trust, love or get comfortable with, everyone gets lax. It is the level where you get comfortable and on a deeper level you should not feel less than.

You know if you are a good person. Your intention is pure. Pretentious, pompous people feel the need to bash on something they do not understand or choose not to obtain. Unfortunately, this is the way of the world. Everyone (even you or I) make a judgement call upon first meetings or encounters that deal with how people convey themselves....demeanor, verbiage.....ect.

It seems to be bothering you, retrain your brain/tweak yourself to verbally, convey yourself differently. Minor adjustments with in ourselves can be rewarding and are sign of growth regardless. But, as far as close relations, this seems more like a weeding out of undeserving people.

I am not sure if this makes sense but, I hope it helps. : )

P.S. To answer the first post...I would say I am considered more outspoken, blunt or a straight shooter verses rough around the edges. I guess it would depend on who you ask...I verbally am different depending on the person. If they are close to me, I am not as proper.
 

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I've been with a fare amount of women and don't find it personally necessary to keep going, as STDs and STIs don't seem ideal to me. I plan on getting back together with my ex ISFJ and hopefully moving forward with her.
 

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I've been with a fare amount of women and don't find it personally necessary to keep going, as STDs and STIs don't seem ideal to me. I plan on getting back together with my ex ISFJ and hopefully moving forward with her.
Ummmm.....sounds like a good goal. Did you mean to post in this thread?
 

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Haha yes. Sorry if it's not relevant here. Just thought I'd throw and go haha.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I think after I let things play out a bit further with the most recent scenario it was clear It was more so an unhealthy person with a chip on their shoulder who seemed to just more so like to project onto others. Of course I have my moments where I can be human and tacky. I think though this recent person was just trying to hit low and bring me down because ultimately I just was not feeding their ego what they wanted.

I did appreciate the insight from a few of you thanks
 

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99% of the time when I say something crass, it's in jest or I'm roasting somebody in front of an audience and everyone (especially men) seem to love that about me.

I never can understand why men in particular like my masculinity. Women either are the same as me or sort of just pause whenever my lewd or direct comments attract male attention.
 

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perhaps I am being a knee-jerk reactive dick right now but in my opinion anybody who needs to put you down, especially a lover, is a fuck face. I definitely do not value people who have to put other people down and who have no tact, I don't care what kind of rough language you are using, or if you are the most crass woman on earth, nobody needs to make you over.

I do find a lot of value in the post from earlier about leveraging your language to give yourself the power that was very insightful, and it certainly is valuable to have social graces and be aware of the rules, if only so when you are breaking them you are well aware you are breaking them and you are doing so intentionally. I play this game constantly, I've read several etiquette books and several social dynamics books and I understand where the lines are and when I break them it is with the full intention to make people as uncomfortable as possible.

but I still don't have any patience for people who are playing sexual games trying to make someone else feel slutty or like they are second rate. That is cheap behavior that is only befitting a piece of trash and where I come from we put trash on the curb where it belongs. You deserve better sensational. I have offended several people with my coarse language because I swear constantly and I consider that to be great because if you cannot deal with harsh language there is no way you can deal with hard truth. I don't need to be surrounded by pussies and I certainly don't need to pander to weak people. Weak people need to be under my shoe where they belong. :D I only play that game with people who do not matter to me, people I have to manipulate are people who I do not want close to me, inner circle people get the cold unvarnished a realness. and honestly? I get thanked for it regularly.
 
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