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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It seems like Ni would be more about generating ideas than Ti. Ti is just like analysis or breakdown of ideas. Yet I often feel like Ti is giving me a constant stream of insights.
 

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INTPs are far more creative in their thinking, but INTJs are more creative in every other aspect of their lives... and their creativity is more noticeable to others because of their high Te. So, I think it's safe to say that INTJs have a more creative lifestyle than INTPs.
 

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It seems like Ni would be more about generating ideas than Ti. Ti is just like analysis or breakdown of ideas. Yet I often feel like Ti is giving me a constant stream of insights.
Maybe you're better at Ni than MBTI would like you to think? It's just another variable of personality.. Typically introverts are overshadowed by their extroverted peers anyway.
 

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In the "proper" sense of the term INTJ's, because their Ni is dominant and is of the purer, arguably more powerful (introverted form). It comes up with ideas seemingly out of nowhere, the principles behind which whole worldviews are based. Many people do not see this, because Te is extraverted, but it is in fact true. But Ni does limit itself more to ideas it thinks are feasible.

In the "popular" sense of the term, INTP's, because Ne is what many S-types consider "creative" in that it is whimsical and wacky and outside the box. Because it is extraverted, it is slightly more likely to have an artistic incarnation (often conflated with creativity in the popular imagination - look at the "exrtremely creative" INFP; they are actually feeling dominant), and will be seen by more people. And Jung said something about Ti and Fi having "original ideas" but I don't know what he meant by that. Maybe our judgments are so "pure" and exact/genuine they are also by extension unique?

In terms of creative output however, that depends entirely on the person. Individual S's might be more creative than a lot of N's by that definition. All depends. Still, anyone who prefers intuition is going to be creative (or at least imaginative) to the point of it being a strength. But I'd have to think ENP's and INJ's would be more so, or would have to work at it less.

If I am wrong anywhere please point it out and I will be happy to concede if it is well argued; creativity is prized in many people above all else (including myself, I have to admit) and no one is going to want to think they are "less creative" than somebody else. It goes without saying this is a touchy subject.
 

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Ti is just like analysis or breakdown of ideas.
Yep. And I think I analyze and break ideas down in a very creative way thank you very much.

Seriously though, I don't think that type really has much to do with creativity. It just shows you how any creativity a person has will be applied. Just because Ti is logical doesn't mean that it isn't creative.
 

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Yep. And I think I analyze and break ideas down in a very creative way thank you very much.

Seriously though, I don't think that type really has much to do with creativity. It just shows you how any creativity a person has will be applied. Just because Ti is logical doesn't mean that it isn't creative.
I don't see logic as creative, nor do I see values and feeling-based judgments as deserving of that label. They are just approvers. In the case of Ti and Fi, definers. Judging functions. You might think your Ti is creative, but I'd be inclined to suspect you are confusing it with the creative ideas Ne is giving you. Ne gives us the strategies we use to refine and break down ideas. But we also synthesize existing ideas to make new ones using Ne. Ti just tells us whether or not they are useful.

Creative does not mean "resourceful", although people are trying to redefine it for fear of not being seen as creative. It does not just mean "doing something productive" etiher. It means creating - not breaking apart. The strategy you use to break ideas down may be creative, but that, as I said, would come from Ne would it not? We do use Ne a lot, if not as much as Ti and often for the sake of Ti, just as INTJ's use Te a lot. I have been referred to as a very creative person by others - quite frequently in fact. And I am one. But it is not my Ti they are talking about.

I reiterate; as far as I am concerned creativity is the creation of something new, not breaking something apart or clarifying what it is (we do a TON of the latter). In other words, not Ti. Ti clarifies, defines, gets at the essence of what something is, checks to see if our web of ideas is coherent and consistent with absolute logic. Creativity is synthesis...divergent thought...it is what our Ne does for us. It is not analysis. Now, there is nothing wrong with analysis; it's just a different thinking style. We spend most of our time worrying about whether or not the ideas our Ne comes up with are logical. Big deal. There are strengths associated with that, whether you want to call them creative strengths or not. This careful deliberation gives a well developed INTP a sense of wisdom most other types find hard to attain...

But we may have very different definitions of the word "creative". Our society's fetishization of creativity means that everyone wants a piece of the pie, which means changing the definition of the word so it means nothing. That's my take on it at least. My Ti just wishes people would be more precise...
 

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The error is defining 'more creative' when infact the creativity is different.

The typical cognitive process for an INTJ (Ni-Te) is to fixate on something generated by internal perception/internal imagination then think about it outside their heads (beware INTJs and whiteboards).

For INTPs they know what they are aiming to do and how it is logically constructed (Ti) then set about pulling in external ideas (Ne) through research to help them solve what is their main thought process.
 

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The error is defining 'more creative' when infact the creativity is different.

The typical cognitive process for an INTJ (Ni-Te) is to fixate on something generated by internal perception/internal imagination then think about it outside their heads (beware INTJs and whiteboards).

For INTPs they know what they are aiming to do and how it is logically constructed (Ti) then set about pulling in external ideas (Ne) through research to help them solve what is their main thought process.
Yes, although the ideas are not arrived at through research. Anyone of any type can do that. It's a bit like plucking them from a stream...they sort of "come at you" in random spurts (more like gunfire for ENP's it seems), based loosely on what sort of pattern it is seeing in the environment. They are often random and discombobulated and the Ti must sift them out according to quality and find a way of fitting them into its general vision, which is in and of itself a very loose abstraction derrived from Ne. That is why the INTP is often called the "architect". The creativity still comes from the Ne, but the Ti is what "makes it good". It culls the more embarassing ADD moments the Ne very frequently has and incorporates only the best as it sees fit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Well okay here is my next question. Since I feel my internal world is much richer and deeper than the external world I see, wouldn't Ni have 100000000000 million times more material work with? Verse Ne which only has to work the externals?
 

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Well okay here is my next question. Since I feel my internal world is much richer and deeper than the external world I see, wouldn't Ni have 100000000000 million times more material work with? Verse Ne which only has to work the externals?
Well, Ne is designed to imaginatively shape "the external world" (being an-N function that is an imprecise definition, but you get what I'm saying), but we still come up with "externals" in our minds creatively. We don't literally get them from the external world (if you are an Ne user you can relate to "plucking an idea from a flowing stream of ideas"). And there is a great deal of crossover. I think "100000000000 million times" is a bit of an exaggeration. Obviously you were using hyperbole there, but I sense some despair here; please - don't. Is Te "100000000000 million times less logical"? Not at all. Aristotle was the father of logic, and he was an INTJ. Like Ne, it is not as pure or powerful, but then again it uses impersonal reasoning in a different way and has unique powers Ti does not. Ti doesn't do too well with organzing the external world; Te does. Ne may not be as deep or powerful, but it also has its own unique powers and is by no means less prolific. The only reason it is in INTP's is that it is our second function, not our first. We spend more time "thinking", less time "intuiting". It does not usually take up less of our mind because it is extraverted. But it is still our primary percieving funtion, and our perception is, first and foremost imaginative, not concrete/literal. And it is the same perception our Ti uses to make judgments.

And similarly to Te's unique organizational powers, Ne has (NJ's please correct me if I am wrong...I saw the INF types reach this conclusion on another thread and I will retract my statements if they turn out to be false...there are few things worse to me than vain self-praise when it is not deserved) the capacity to imagine things in richer visual detail. It has to - it is built to engage the external world! A wonderful plus there is a fantastic visual imagination (the popular definition of "imagination", as I said in another post). I am very grateful for my "artistic" imagination...every time I despair about my inabillity to draw and open my mouth to describe what it is I want to, even ISFP's are amazed. They tend to draw things they have literally seen, but I can create fantastic worlds no one has ever seen in the blink of an eye. You may have that same gift. Embrace it!
 

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I don't see logic as creative, nor do I see values and feeling-based judgments as deserving of that label. They are just approvers. In the case of Ti and Fi, definers. Judging functions. You might think your Ti is creative, but I'd be inclined to suspect you are confusing it with the creative ideas Ne is giving you. Ne gives us the strategies we use to refine and break down ideas. But we also synthesize existing ideas to make new ones using Ne. Ti just tells us whether or not they are useful.
Two things:

1. I suspect you're mistaking Ti's instinctual nature with Ne.

2. Judging functions can be creative. Even if I grant you that Ti only serves to tell if something is useful, that still leaves a wide range of possibilities. First and foremost, what purpose are you trying to achieve? Something can't be useful with no goal.

I think the disconnect is when you say that you don't feel that logic is creative, but I don't think that's true. Tell me that Einstein's theory of relativity or Goedel's incompleteness theorem aren't creative uses of logic. Is there some form of intuition involved? Sure. But that doesn't detract from the creativity of thinking.

Like I said, I don't think that type is related to creativity. It shows how creativity is applied.
 

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neither.



Ne and Ni are both pretty damn creative. I think since INTP's have extroverted intuition their creativity may easier to see. But that's not for certain.

I think of it like this personally....
Picture a bunch of boxes connected by strings. each box represents stimuli. Where Ne goes and connects the boxes together, Ni takes one of those boxes and dissects all of the possibilities of that one idea. Ne connects the idea to another idea and possible ways of connecting ideas.

Could be wrong though.

That being said. How could you say either is more creative? They are just creative in different arenas.



I have noticed.... get ready for some not very empirical shit.....

I have noticed that Ne ..... when used in the context of music..... tends to not have many..... endings ... at least in the musical phrases. The phrase's ending will be somewhat unclear...... like it constantly flows without needing a definite ending.

I have noticed that Ni Te or Ni Fe users tend to have definite endings in their phrases..... but between each phrase are much more complicated ..... ness.


To show an example....... let's take two rappers.


Devlin- INTJ
Orifice Vulgatron- ENTP


Notice the difference in their delivery. Notice how devlin uses much more definite endings than orifice.

This is orifice vulgatron. He is an ENTP.

check out 0: 27

check out 1: 37


Now devlin




Now I realize we are comparing INTP's and INTJ's but.... hey. I don't know many INTP examples. ENTP's will have to do since they have the same functions but use Ne as their first function
 
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At the risk of sounding simplistic, but isn't creativity associated with the ability to create "new" things? Starting with flashes of insight and then moving on to rumination or application.
 

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At the risk of sounding simplistic, but isn't creativity associated with the ability to create "new" things?
Yes. But what are the new things you create? You can create new logical rules (T). You can create new sensations (S). You can create new relationships (F). You can create new ways to interpret sensations (N). N probably strikes people as most creative simply because it isn't as common.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Yes. But what are the new things you create? You can create new logical rules (T). You can create new sensations (S). You can create new relationships (F). You can create new ways to interpret sensations (N). N probably strikes people as most creative simply because it isn't as common.
Very Nice.
 

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Two things:

1. I suspect you're mistaking Ti's instinctual nature with Ne.

2. Judging functions can be creative. Even if I grant you that Ti only serves to tell if something is useful, that still leaves a wide range of possibilities. First and foremost, what purpose are you trying to achieve? Something can't be useful with no goal.

I think the disconnect is when you say that you don't feel that logic is creative, but I don't think that's true. Tell me that Einstein's theory of relativity or Goedel's incompleteness theorem aren't creative uses of logic. Is there some form of intuition involved? Sure. But that doesn't detract from the creativity of thinking.

Like I said, I don't think that type is related to creativity. It shows how creativity is applied.
Logical systems are by definition creative, but Ne was still what designed the system...it just waited for the Ti to "clear" its ideas for logical rules most of the time. Like I said, an INTP is not just Ti, and you probably use Ne more often than you think. We still do everything uniquely and originally, because most of the data the Ti is getting (and the data that fits best with it) is imaginative data, data gathered and created by Ne.

I should add that the creativity of INTP's is indeed of a different type and has its own advantages. I was (up till now) not making as many points for the "INTP side" (but I do not want this to turn into a contest; I want it to be a dispassionate comparison) because I am biased and do not want to paint an overly flattering portrait of my type. I am interested to see what people think of my "visual imagination" hypothesis and see whether or not my observations are accurate. I do not want to argue something that makes me look like I am trying to do anything but arrive at the truth/keep the peace; it discredits me as a person of reason.

The INTP has "less imagination" than an INTJ (that is what I meant by creativity), but what he or she creates is richer and often more thorough/of greater quality. Depending on your worldview, it may not matter and this tradeoff may be worth it. Like the INTJ has a giant sack of silver, the INTP a ring of gold and diamonds. The INTJ sacrifices accuracy and profundity but gains breadth and vision, vice versa for the INTP. Of course, you cannot compare the quality of these two very different types of work in a strict sense, but the INTP comes closer to what may be termed perfection...in our case, that ideal is usually logical consistency. I reiterate; the INTJ has a grand vision with less "depth", a bit like Lake Erie, whereas the INTP's vision is smaller, but much deeper, like Lake Baikal. INTJ's are seers (greater powers of foresight), INTP's sages (deeper powers of thought, often greater wisdom). As you can see, there is a lot to be said for the way we think. But INTJ's are still very logical (they are T's!) and INTP's are still very creative (we are N's!).

Thanks for the comparisons of rap videos, the higher.:happy: Connecting things that already exist seemed less "imaginative" to me, but in the strict sense of putting something there where there was nothing before it is creative...it just doesn't quite get to the "purest essence" of N. I don't really care; Ne discombobulates and remixes so much you'd be hardpressed to call what it comes up with anything but unique...it is more random than Ni is at least. I love my Ne and even my Ti for that matter; I just think stretching the defintion of creativity too far belittles creativity and that is what has been happening since it began entering retail manuals ("find creative ways of loading carts onto the truck"!) The word lost a lot of its magic; by changing the definition to make more people and mindsets fit under the umbrella you make creativity less alluring - which begs the question: why would you change the definition in the first place? Less reason for you to want on board now.

But these are artistic examples you're giving here; Ni may not be a disadvantage in the arts, but it is not an advantage. Ne and Ni are on equal playing ground here, and to be honest, I think Ne can sometimes take the cake. There are probably tons of Ni users who are also artists, but Ne just seems like a more obvious match for the arts. Not dismissing INTJ artists, of course. I love the angst of INTJ composers, for instance. But using imagination (N) to adapt the physcial world (E) just screams artistic.
 

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Yes. But what are the new things you create? You can create new logical rules (T). You can create new sensations (S). You can create new relationships (F). You can create new ways to interpret sensations (N). N probably strikes people as most creative simply because it isn't as common.
N certainly strikes people as more amazing because it is less common. I will definately give you that. But do you really "come up" with logical rules? Seems to me logic is something you just use...but then again I've never studied formal logic in great depth. While Ti is instinctive, I do not confuse it with intuition. I am very aware of both mental processes in my mind. Ti certainly helps creativity along, but I think it guides the Ne more than anything else, telling it which ideas are good and which are bad, allowing the Ne to narrow its range to good ideas and come up with the best ideas of all. Please tell me if it does not and acts on its own; I really want to believe you.:happy: But I have trouble seeing it.

PS. It may seem odd that I am "arguing against my own type here". I dunno...I don't want to be pretentious and call Ti something it may not be. As far I can see, I still think that the obvious definition of creativity is similar to iNtuition. P-functions are idea generators, and of the two the N function generates ideas that least resemble things that already existed. Logic is a skill, a power, a very impressive power that seeks to do something very important. Ti is a very complex, powerful function. I just don't see it, by itself, as creative. And I don't care; it has Ne to fill that role, to give me a constant stream of imaginative possibilities, and with Ti in charge the smaller (for an N) number of ideas my Ne comes up with are very good ones indeed.

I am a creative person. And I like it that way. I just don't get how judgment is imagination.
 

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I don't know if INTJ's are more creative than INTPs. It just seems like they act on their creativity more (the need to produce).

I doubt this is indicitive of other INTPs, but I know I have a plethoa of ideas; I just never act on them. Why? Well, because I'm too lazy to act on ideas that aren't that great. I know I'm looking and waiting for that one idea that will consume me and will become my passion. I've started novels, music blogs, studied photography, been in a few bands, etc. Still searching for something worthwhile to spend my energy on.

My INTJ friend is currently creating a graphic novel; he's already got the storyline planned, the characters drawn out, and is in the process of drawing now. I've proofread his drafts, and it's amazing stuff. I may talk to him about starting some sort of creative collaborative endeavor.
 

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It seems like Ni would be more about generating ideas than Ti. Ti is just like analysis or breakdown of ideas. Yet I often feel like Ti is giving me a constant stream of insights.
You're forgetting that INTP's have Ne as a secondary function which does lead to great creativity. Ne and Ni are both creative functions, just in different ways.
Therefore, I would say that all of the INXX types are highly creative. I wouldn't say either one is more creative than the others. They are all creative in different ways.
 
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