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Discussion Starter #1
I have some "euphoric" days, crappy days and moderated days, like everyone else.

But after observing the behavior and self-opinion that other NTs show in this forum, it's obvious (at least for me) that INTPs have statistically the lowest self-steem of all of them (damn...).

I was wondering why this happens. Is this a direct consequence of functions and its order? Is this a collateral effect (I mean, not an obligated consequence, but usual because of circumstances)? Any other option I've not considered yet?

I want to distinguish between apparent self-steem, projected to others, and real self-steem (personal subjective valoration about oneself). In the first case, I'll put ENTPs at top. In the second case, I doubt between INTJs or ENTJs, but I'll take side with INTJs.

We can consider self-steem as a consecuence of the realization of the ego. The more objectives (whatever they were) it could reach, the more boosted it becomes ->higher self-steem.

Functions and their goals

The exact goal of every function depends on their exact definitions, so this could be a bit subjective. Here I go:

-Ti. Gaining knowledge.
-Te. Applying knowledge.
-Ni. Generating internal possibilities (points of views, meanings, etc).
-Ne. Generating external possibilities (expanding reality from what it is to what it could be).
-Fi. Integrating the inner self.
-Fe. Integrating the self with others.
-Si. Integrating present with past.
-Se. Interacting with the inmediate, present, world.

I think extroverted functions can satisfy their goals more easily than introverted functions. This is not always correct, but statistically true. Introverted functions can generate concrete goals more difficult for achieving (they're not pragmatic), they can be more "all or nothing". It's true that introverted functions do not need external validation, but this does not imply that the validation favors the user. Ti has its internal algorithm, but this does not necessarily make the "Ti calculus" positive.

So in general, E>I: ENTP>INTP, ENTJ>INTJ (I'll later change this order).

For deciding between J and P, I'll use the core functions:

Ti Vs Te
All extroverted function is a bidirectional process. It's fed by the world (specially when aux), and it projects its nature to the world (specially when dom).

Te gains knowledge by external world pragmatical rules: consensus and experimentation. This half-part of its nature is easly satisfied.
Te pojects its knowledge to the world, modifying it. This part is harder for being satisfied, but still as pragmatical its goals would not be extremely difficult. And the more goals you achieved, the more difficult goals you think you can achieve. Experience strengthens self-confidence.

Ti gains knowledge by internal world non pragmatical rules. The problem here is that the goal of Ti is not "applicable knowledge" but "absolute knowledge, the truth". Consequences of this? The user soon learns that the only way for obtaining the closest to real knowledge is being objective. But if your're objective you're "outside your own point of view". This implies that the knowledge (the truth) is never seen as a property. As the tuth is not a property of the user, like a picture in a museum that you can see but it's not yours, the satisfaction per goal is not as higher as in Te (I do it!). Not owning the truth introduces also a degree of uncertainty (you can't never be completely sure). This, combined with the fact that the more you know, the more conscious you become about what you do not know, makes Ti goals really difficult for being satisfied. So Ti < Te (in my opinion).

This "truth is not a property" makes INTPs, IMHO, the less arrogant of all NTs. We can be really stubborn, because Ti uses "internal rules" but never truly arrogant because we could think "I'm closer to the truth" but never "I own the truth".

Ni Vs Ne
Ni is an idea generator. Being internally oriented, none of them requires validation (they're simply true). But these ideas are not necessarily positive (comparing how different INTJ and INFJ cosmovisions are).

Ne, by the other hand, requires external validation; its connection with the world makes it easily satisfiable. But I see Ne as a source of happiness more than a source of self-steem, because it's not so "directly connected" with the ego. I mean, I see a Te user like this "I will modify the world using its rules and my free will", and a Ne user like this "I will use the potential that the world could offer to me". Te is more "from the user to the world" and Ne more "from the world to the user". I recognize that my vision about Ne is biased by the fact that I'm INTP, maybe ENTPs could disagree with this and describe it as strong as Te about this.

So I will declare a "draw" between these two functions. Ne has extra points for being extroverted, but not as strong as Te. Ni has extra points by its unique ability of seeing the positive in the negative (change the meaning of a fact, instead the fact itself) which could overrun the generation of negative ideas (negative at first).

TiNe Vs NiTe
Considering the two cores, I think NiTe win by far. Ni offers all points of view and long-term planification that Te needs for achieving its goals of world modification. Te allows Ni to recover from negative ideas, because being T and not F, the user will not fall in a negative emotional state. Strictly, Te does not help too much to Ni, it only does not disturb it as Fe could do, allowing it to solve its problems.

Ne is a source of useful information to Ti. When Ti does not know how to resolve a problem, the extra amount of information could make possible the "calculus", but the amount of information could be too big sometimes. And some extra info could not match with the original, forcing to Ti to "change the algorithm..." I see this like a love-hate relationship :laughing:

With all of this, NTJ>NTP; ENTP>INTP (extroversion). Some ENTJs could have a really big self-steem, but I think that the INTJ self-steem is bigger but no so apparent. Why?

Loops
This thread describes them perfectly, so I will only use the info:

http://personalitycafe.com/articles/25205-dominant-tertiary-loops-common-personality-disorders.html

ENTP: NeFe. With this combination, ENTPs could seem to be really egottish, but in fact it's more narcissism than real self-steem.

ENTJ: TeSe. Probably the most displeasant from the point of view of a third person. The same, more apparent than a real source of self-steem.

INTP. TiSi. The worst loop for self-steem. Because when we have a problem and we are in some of these, we are unable to solve it. And we are unable of re-interpret the problem (we lack Ni). Si does not want changes neither new things. At the same time, it sees present as an inmediate consequence of the past. Si is the most vulnerable function to past experiences, making INTPs the most vulnerable users to their particular conditions. Maybe golden spoon INTPs could have a really strong self-steem, but this good luck is not frequent. Our tert Si, combined with being introverted and outliers, make us prone to suffer a lot because our conditions. Our inf Fe wants a connection with others that we rarely find. ENTPs could use it for manipulating others, but it's too weak in us for this advanced usage.

INTJ. NiFi. The hidden ego booster! Fi does not require external validation, as Ni. Ni feeds Fi, Fi agrees with Ni... all the user think and feel is seen as true. When a internal judging function, whose objectives are emotional and intrapersonal, resonates with Ni, the Tacoma Narrows bridge could break down!
This loop is the reason for choosing INTJ as higher self-steem users than ENTJs. It's less apparent, but it's here.

Conclusion
The final order would be INTJs>ENTJs>ENTPs>INTPs.

Opinions?
 

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I think I could best anyone at anything given adequate time to prepare.

But there was a time in my life where I had some significant lows that I needed to pull myself out of. By comparison anything day to day seems simple and doesn't bother me.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I think I could best anyone at anything given adequate time to prepare.

But there was a time in my life where I had some significant lows that I needed to pull myself out of. By comparison anything day to day seems simple and doesn't bother me.
An objective analysis makes to me thinking the same. But one thing is the "emotionless idea" and other thing is the "feeling". Sometimes when I have a concrete problem, I know I can overrun it, but at the same time I feel unable to do this. A sort of internal conflict...

Are you immune to "lows" now? I'm interested if you simply solved a concrete problem of a concrete epoch of you life, or you've developed a sort of "mental tool" for avoiding these bad mental states.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Well I don't know, I have a lot of self esteem but so do my two INTP friends.
You must distinguish between apparent self-steem and real self-steem. Feeling right with oneself (being happy) is not the same that having a real high self-steem. This phenomenon is not so obvious, specially speaking about others (your friends).

For example, the average INTJ is probably more serious than the average INTP, making him/her seeming to be less happy. But the average INTJ think/feels that could do more things; the self image represents a more capable being.
 

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I don't know if it's low self-esteem; I'd posit that it's more likely existential depression, brought on from our objective view on the world (and knowing that in the grand scheme of things, we don't matter), and being too lazy to actually see anything through to fruition.

But I could be projecting.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I don't know if it's low self-esteem; I'd posit that it's more likely existential depression, brought on from our objective view on the world (and knowing that in the grand scheme of things, we don't matter), and being too lazy to actually see anything through to fruition.

But I could be projecting.
This would be low self-steem, or at least, the typical INTP thoughts that made us non cable of "autoinflating" our ego.

INTP thoughts are like Lithium, the best against euphoria :crazy:
 

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I think this would depend on a person's definition of self-esteem. I personally think that I have more self-esteem than most people. For example, I think men that use Axe Body Spray or need to sleep with as many people as possible have low self-esteem. I think women who cannot go longer than two days without a boyfriend have low self-esteem. Stealing from friends or sleeping with my friends wives is beneath me, so I would not do those acts. I also doubt you put value in any of these things MSM. Are any of my definitions of low self-esteem INTP traits? I do not judge myself through other people's eyes. That is there problem not mine.

To quote Metallica :laughing:
You labeled me
I'll label you
 

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The "e" key isn't broken on your keyboard, so is there any particular reason why you keep using "self-steem"?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
The "e" key isn't broken on your keyboard, so is there any particular reason why you keep using "self-steem"?
Before acting as a grammar nazi, it could be a good idea taking a look at what's the country of origin of a concrete user. Not all people who write here are native english speakers.

So thanks for the info, but try not to share it in a moronic style. Didn't you understand me, maybe?
 

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As a general rule, most NT's have one problem or another. As an INTJ, I have terrible existential and psychological problems to deal with daily, though I sometimes take pride in my solitude :laughing:, so my self-esteem can't really be said as really that great either. It really depends what you define self-esteem as.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I think this would depend on a person's definition of self-esteem. I personally think that I have more self-esteem than most people. For example, I think men that use Axe Body Spray or need to sleep with as many people as possible have low self-esteem. I think women who cannot go longer than two days without a boyfriend have low self-esteem. Stealing from friends or sleeping with my friends wives is beneath me, so I would not do those acts. I also doubt you put value in any of these things MSM. Are any of my definitions of low self-esteem INTP traits? I do not judge myself through other people's eyes. That is there problem not mine.

To quote Metallica :laughing:
You labeled me
I'll label you
Good points :happy:

Obviously, I put zero values in the things you've mentioned. I do not jugdge myself through other people's eyes, neither.

As you said, self-esteem depends on what properties a concrete user consider as "good". It's a subjective concept.

But it always works in the same way: if I have those properties I see as good, I value myself as good. This simple rule works for me, you and that people you've mentioned. Self-esteem could be "measured" by the feeling of self satisfacton:

X properties are good -> if I have X I'm good (subjective valoration, self-esteem) -> If I'm good, I feel good with myself.

So I think every cognitive function has its "subjective opinion" about what's good, which could be associated to its goals. If you could achive your goals, you "interiorize" the good properties in a sense of success (self-esteem).
 

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Discussion Starter #14
As a general rule, most NT's have one problem or another. As an INTJ, I have terrible existential and psychological problems to deal with daily, though I sometimes take pride in my solitude :laughing:, so my self-esteem can't really be said as really that great either. It really depends what you define self-esteem as.
Obviously there are particular cases in every type. I tried to deduce "general rules", but every person is every person. Maybe I've overestimated the self-esteem of INTJs, but my opinion was forged in the average user I've know, here and in real life.

Despite of this, do you agree with the way I've deduced the self-esteem of NTs?
 

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I'd suggest as far as quantity goes Ne produces more idea, while Ni tries to make order out of the ideas it and Ne presents. Trying to figure out how it all works together and what not. Some validation is necessary, as the theories produced need to be proven or dis proven (a lot of the time it's done in your head without consulting anyone) Say Ni has "Will it work?" while Ne has "Let's try this!"

For the record, narcissism is a manifestation of low-self esteem.. INTPs may appear frivolous or depressed, but that's probably because they often lack direction. Even so, they're quite capable of arrogance. INTJs have this loner-narcissism as an image for some reason. (I'd extend this to some INTPs too)
 

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You must distinguish between apparent self-steem and real self-steem.
I definitely agree with this part, apparent and actual self-esteem are two very different things. I try to moderate my ego and, depending on who I'm with, that can either look like I'm arrogant or lack confidence. It isn't entirely intentional but, from looking at it in hindsight, I seem to express the opposite about myself that the person I'm with tends to. Give me too many compliments and you're likely to hear my more self-deprecating side and vice-versa.
 
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As a general rule, most NT's have one problem or another. As an INTJ, I have terrible existential and psychological problems to deal with daily, though I sometimes take pride in my solitude :laughing:, so my self-esteem can't really be said as really that great either. It really depends what you define self-esteem as.
Ohh man, when I was like 5 I used to think about what it would be like not to exist. It used to scare the shit out of my parents asking about it all the time, what it was like before I was born. I would just sit there and think about non-existence and how its completely impossible to conceive, obviously I didn't have the words to express it but the confusion --not yet dread-- was definitely there at an early age. I became scared shitless of death by like 10 and ultimately the only comfort I found from anyone was, "You're still young."

Nowadays I drink. That seems to help.
 

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Am I alone on this board in that if I spot a small error in an older post like typing "your" instead of "you're" I have to correct it, but then I get self conscious about the fact that it now says my post has been edited??
 

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Am I alone on this board in that if I spot a small error in an older post like typing "your" instead of "you're" I have to correct it, but then I get self conscious about the fact that it now says my post has been edited??
I got used to the edit appearing on my posts in PerC pretty quick. Sometimes my brain works faster than my hands or eyes and I see that in many NT responses in these forums. From college I realized that my poor grades were often just in my proofreading so I proofread every post three times. Then I see something overlooked and usually have to edit. I also give large responses because I have been conditioned for 1000 word essays on subjects that I could cover with a good sentence.

In short I think editing is a conditioned academic response :laughing:
 
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