[niki]

This has been a curious question on my mind for quite some time
and now as an INFP, I'm braving myself to ask this nagging question, hopefully in order to open my mind a bit more, and to understand the "total opposite" Type a bit better, instead of making some immature preassumptions about you guys:

are there really any ESTJ who is altruistic ie: showing unselfish concern for the goods & welfare of others,
so not only all about money-and-status as their ultimate goals in life?

I think we all have witnessed of how some of the most advanced countries in the world have in essence 'degrading' the humanity & future generations of our Planet, by their selfish acts of capitalistic & constantly accumulating wealth without any concerns to other people (& nations),..and almost always their selfish acts often result in a worse condition of humanity and life, to a whole lots of population (all just to satisfy a few selfish people too).
I mean really, where's the long-term meaning in all of this?..
just wondering if any of you have at one point stopped your daily activities, pondered, and asked this "long-term" question?

maybe I'm also trying so much of finding a hope, in this too-often capitalistic & materialistic tendency we tend to see that's so prevalent nowadays..

hope to see some of your opinions on this one.
thank you.

 

[Llanis]

Ah hope, well you speak of goals, everyperson deals with will I be selfish, caring only for my own needs. Such as SP's caring only to be the center of attention verses performing and lifting everyone up? or NT's quest for knowledge to seem better than others versus knowledge to enlighten others, or SJs seeking material wealth for themselves or to help others?

SJ's yep we can be materialistic and selfish, but we can also be great providers and given proper self-reflection we can see the needs of others and try to provide for them. :happy:

We tend to develope our F side a little slower than say an ESFJ, but we can feel empathy and care for our fellow man, we sometimes feel the best way we can help others be through material means, and reaching out through emotions and words may be harder for us.

 

[laly37]

I am not a generous person, but if I care about someone, I will care about the well being of this person and try to d what I cam do to help.
Even if we like money and material, I do have ethics. I am also honnest and I would not lie to get what I want.
I doubt pur capitalism was a ESTJ idea. Making the richs richer and the poors poorer doesn't sound like us. Maybe we would have created communism, same share for all.

 

[KrystRay]

That was kind of a difficult read for me because you think so differently than I do...

I find myself to be very generous, but I'm also goal and status oriented. I am generous because I have the means to be and the fact that if I weren't I'd be a terrible hoarder. I get rid of just about everything I own over the course of two years so that I can make room for all of my new things. Of course, I am attached to my favorite shoes/purses/evening dresses, but I will give just about anything I own to someone (if I like them/think they need something).

Now, we do make excellent providers, expecting very little in return. We see it as our life's calling to do certain things. For me, it is providing an excellent life for my children (that I don't yet have), and my future. I guess it's not totally selfless because in doing this, it sets me up for a high status when I and my children are older... There is always a goal to achieve in doing things. I am a control freak and feel the need to provide for those I care about, whether or not they are family. Where there is chaos, I will create order. I can't help myself. Order is the goal.

I don't think I answered your question in the way that you wanted. You asked if there were any other goals than money and status. When I first read that, I answered out loud, "No," but I thought about it and I guess order and discipline are goals... I don't really think about the rest of the world. I have too many of my own problems to think about. There will never be world peace, there will never not be drugs being made and sold, there will never not be prostitution... I have accepted these things as facts when I was younger and stopped trying to save the world as I found it to be a waste of my time. I do what I can for those that I care about and for the causes that I think are important (animal rescue ) and I buy toys for the poor kids around Christmas, and other miscellaneous things, but I'm not about to overextend myself for the rest of the world. That's kind of harsh, but I figured I'd be honest with you.

 

[niki]

I don't think I answered your question in the way that you wanted. You asked if there were any other goals than money and status. When I first read that, I answered out loud, "No," but I thought about it and I guess order and discipline are goals... I don't really think about the rest of the world. I have too many of my own problems to think about. There will never be world peace, there will never not be drugs being made and sold, there will never not be prostitution... I have accepted these things as facts when I was younger and stopped trying to save the world as I found it to be a waste of my time. I do what I can for those that I care about and for the causes that I think are important (animal rescue ) and I buy toys for the poor kids around Christmas, and other miscellaneous things, but I'm not about to overextend myself for the rest of the world. That's kind of harsh, but I figured I'd be honest with you.

No, I actually appreciate very much of your honesty!
it really does make me understand more about the way you guys do kindness & goodness.

and reading all these posts initially surprised me...as how little I knew about ESTJs, and admitedly, used to assume the 'worst' of you, since you're practically the shadow function of me.
Now reading all these posts I guess kinda 'slap' me on the face, and opened my eyes by realizing that you guys can also be generous, and do kindness & goodness,...in your own way :happy:

and I love your answer, Llanis:

Such as SP's caring only to be the center of attention verses performing and lifting everyone up? or NT's quest for knowledge to seem better than others versus knowledge to enlighten others, or SJs seeking material wealth for themselves or to help others?

SJ's yep we can be materialistic and selfish, but we can also be great providers and given proper self-reflection we can see the needs of others and try to provide for them.

it's so true... if there's one thing I've learned from these posts, it's that "good" and "bad" does NOT depend on Personality Type.
in fact, each Type is also capable of doing good (& bad!), in its own way.

It somewhat comforts me & gives me hope, in humanity
thank you guys! :happy:

 

[WickedQueen]

Well, I'm still living in my parent's house because I have to support them financially. Both my parents are retired years ago. Since they have lots of debts, they use their retirement money to pay their debts. So now they 100% depending on me. I also have a grandma whose suffering a stroke since 2 years ago, a jobless brother with his jobless wife and their new born baby, a sister whose still in college, and a big brother who recently quit his job. So I have 7 (going on 8) heads to feed.

Some friends advice me to get out from the house to "force" my family to support themselves. But my moral ethic didn't allow me to do that. So I stay. I didn't do that for money or status. I'm also not a noble hearted person. I stay, because I feel that it is my responsibility, my duty, to take care of my family. And ESTJs don't run from our responsibilities. We deal with it, no matter what the consequences.

We are, after all, the Guardians.

 

[Llanis]

Wow, thats a lot to support Wicked, I can understand the parents, and the grandma, the syblings I can understand short term. I've had problems with a relative who wouldn't work. I advised my other relatives to put him out, becuase he wouldnt work.

That is one of the best things we could have done for him. He is now more successful than any point in his life, and on good terms with all of us. He grew from an irresponsible bratt, to a young successful man.

Now I'm not saying that this is your case, but best wishes to you and your family.

 

[niss]

@niki--

I'm glad you are reaching out to better understand other MBTI types.

FWIW, ESTJs, being motivated to the extreme by their sense of duty, are almost altruistic to a fault. They will sacrifice their life for the good of society and others, giving of themselves until there is nothing left to give, expecting little in return other than acknowledgement for their contribution.

The ESTJ embodies altruism. Not the save-the-baby-gray-whales type of warm-fuzzies stuff, but the grabbing-the-bull-by-the-horns and get the task done NOW! kind of altruism. Altruism is an action, not a feeling or nice thought. The ESTJ knows this and acts upon it.

Some of my best friends are ESTJs. I love 'em and would stand shoulder to shoulder with them while we take on the world.roud:

 

[Trekiael]

I feel somewhat offended by that stereotype (the same way I feel offended by the stereotype that french people are cowards).

There's a distinction to make about the way WE percieve money and status and the way others people might. What ESTJs (maybe I shouldn't speak in our all our names but I don't think I'm far from the target when I say this) see in money-and-status is more about the security, the duty, the responsability as citizen and providers for the next generations than their own personnal self-satisfaction. The need to achieve something, to accomplish the goal we set on ourselves has nothing to do with showing off to other people that we are better than them or whatever those VIP do, but it's more like gut instinct, if we don't, we feel lost.

Now on a more personnal point of view:

first of all, if I did care that much about money-and-status, I would pick my friends using that criteria. Which is certainly not the case. For now, I've got neither status nor money, but I'm working on that. Because I'm rather poor, I could use this as an excuse to only spend money on what's strictly necessary. Which is true, when it applies to myself. But I never forget my friends or family memebers' birthdays and always make sure to do something for them. And by do I don't mean go to a bookshop, buy some book I've heard might be good, and done. No, I mean spending at least a week before the day (because birthdays have to be celebrate on the day, not before, not after), contact their friends, make arrangements for the place to eat, cook if needed, go around town finding the perfect gifts, small and big ones, no matter the price, sometimes do them myself, like clothes, paintings...

Now, that's my way, beside the small touches, of showing people I care. I appear cold to my NF family members because I never tell them I love them (I suck with words of affection, and my compliments are mostly objective observations), and I never call them. But I give them practical advices, never forget their birthdays, and they know they can talk to me about anything.

For the future, I'm planning to be a wedding planner. Not because of the money I can make if I succeed, but because of my love for traditions, plannification, and making people have the best day they could wish for. I'm even planning to create the wedding dresses myself so they can have their dream dress at an affordable price. It's not about the money I'll make, but about being satisfied when I go back home after a hard day of work.

Ok, that was a bit too much information, especially personnal information, but my point is: what you may perceive at being money-and-status orientated people that don't know about altruicism is making those very people feel hurt by feeling that what they do for others is not aknowledged at all. I've got the perfect exemple: Have you seen the little mermaid by Dysney? Think about her dad, too strict, too mean, that doesn't give a crap about her feelings. He's actually protecting her from her own stupidity, willing to sacrifice himself for her safety and in the end, even willing to help her accomplish her dream. That's what ESTJs are about. In my humble opinion.

 

[agreenbough]

My ESTJ is not a sentimental person at all, and isn't interested in the trappings associated with holidays and special occassions. But he's a good worker and provider, and is very altruistic. He will always do what he can to help other people even if he has to go far out of his way. Though I have to say he sometimes doesn't see the need in his own family because he's so focused on others. I sometimes feel that he would be more inclined to help a stranger than me - like he sees helping strangers as his duty to society, but if I need or want anything it's more of a chore. I try not to take it personally - which is easier at some times than others - because I know he has a good heart. I know I'm not good at being direct and I'm sure he often has no idea what I want. It's up to me to be more clear. But when I'm direct, he often reacts like I'm being a nag. It's a no-win.
But he's as steady and reliable as the sun coming up in the morning, and that's worth a lot.
Money and status are of zero importance to him. As long as he can provide for his family and do the things he enjoys, he's happy.

 

[Trekiael]

My ESTJ is not a sentimental person at all, and isn't interested in the trappings associated with holidays and special occassions. But he's a good worker and provider, and is very altruistic. He will always do what he can to help other people even if he has to go far out of his way. Though I have to say he sometimes doesn't see the need in his own family because he's so focused on others. I sometimes feel that he would be more inclined to help a stranger than me - like he sees helping strangers as his duty to society, but if I need or want anything it's more of a chore. I try not to take it personally - which is easier at some times than others - because I know he has a good heart. I know I'm not good at being direct and I'm sure he often has no idea what I want. It's up to me to be more clear. But when I'm direct, he often reacts like I'm being a nag. It's a no-win.
But he's as steady and reliable as the sun coming up in the morning, and that's worth a lot.
Money and status are of zero importance to him. As long as he can provide for his family and do the things he enjoys, he's happy.

I can't speak for him, but the fact that he doesn't always help you might have something to do with the fact that he implicitely, and maybe subconsciously trusts you. Because there's so many people we need to take care of to build a proper society, once we have grabbed someone by the biceps, pulled them to their feet, slap their back, make sure they stand firm, we trust them to be able to do well enough on their own. Unless they proved otherwise. And yes, one thing for sure, ESTJs might be pretty blind to other people's worries. don't be afraid of talking, being frank and honnest is never a bad thing. Just try not to turn it into some kind of reproach. Giving them a goal is always better than making them feel guilty.

In my humble opinion ^^

 

[Queen of Cups]

Well, I'm still living in my parent's house because I have to support them financially. Both my parents are retired years ago. Since they have lots of debts, they use their retirement money to pay their debts. So now they 100% depending on me. I also have a grandma whose suffering a stroke since 2 years ago, a jobless brother with his jobless wife and their new born baby, a sister whose still in college, and a big brother who recently quit his job. So I have 7 (going on 8) heads to feed.

Some friends advice me to get out from the house to "force" my family to support themselves. But my moral ethic didn't allow me to do that. So I stay. I didn't do that for money or status. I'm also not a noble hearted person. I stay, because I feel that it is my responsibility, my duty, to take care of my family. And ESTJs don't run from our responsibilities. We deal with it, no matter what the consequences.

We are, after all, the Guardians.

This is one of the things I like the most about my husband. He doesn't support his parents financially, but he is very generous of his time and helping his mom with things, even at the expensive of his leisure time sometimes. And he will help his friends with pretty much anything.

He doesn't donate to charity and doesn't believe in giving to every cause out there. But, on a few occasions I have seen him give out of the goodness of his heart to people he cares about. Ex. A friend of his committed suicide leaving his wife and three kids behind. And, when he found out that their life insurance wasn't going to pay, he sent them a rather large monetary donation anonymously.

 

[Trekiael]

This is one of the things I like the most about my husband. He doesn't support his parents financially, but he is very generous of his time and helping his mom with things, even at the expensive of his leisure time sometimes. And he will help his friends with pretty much anything.

He doesn't donate to charity and doesn't believe in giving to every cause out there. But, on a few occasions I have seen him give out of the goodness of his heart to people he cares about. Ex. A friend of his committed suicide leaving his wife and three kids behind. And, when he found out that their life insurance wasn't going to pay, he sent them a rather large monetary donation anonymously.

Now I think that's exactly what being a guardian is about. Giving money is too easy and only self-satisfactory. time, effort, spending time with people to help them get back on their feet, is a lot harder. But people tend not to see that. Giving money to charity, I think, is the same as giving money to someone at a street corner: what gives you the right to pick this person and not the next? You feel good about yourself for the next five seconds it takes you to see another homeless person/another add on TV on charity. Taking good care of your relatives (family or friends) is already something. Sometimes, yes, money is the answer, but it can't be the easy way out. like buying your kids chocolate in a supermarket so they stop crying. The fact that he gave money anonymously so that woman doesn't feel like she owns him anything is good thinking on his part.

In my humble opinion... ^^

 

[niki]

thanks for the mind-changing responses!

thank you everybody for your additional responses, especially Trekiael's.
a POV from an ESTJ himself,..there's nothing more mind-changing than that!
now I will definitely see ESTJ in a clearer light, and obviously in a more objective view :smile:

you guys are right..
"good" or "bad" can't be easily (or perhaps rather 'naively') pinpointed to a mere MBTI Type.
heck, just like one poster has said well above: each Type is capable of doing good and/or bad things, it just depends on the person.

much appreciated!

 

[fishier3000]

I know a possible ESTJ (or ENTJ) with a pretty high Fi. Speaks out what he thinks is right and wrong and is practically unafraid. He is amazingly magnetic. I admire him greatly.

 

[niki]

I know a possible ESTJ (or ENTJ) with a pretty high Fi. Speaks out what he thinks is right and wrong and is practically unafraid. He is amazingly magnetic. I admire him greatly.

you mean he has developed quite a strong Fi, thorough his life experiences?
ie: it's not something he's born with or natural with, that he needs to develop it, along life experiences & lessons, right?

 

[tskim]

I'm not concerned about money but I do think having a fair amount is very important. It's only fair that I'm able to support myself and my loved ones that need help, so in order to get my needs and wants taken care of, I'll need enough money in order to do so. Now, I like having that balance put in everything and I give when its the right time and the situation isnt difficult and no one is struggling but until then, I wont be having all the money to myself but I would also want to help with the finances and everything else before my wants. Of course we treat ourselves sometime after it because I do. I buy whatever it is that I see that particularly 'interests' me and thats because I know that I deserve it. I do think of the long term consequences to my actions and thats why I would sit and think about what I should or can do that will make a difference instead of going to another direction, the complications I'm going to face will revolve around me and its a never ending cycle.

Anyway, if I am able to help, I will. I might not be generous to people in general because I dont see the reason to be otherwise, I should be generous to everyone else and not have a 'favorite' because if I'm going to volunteer, I would rather do it right than be a hypocrite.

Bottom line is, I am generous when I need to be or when I see the reason to be.

 

[Trekiael]

Talking about money reminds me of two things: Dunno about other ESTJs, but for me, it's much, much easier to lend money than borrow some. I only borrow money from my XSTJ best friend, and never paper money, one will pay McDo and the other will pay next time, or when my card doesn't work at the supermarket he pays for me, but we've been working like that for years, and always pay each other back. So yeah, you can easily borrow money from an ESTJ, if you really need it, they'll gladly lend it to you. But remember to give it back, because they won't necessarily ask, but giving money back is a question of responsability, even if they don't really need it.
Second exemple of what you call altruism and I would call sense of duty, is blood. I give my blood, or plasma, regularly. I'm young, I'm healthy (exept for my smoking habit), I can stick that in my schedule, and I'm O+, which, hile not being universal donor, still represents a good part of the population, at least here in France. I'm not doing it to feel god about myself, for some misplaced pride, but because if I can, I have to. Which is why, I got annoyed when the Blood Compagny thingy (dunno how you call it in english), sent me a certificate and a badge that say "you're a good donor! You can show off now!" Dammit, like hell I'd show off about something as natural as that.
Yeah, so to conclude, switch "altruist" with "dutifull" and "responsible" and you'll have ESTJs. It's not about what our heart tells us, but what our sense of honor does.

 

[Booko]

I don't hang with people who are money and status oriented, because frankly I think it's pretty boring. That said:

My best friend and my mom are ESTJs and have some similarities related to this question.

They are no so much interested in their status as knowing they have a solid place in their community.

They are only concerned about money in the sense that they wish to use it wisely and not as some sort of proof of status.

They are both generous. My mom moreso with her time. My best friend with both time and money.

In fact, I would say my best friend is kinda generous to a fault. Like I'd expect of an ESTJ, she values those special occasions and gives gifts at times like that -- even to people I normally would not. I don't give gifts to mere acquaintances, or my doctors, or teachers. She does -- without fail. When she hears someone is in need, she networks to find help anyway she can. She's done that even for people she doesn't care for much. It's just "what one does."

Now if only I could convince her that INTJs really really do not give a rat's ear about celebrating their birthdays and please don't imply there's something "wrong" with me because I don't care to do anything for mine...

But I get around that difference by finding a movie we want to see and if she wants to call it a "birthday" thing I'll put up with it in the name of keeping the peace. Then we eat Chinese. That's simple enough for me any day.