Non estps smart
Non estps smart
Your last sentence (which is also a generalization-- not sure why you think that is okay for you but not for me?) is a bit closer to what I was saying, the concept I expressed was actually constructive, I hope, although made slightly cryptic so that those who wanted to understand would be the only ones to listen to it. I was pointing out that if you don't understand the desires of values of the person that you are trying to help, then you likely aren't helping and I added some examples to show what I see and think-- a few were a bit snarky, but honestly what I see. I didn't ever say that I didn't generalize and I don't think it's wrong (do you?) to generalize as long as it is implied that this is a personal opinion based on a pattern of what I've observed and that there can be more incoming information and also exceptions. (ESTPs being fellow perceivers would likely think so too, so I didn't make too much of an effort to explain the perceiver view on that). I think you might not realize that seeing the big picture with Ne and what you call generalizing is probably the same thing from your standpoint, but that (ask Jung) Ne is expert at seeing big patterns. I didn't say that the OP's post proves anything. I said her post strengthened my opinion. My opinion being that ESTPs often don't realize that other people don't want or need their help to pursue their own aims. If she is having to bash our heads in with her point that she is actually helping.... well that's not helping, is it? Instead it's bashing people's head in. There was a reason she felt like she needed to make the thread. I don't even see this as "proving a point" either way. I just wanted to put my observation in that often ESTPs don't realize other people don't have their same aims or values. If/when ESTPs realize other people are different and want to help that person's situation with that person's individual goals, then I really think ESTPs could be very effective if that is their aim. I see nothing wrong with this concept that I'm bringing up and I don't feel like you've said anything to refute the concept that I made. I do not think I've back-slid on the concept I actually discussed... although granted it was quite a long time ago and I'm always open to new information and to meeting ESTPs whom I think are effective helpers. So I'm always open to new information that might alter my opinion and I give this grace to everyone. So far nothing we've said has given me new information. If you showed me several examples of ESTPs asking everyone what their life goals are and listened before they made any moves concerning others and if you showed me that this was at least 60% of 8 out of 10 ESTP interactions with others then I would feel like I had new evidence to make new patterns and generalizations from. New information is what would change my current opinion. However, my concept to begin with seems sound to me. How can you help someone if you don't understand what actually would make them happy, whole or well? However, at this time I see ESTP's desire to help sometimes endearing and sometimes amusing and sometimes obnoxious, yes, and heaven help those who cross them.This is what you wrote.
"I'm remembering watching a very obnoxious 22 year old ESTP try to win my nerdy friend's affection because they had been to a 2 month long training together and I think any time you guys have respect and like for someone (someone gets under your skin) you do try to tease them into liking you and pour on some ESTP charm to win them over and/or "innocently" terrorize them if you are bored. It was endearing watching him, kind of his saving grace it seemed to me."
1. You did generalise in the second half of the first sentence.
2. You generalised about the charm in that part.
3. Your generalisation about the type of charm did imply it has an obnoxious quality (even though you indicated later that it is not just that).
4. You said OP's post proves your generalisations on ESTPs.
So I was refuting this point of yours. I definitely addressed it. And OP was also aiming to do the same. So yeah it was rather funny that you went past OP's point with your post.
And you started your first post to me that you agree, correct, the OP didn't prove what you said. So... what are we talking about?
If this is too much Si for you at this point, feel free to stop loool.
Just don't expect me to go with the slippery goalpost shifting though
Something else: yeah ESTPs can try to help others in a too forceful or crude way, okay, but that's a different point, unrelated to the above. I would say that one has validity.
I'm glad I made you laugh. It's good to know that you guys need the blood pressure meds too.@Llyralen
lool the part about ISTJ-ENFP taking until we both are really old to understand each other... I'd also need the blood pressure medication, to be honest. : PP
Feel free to start that thread, if nothing else, it'll be good to get frustrations out (like some boxing game). :laughing:
You made me laugh, anyhow.
As for the original topic: like I said I won't go with slippery goalpost shifting. I get it that you had another point too in the original post I got at originally and this other point you did flesh out here. I happen to have analysed that issue earlier - you can call it me checking out some Ne - about it making a difference how much you understand someone's goals and values. So what you said there, you fleshing it out, makes sense. (Yes wait, yeah, the Si got your Ne, right? lol...)
However, I pointed out something about the second part of your original post, not the part you focused on in your subsequent posts. (That's why it came off as shifting the goalpost. I'm not saying it has to be intentional.) Let's say, I get what you mean by the OP proving the first point now that you fleshed that one out - however, OP was definitely not proving the second point of yours, and it was quite ironic that you posted as if ignoring a big point of OP, which is what I focused on. I do not want to repeat myself though like in the previous post of mine and I do not have the Ne to care to try and find an alternative way to explain.
If you do have interest in understanding my point there, then feel free to try this out for the new ISTJ/ENFP thread - feel free to start the thread with it then. I would be glad to try and explain in whatever way I can (try to find the Ne then). But I personally don't have interest in reviewing it otherwise. You want to get my point or you don't want to try and get it, it's about as simple as that.
That aside. The example you gave about Si doms. I'd go mad, true. heh. I do not want to switch over to thinking about life goals every time a concrete problem comes up. You know, the idea on how ESTPs would need to realise how others may have a different aim... it applies here too even though you are an ENFP and not ESTP. Like, yeah, understand that the Si dom has a different aim, not reevaluating life goals, because maybe the Si dom has his/her own opinion about what his/her life goals are, and has his/her own idea on the course as to how they will get there. So maybe that cog does matter for that course. Or it just matters for life quality in terms of the context of what's desired/dreamed of. I do have awareness of life goals and dreams for myself. For sure, I do not analyse other people's dreams though.
No, thanks. I was just thinking, if you were on there maybe I could be persuaded. Discord is too fast paced for me to keep up with. I don't like being glued to the computer like that. Or, if I am, I like it to be by choice.I have not been on there in forever. I can PM you a few if you would like.
I will let you know when I get on and which server. : )No, thanks. I was just thinking, if you were on there maybe I could be persuaded. Discord is too fast paced for me to keep up with. I don't like being glued to the computer like that. Or, if I am, I like it to be by choice.