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Soop for the Soul
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Discussion Starter #1
My theory is that T(x) and N(x) are pure opposites because of how they work.

I'll explain using the example of Ti vs Ni:

Ti uses internal logic to come to a conclusion whereas Ni comes to a conclusion based on a hunch. One common theory is that this hunch is based on observations and internal logic based on those observations and this is done subconsciously to produce a conscious conclusion or hunch.

So basically Ti is conscious logic, unconscious conclusion, where Ni is unconscious logic, conscious conclusion. The limitation of Ni is that you can't be critical about the bias expressed in your internal logic process and the limitation of Ti is paralysis by analysis and possible obscuring of the big picture when a conclusion is arrived at.

I know I've probably used some words incorrectly in an attempt to express my idea so if you think you know what I'm saying, feel free to write it in your words to confirm that we understand each other.

I wonder if this is the case for F(x) and S(x) too, but I have yet to examine it so I won't argue for it.

The implications of this is that if it is true, F and T and S and N are not opposites and this could be where MBTI separates from cognitive functions when it comes to typing.
 

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Nope. T and F creates structures, N and S does not. Ni doesn't have logic and it does not come to well defined conclusions, it just takes in information and by taking in the information constantly creates a picture. A picture is not a structure, it can change fluidly. In order for you to adjust your T or F content you have to take a hammer to it and destroy and rebuild parts of it. They are well defined and have clear borders.

I think your confusion comes from seeing N as an intellectual product whereas in reality it is not. Intuition is irrationality in its intangible form, nothing more nothing less. All animals need it to survive but ultimately it is not more important or less important than sensation. It just has to do with the other half of reality.
 

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Ti uses internal logic to come to a conclusion whereas Ni comes to a conclusion based on a hunch. One common theory is that this hunch is based on observations and internal logic based on those observations and this is done subconsciously to produce a conscious conclusion or hunch.

So basically Ti is conscious logic, unconscious conclusion, where Ni is unconscious logic, conscious conclusion. The limitation of Ni is that you can't be critical about the bias expressed in your internal logic process and the limitation of Ti is paralysis by analysis and possible obscuring of the big picture when a conclusion is arrived at.

I wonder if this is the case for F(x) and S(x) too, but I have yet to examine it so I won't argue for it.

The implications of this is that if it is true, F and T and S and N are not opposites and this could be where MBTI separates from cognitive functions when it comes to typing.
I think you're nailing it pretty well to a certain extent. Neurologically, they're physically opposite (Ti showing activity in front-left, Ni being rear-right), heheheh...
But there does seem to be something to what you're saying!

Ni is really all about expertise, right? gathering the information needed about ONE thing, sticking it all together, getting it all nice and neat for whenever an extroverted judging function needs to activate it.
But Ti can totally be used for Ni when the information it stuck together needs to be analyzed.
So, Ti is like goof-off for the crazy glue that is Ni, which is great for its user since that means they can correct information they have misinterpreted (I think?).
So if Ti pulls Ni apart, I guess they ARE opposites.
I'm currently seeing how that's also the case with the rest of the functions (though, really, isn't it obvious with Te and Ne?).
 

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Soop for the Soul
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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Nope. T and F creates structures, N and S does not. Ni doesn't have logic and it does not come to well defined conclusions, it just takes in information and by taking in the information constantly creates a picture. A picture is not a structure, it can change fluidly. In order for you to adjust your T or F content you have to take a hammer to it and destroy and rebuild parts of it. They are well defined and have clear borders.
As for Ni I'm not arguing that the information doesn't create a picture though, what I am arguing is that that picture is formed through our thinking process working on a level we are not conscious of and of course it can change, as can any conclusions drawn by Ti. As far as your picture structure thing, I don't find it to be in my experience as a Ti dom. This might not be true for Te and Fe, but then those would be comparable to Ne.

I think your confusion comes from seeing N as an intellectual product whereas in reality it is not.
I don't see N that way at all.
Intuition is irrationality in its intangible form, nothing more nothing less.
Yes, my point is that it's irrational but if you think back on it (I am speaking about Ni specifically here) using Ti, you can often figure out how it worked, so if this is true it must use your thinking beyond observation at a level you're not conscious of, and when you do use internal logic in the Ti way (not Te, not T general but Ti specifically) that pattern dictates your logic, but since Ti is a conscious process the thinking can be critiqued and edited while it is happening.
I think you're nailing it pretty well to a certain extent. Neurologically, they're physically opposite (Ti showing activity in front-left, Ni being rear-right), heheheh...
But there does seem to be something to what you're saying!

Ni is really all about expertise, right? gathering the information needed about ONE thing, sticking it all together, getting it all nice and neat for whenever an extroverted judging function needs to activate it.
But Ti can totally be used for Ni when the information it stuck together needs to be analyzed.
So, Ti is like goof-off for the crazy glue that is Ni, which is great for its user since that means they can correct information they have misinterpreted (I think?).
So if Ti pulls Ni apart, I guess they ARE opposites.
I'm currently seeing how that's also the case with the rest of the functions (though, really, isn't it obvious with Te and Ne?).
That has pretty much been my experience with using Ti and Ni honestly.

I suppose it should be obvious with Te and Ne, although I use neither so it's not an example I'm comfortable using. Actually now that I thought about it for a second it's pretty obvious.
 

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how tf do I delete posts?
You have to live with them. Might as well make them worth it. Just type EDIT and then add something fun idk.

Also, yes. Te needs grounding in order to be effective. Any Extroverted judging function does. Though Ne also leads to action, it's not grounded AT ALL (like Si and Ni are). It only leads to action, like Se, when it needs to perceive more.
When a human uses Fe and Te, there is actually little activity shown in the areas of the brain correlated to perception (getting more info). As a matter of fact, extroverted judging functions tend to shut perception down while they're at use.
If you think about it, that makes total sense regarding the stereotypes of J-types (regarding judge mentality or narrow-mindedness or whatever).
So there's no space for Ne when Te is in action. It's too disruptive and explosive. If both functions lead to action, they can't both be at work (... I think).
The same is true for Fe.
 

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what I am arguing is that that picture is formed through our thinking process working on a level we are not conscious of
This is the heart of the matter in your proposition it seems to me. But, what you're calling the "thinking process" isn't at all related to what intuition is, that's what I was trying to get at with my response to you. Intuition is not all that mysterious that it is a hidden super computer that is doing high frequency trading behind closed doors with cackling old men owning it counting their money and sipping their champagne while admiring strippers in their private rooms.

Introverted Intuition does not calculate. When it is confronted with a situation, that situation in itself has no value. It refers it to a 3.5 billion year old repository of images and personal experience. At the end of that process, it creates a complex picture that is highly personal and that is the thing that is valued. And that picture is just one thing. All that remains in the end is a kind of feeling or vibe that doesn't care about real things at all. It can be wrong, it can be lacking but it can be right on the money as well. That depends on how well it is supported with other functions and experience. A single meaning that is impossible to calculate will emerge because it is not fit to be calculated.

Extroverted Intuition doesn't calculate either. When it is confronted with a situation, all of the psychic energy is given to what that situation does not have at that moment. And that kind of process builds into objects (things, events, people, everything inside reality) every possibility, every eventuality and every consequence (as it is capable of). But it will not derive meaning. It will take an object and rotate it in every possible way it could just to chase after what is not there. This is also not a calculable mental process both in its approach and its products.

And as a side note, if Intuition was "incredibly fast and hidden thinking" as I assume you're defining it, T and N wouldn't be opposites though, don't you think?

One last point I'd like to make is about consciousness and the subconscious. This is not directly about you though, so I wouldn't want you to think I'm hostile to you or condescending you or anything. It's just that your proposition in this thread and your response got me thinking and made me arrive at a unrelated conclusion here.

You did call Ni unconscious thinking right? So as an ISTP your Ni is actually repressed by your Se. Its tertiary position makes it a little bit conscious but it is mostly unconscious as all tertiary functions are. Well according to Jung, repressed functions have two main states. The basic idea is, if you're repressing them a lot, they will try to claw their way into consciousness and succeed in it in the most unfortunate moments and in very nasty ways. And if you open yourself up to them and integrate them into your personality you will be a more complete, balanced individual.(Which I agree wholeheartedly btw) Jung also talks about chaos and order in human psychology. If we apply "chaos" to subconscious and "order" to conscious, which would be Ti Se as order and Ni Fe as chaos for you, then it does actually make sense to me that you would call Ni as unorganized and uncontrolled (chaotic) logic, and Ti as imposing order on that and having the ability to criticize "Ni's biased logic". So you see, when I think about your propositions here, it is not the propositions themselves I see, but your whole psyche speaking to me. And that leads me to the conclusion that Ni for you is a mystery not yet fully solved, and that is where your question comes from in the first place. Of course that seems only natural to me as my tertiary Fi is not something I have fully solved the mystery of for myself as well. (All this could be an example of Ni, come to think of it)

It is one thing to categorize and define a psychological function and another thing to be in it, experience it for yourself. And without experiencing it adequately, one can't have a complete understanding for that psychological function. That's all I'm suggesting. Sorry if I seem to jump to conclusions.
 
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