[jd_]

Warning, please do not take offense if you are a primary Fi user.

I am just boiling down theories and random observations.

Would you guys and gals say that in 'social situations' that Fi users are in general less considerate of others? If yes, would you also say that Fi users who's Fi is stacked in either a weakened Tertiary or Inferior slot are even less adept at being civil? E.G., this could be something for them to 'watch out for' or 'when things go awry' or an 'achilles heel' ...so to say.

My initial hypothesis, according to the theory and random observations, word choices, gestures is yes. Maybe others have seen this breakdown also?

Not that Fi users can't get that, but I think for this to take effect from a detached view they would have to A) have their subjective feelings line up "somewhat" closely with social norms.
then B) somehow apply that value set by reflecting those ideals on to others.

Thoughts?

 

[Stephen]

I think that Fi can seem inconsiderate and selfish from the perspective of an Fe user, just as Fe can seem inauthentic from the perspective of an Fi user. Fi is concerned with fairness and consistency of values, while Fe concerns itself more with making sure there is harmony between people. Most societies will traditionally value Fe over Fi, because Fi is more likely to rock the boat, and perhaps not do it in a delicate way, when something seems to be amiss.

 

[emerald sea]

it depends who's the recipient of the behavior, how it is perceived....what is considerate is dependent on the individual in question, because people vary somewhat in their preferences of how they want others to interact (or not interact) with them

i'm an Fe user and i'm not always considerate. Fe users and Fi users can both be considerate; Fe users and Fi users can both be inconsiderate. the same Fe or Fi user can be considerate sometimes and inconsiderate at other times. being considerate is more a matter of choice than it is of cognitive functions. anyone can choose to put someone else's interests above their own, and anyone can choose to put themself first. selfishness isn't a personality trait; it's a choice. it's really a matter of how selfish an individual is...so it will depend on the person, not the cognitive functions.

 

[INFJigsaw]

Well, I am thinking of 5 ISTJs that I know and they also happen to be some of the most considerate people I have ever met (and they have Fi as the third function). But it seems like when making judgements, they take into account fairness to all rather than worrying about upsetting certain individuals.

For example, if someone goes to see their boss and starts getting upset, an ESFJ boss might be tempted to give in to that person because seeing that employee sad makes the manager feel sad too and she wants to alleviate that sadness.

An ISTJ boss is more likely to stand firm because they know that if they give in to that person then it won't be fair to the other employees who may lose out from this decision. So although the ESFJ boss is being considerate to this one upset employee, the ISTJ boss is being considerate to all the employees including the ones who stay quiet and don't moan and complain to the boss.

While writing this, I had very specific people in mind (there is an ESFJ and an ISTJ manager in my workplace) so correct me if I'm generalising too much about ISTJs and ESFJs here. Also, this might be more about Fe versus Te rather than Fe versus Fi.

 

[2GiveMyHeart2]

I would assume it depends on the how far are the those cognitive functions are apart from each other. I am considerate to a certain extent. I do my consideration through good manners--please, thankyou, excuse me, etc. I try to be fair with others. But at the end of the day, I look out a little more for number 1. I don't know if that answers your question or not.

 

[Aizar]

The INFP I know is always knocking ME for being inconsiderate, not the other way around. I think one of her Fi values is to look out for everyone, though. We tend to occupy the same niche in groups as Big Mama and so things get hairy if we disagree about how best to mama things. I'd call her just as considerate as me, though, if not more so (as I tend to be easily distracted, which cuts down on my considering capability).

Two other Fi-users (one I think is INTJ, don't know about the other) I know are more "if you don't like it, f--- off"--and that strikes me as pretty selfish. I wouldn't call them inconsiderate as they "consider" other viewpoints, but they don't just don't "care" or think anyone else's viewpoint is more valid than theirs--ever.

 

[LotusBlossom]

I think that Fi can seem inconsiderate and selfish from the perspective of an Fe user, just as Fe can seem inauthentic from the perspective of an Fi user. Fi is concerned with fairness and consistency of values, while Fe concerns itself more with making sure there is harmony between people. Most societies will traditionally value Fe over Fi, because Fi is more likely to rock the boat, and perhaps not do it in a delicate way, when something seems to be amiss.

Well yes, because it doesn't correct the underlying pathology! Frustrates me so much because even if things look outwardly harmonious, the underlying problem can still continue to fester and in the long run it just makes things worse. People who are the least able to defend themselves get the worst part of the deal. But that's the status quo, and you know how I feel about people who insist on maintaining a shitty status quo.

edit: not talking about Fe users specifically or anyone in particular, just the kind of attitude that annoys me, extrapolating on what Stephen said.

 

[The Ultimate Square Peg]

It's interesting- I actually was briefly thinking this idea over after the whole Fe/Fi-WTF? thread scared me off.

These observations are strictly based on the confirmed people I know of these types, not generalizations. Simply from observations of individuals that I know, I think that it's not a matter of consideration or inconsideration as much as a value system. "What's more important?", so to speak. Whereas the Fe-dom users "grin and bear it" for the sake of keeping surface-level peace and avoiding conflict, the Fi-dom users are more likely to speak up and rock the boat a little if they feel it's necessary. Fi-doms don't seem to be quite as averted to conflict, disagreements or debates in general, as Fe-doms often do. They're more open to discussing touchy topics without feeling the need to "ease" tension, as Fe-doms sometimes do.

I can see how that could come across as inconsiderate to those who value external harmony (I've been put-off by many a Fi-dom in situations like I mentioned above), but I don't think it's actually inconsideration as much as a desire and drive to stick to their inner values, even if that causes a little external dissention.

I also would like to add that I think the difference between Fi and Fe users is much, much more pronounced when the dominant function.
Once it gets into the auxiliary or tertiary functions, it doesn't seem to have the same drastic difference.

 

[Vivid Melody]

It all comes down to maturity.

 

[Kynx]

All I know is that I've never been called selfish, none of the IN/SFP descriptions I've seen mention them being selfish and I've noticed any selfish IN/SFPs on here so far.
Their attitude on here seems considerate of others feelings and opinions. I've not seen any IN/SFPs trolling, for example.

I think it's safe to say their not selfish as a rule

 

[SalvinaZerelda]

Isn't it just an excess of Fi that causes problems?

 

[dulcinea]

I find it depends not just on the maturity of the Fi user but what they're values are. From what I understand, Fi is all about values and ideals. I would imagine that sometimes the ideals of a Fi user can overlap with the ideals of a Fe user, and thus sometimes a Fi user may actually be more considerate in certain situations because it's a strongly ingrained value. On the other hand, I've seen less mature Fe users show a lack of consideration for other people's feelings for the sake of "helping" that person. A Fe user usually has a lot of ideals about how people should be treated and it's probably from a different perspective than Fi users, but I think both can be equally considerate and equally inconsiderate, usually just for different reasons.

 

[Sequestrum]

The INFP I know is always knocking ME for being inconsiderate, not the other way around. I think one of her Fi values is to look out for everyone, though. We tend to occupy the same niche in groups as Big Mama and so things get hairy if we disagree about how best to mama things. I'd call her just as considerate as me, though, if not more so (as I tend to be easily distracted, which cuts down on my considering capability).

Two other Fi-users (one I think is INTJ, don't know about the other) I know are more "if you don't like it, f--- off"--and that strikes me as pretty selfish. I wouldn't call them inconsiderate as they "consider" other viewpoints, but they don't just don't "care" or think anyone else's viewpoint is more valid than theirs--ever.

I agree with most of what you said except the part about INTJ's. From what I have seen of the two I know and care for, they sometimes believe that others rationalize things the way they do, and that everyone does everything purposefully. So their attitude is if you have done something to hurt them in some way, you did it on purpose. Nothing is an accident or a miscommunication. It took me a while to get through to my INTJ friend and tell him that people don't think the way he does, and more often than not, people don't think as thoroughly about their actions as he does.

I just wish people would give each other a little more slack sometimes. I have caught myself doing this too though, when I reflect on those times, I always feel really bad about it afterword. I know there are a few times I have posted here where I made some harsh criticisms about the thoughts of others that I really shouldn't have.

I have actually caught myself thinking, more than once, that I don't want to understand a person because I wanted to keep hating them, and I knew that if I understood them, I probably wouldn't be able to hate them anymore. I had a mind to punch myself right across the face when I realized that.

 

[The Ultimate Square Peg]

On the other hand, I've seen less mature Fe users show a lack of consideration for other people's feelings for the sake of "helping" that person.

I think that's a very valid observation. One Fe-dom comes to mind...I was having trouble rationalizing how she could be a Fe-dom and yet be so blatantly controlling and manipulative (she's unhealthy, jsyk). But I do know that, in her mind, she is trying to "help." I think when it does go awry for Fe-doms, this is often the direction in which it goes.

 

[Ntuitive]

It all comes down to the individuals involved and the definition of considerate. I may see someone as being inconsiderate while no one else does. This happens all the time. I'll say "Why did you do that?" and everyone else will say "Who cares?" Or I might say something that I don't see as inconsiderate and everyone else does. And I'll say "Who cares?"

 

[GoodOldDreamer]

Well, it comes down to the nature of the functions. Fi users are considerate first and foremost to themselves, sometimes but not always at the cost of those around them. Fe users are considerate first and foremost to those around them, sometimes but not always at the cost of themselves. *shrug*

It's just a shift in focus is all. One isn't necessarily better or worse than the other. Where it gets bad or worse is when the person in question isn't healthy. I don't believe a healthy Fi user will go out of their way to be inconsiderate of someone around them without reason, nor do I believe an Fe user will be overly considerate of others without reason.

 

[mushr00m]

Well, it comes down to the nature of the functions. Fi users are considerate first and foremost to themselves, sometimes but not always at the cost of those around them. Fe users are considerate first and foremost to those around them, sometimes but not always at the cost of themselves. *shrug*

It's just a shift in focus is all. One isn't necessarily better or worse than the other. Where it gets bad or worse is when the person in question isn't healthy. I don't believe a healthy Fi user will go out of their way to be inconsiderate of someone around them without reason, nor do I believe an Fe user will be overly considerate of others without reason.

At what point though would that consideration at the expense of themselves be attributed to Fe though? For example, a young INFP grows up in an environment where the only way to be safe is to please others in order to protect themselves, maybe they grew up to be codependent, this does happen with an Fi user as it would an Fe user. Actually I feel like I have answered my own question in a way but the question in a way still remains.

 

[emerald sea]

what Ntuitive said is so true. the fact that we don't view someone's behavior as considerate does not mean they were not trying to be considerate by acting that way. people who are trying to be considerate tend to project on others the same feelings/desires they would have in a similar circumstance, and modify their behavior to match the way they would want others to treat them.

for instance, an INFP friend of mine gives others the freedom to express their individuality and accepts them as they are - that is, what she values having the most (the ability to live her life in harmony with her own internal compass - Fi), she tries to provide for others. for another example, those who want time alone to sort through their thoughts when they are upset may thus give others space when they seem upset, while those who wish to be able to vent to someone else and be validated will tend to ask others what is wrong and invite them to discuss it. these efforts are not always appreciated by others who do not value being treated the way the considerate individual is treating them.

we may be inadvertently offending others while thinking we are being considerate or doing no wrong, because our behavior would please us, or not offend us, if directed at us, but it is not the way the other individual wishes to be treated.

considerate people who are the most sensitive to the slightest offense tend to be the most careful about every little thing in how they interact with others (and even read offense in others where it does not exist, if they would have been offended by the same treatment); while considerate people who are less sensitive to criticism or harshness tend to direct that sort of treatment at others without necessarily realizing its effects, because they can't identify (by experience) with it being hurtful. however any considerate individual who is educated in what offends others will try to avoid doing what they know is offensive, even if it wouldn't be offensive to them themselves.

this is why any individual cannot just "toughen up" against the behaviors that they view as inconsiderate or offensive, IF their taking offense is a function of their perception and their values. one cannot simply go into their brain settings and change the default cognitive functions upon which all their brain programming is based. it is as impossible for an intuitive not to read into things beyond what is immediately visible or notice nuances, as it is for a sensor not to be aware of sensory details or not want to stick to the facts. it is as impossible for a thinker to identify with someone doing something that doesn't make logical sense, as it is for a feeler not to put their values first or not be bothered when those values are violated. people often are bothered by certain behaviors simply because of their default cognitive functions - that is, these sensitivities are cognitively determined. so whether a behavior bothers someone or not is not something they can switch on and off. all an individual can really control is how he/she acts when something bothers them, or build a shell that hides how they really feel inside. it is therefore unreasonable to expect anyone to be able to just flip off some cognitively-determined offense switch that is flipped on by our behavior...or to call them "too sensitive" because they cannot do so. no one should be expected to change how their brain works in order to please us! lol this is where tolerance of personality differences (that are perceived as annoying) comes into the picture.

everyone wants to be treated well, but how do they define "well"? that is the question. more people are considerate than are given credit for being so, if we know how to read people correctly. this is one reason i love personality theory so much - it helps to understand more how each personality type thinks and would like to be treated, and how to interact with them more harmoniously.

 

[pretyhowtown]

It just depends. To an Fi user, as others have said, Fe can seem fake. It can also seem a little bit pushy, if that makes sense. Fi can certainly appear rather self-centered, since the tendency is to be so aware of one's own emotions that it can be difficult to move forward or be involved with anyone else u til feelings are sorted.

 

[Satan Claus]

Fi users put themselves first, in a healthy way, before other people and consider how they feel about things more than others. IF something doesn't feel right with them they won't do it. Fi/Te is making decisions according to their own feelings and morals without any room for negotiation.