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However there's a character arc I've seen in INFPs - they want to fall, they want to burn, they want to see what's on the "other side" of it - to go through that portal and become this Powerful Creature (for good or ill - often ill I feel, but who am I to say otherwise? And this does go into something I have been devastated to see in myself sometimes; a paternalistic, patronising conviction I know what's best FOR YOU - it's a characteristic I'd hoped I'd stayed away from however at some key moments it's cropped up and I've caught myself doing it - sometimes it is necessary too however I hope to severely refine the impulse or else become something which I hate too.)

So when you say INFPs actually wish for this "purity" pre burn out, well, I don't know - I find it convincing as a proposition for ENFPs, it seems to fit what patterns I've observed - I find it an affectionate and sympathetic framing of an ENFP's struggle - but I don't know about INFPs - maybe just because I'm wary of somewhat trampling on their far more sensitive sides.
I don't think I've observed this. I haven't met an INFP intending to fail and fall down and burn out. Even those that are depressed or in otherwise extremely low spirits or feel trapped in a seemingly never-ending cycle of pain wish to be free of their predicament. I think it would be more accurate to say that INFPs find failure inevitable and that they are not good enough or equipped for the task. Having struggled through that experience, they wish to have learned something new or improved themselves in some way.

You're also saying two things. I can't tell if you'd remove an INFP's trials away from them. From what I can tell, you think they should struggle with their problems without outside intervention so they can grow as people?
 

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I have seen this moment on more than one occaision with INFPs (never my doing, but certainly my strange, disconcerted participation in as a bystander watching and honestly unsure how to counsel on the subject of self-determination vs what - I don't know, I might consider my deeper instincts):


I can't deny I feel a certain applause - a desire that all their suffering should be worth something, if you're gifted with so much pain, it should become something - surely - to not be protected from the world - to carry through it the understanding of pain which is filtered by purity in a way I think only INFPs (even ISFPs, who I feel are in many ways far more profound or "important") have.

However - I don't know - it may just be a deeply flawed, bankrupt instinct in myself - a sort of "luciferian" aspect. You know:


I'm here with my nose in it since the whole thing began! I've nurtured every sensation (Wo)Man has been inspired to have - I cared about what (S)He wanted; and I never judged him - why? Because I never rejected him, in spite of all of his imperfections - I'M A FAN OF MAN

And yet, that instinct is not necessarily wholly bad, I don't think...


Humans are odd... they think Order and Chaos are somehow opposites... and try to control what won't be, but there is Grace in their Failings: ...I think you miss that.

Yet, it does seem that on some / one level it is in fact a very comfortable subjugation a lot of INFPs crave - to be "protected" and "provided" for with all the enslavement and hidden coercion that implies, I don't know.
 

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@Six I am glad that I arrived at the correct ideas. I’m not sure about all the things you’re seeing. I’m glad I was able to find the burned out concept and that it fit.

We are all on PerC now aren’t we? Whiling away our finite time on earth even though I also have a house by the sea.

As usual all of my judgements keep a window open. No worries. So... what you’re seeing would make for interesting posts. I need more description to make sure I see the same thing you see or are talking about. Pm me first, how about? And then we can find through our comparisons a question to ask NFPs if you’d like.
 

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My mom and I "grew up together" because she had me when she was 19. She had issues to work through (as do we all) but she is an amazing lady and I am proud to have grown under her heart. She's an artist and she knows the value of silliness. We have so much fun together! I miss her. She lives 6.5 hours away from me and I don't get to spend as much time with her as I'd like. I am very proud to be her son. I see more similarities between us as we have gotten older. Shared values, desire to do/be good people, that sort of thing.
Thank you for sharing this. She, you and the combination of the two of you learning how to iron out all the wrinkles together- sounds like it all turned out lovely.😊 Hiccups along the way and all. I hope you get to see her soon! I have 3 boys. It makes my heart happy to see such a neat bond btwn mom & son. ❤
 
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I'm feeling a bit frustrated. People complain that INFJ's aren't honest/are fake because of Fe, but then when we are honest & direct people get mad & think we're assholes. HoW dArE yOu ExPrEsS yOuR AcTuAl ThOuGhTs AnD fEeLiNgS 😤. It's an unwinable battle. Piss off. We are allowed to be jerks sometimes too. It seems like other types get a pass on this. Being direct is admired. Being an asshole is admired. It's just expected of them, it's how they are so it's ok. An INFJ does it & they get shat all over. Because we are nice most of the time doesn't mean we are going to be nice all of the time. It's not an either/or. We can be both. The end.
That is why I like you people. The whole package.
What is neat, apart from mom son bond, is how high your definition of value stands. If you can follow me on that one.

Sort of saying this with a bloody heart as I did put effort to become the best at it, so here it goes: Ive been leading stuff my entire life. Small, avg, big, irrelevant., personal and meaningful. But to me, the way a movie producer friend, a professional partner, a psychologist, the SO from IRL and basically all the rest of the infjs around PerC have qualities that I can only dream of as leaders of humanity. Sometimes I look at you people, and admire so damn heavily the stuff you are not aware about yourselves that I find myself noticing minitears coming/forming at the ends of my eyes from all the gratefullness for having understood the mbti, instincts and enneagramm - and where that is coming from at a relatively early stage of my life. It has made this journey extremely enjoyable and constructively pleasant. Its really valuable to me to reflect upon where your principles misalign with how I think and so where I can improve to advance in all sorts of life aspects. Really cool. So thanks for that one to ya all.

To me I get a lot of honesty from my SO. It started when the SO started to feel cozy around me, commitment wisely. I find it not only a relief but also a major relationship dynamics improvement. Also I believe the overall confidence levels of the SO has been building up slowly too, but never really in a head explode way, but more as if the SO would operate more from a ..idk.. like I know myself better everysingle day now, so I can afford to be more and more me now. So to me, that is a massive sexappeal as its like, having more and more of what Im after everysingle second of the interaction. Its really amazing. Is so good, its making me go speechless often during the interaction itself. Like literally just mind blown. But the honesty had to click in first for me to steer the relationship to the next level. And time to get to know one another was definetely required during the process. So I guess thats the maximum of this then. Ive had one or two SOs. But I hadnt ever really experienced like this, I guess sould mate type of freedom. I can not understand what the SO sees in me, but after learing today that infjs are into serial thrillers, then perhaps that is the logic behind that one then.

The positive dilemma is, and this is still keeping me on my toes here, that there are no hickups. That is new. That is most definetely new to me, as Im very critical as a specimen. When the blunt openness arrived ... I just found the SO perfect. It was like the SO putting a set of rose glasses on me and the bang, I was sold in.

But yes. Sxsos infjs will definetely be both firm and warm.

So I guess what Im saying here is, that the faster you infj own firmness in ANY environment, can I say it as it is, the hotter you become? ;)
 

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Ah, apologies that I didn't provide more details about that INFJ and left a different impression. You did nail it with the thoughtless wording. His real feelings just slipped out under the stress.
Oh. Ouch. 😣 Was he passive aggressive at all? I wonder if he was upset with you prior due to the time thing you mention below. 👇

 
I will clarify a bit: it hadn't faded to the point where we hadn't talked in months or something that I would consider the friendship fizzled out. You know? We were still talking on a semi-regular basis, once a week or so. I did end up busy before the hurricane and a couple of weeks went by. This INFJ was familiar with MBTI, but I don't think he really understood INTP and our perception of time. Letting a couple of weeks go by is, like, no big deal. If INFJ considered that enough time for a friendship to start fading, INTP does not. For us, that's like blinking and going, "Oh right, there's this reality thing here. It needs to be taken care of. Oops." 😅

And with my situation, that INTP tendency is even worse, haha.
In regards to the bolded, this could maybe have caused him to be hurt & written you off as a friend? Normally I'm the one getting into trouble with friends for not keeping in touch enough, but I have an ENTP friend that was a learning curve for me. The ability to bombard you all day for days and then you don't hear from them for a bit. There's no pattern or consistency so it was confusing to me at first. Now I'm good with it & know it's just how some people operate. I've learned to compartmentalize. The thing is, I don't really care about time btwn communication unless it's someone I really care about. Then I notice & care. So it could actually be the reverse- if he cares a great deal for you, what you said in the bolded could be very confusing & upsetting to him. Just something to consider. May not be the case, but it could explain his sudden coldness. 🤷‍♀️



Also, when it's an emergency like a hurricane? It doesn't matter if I haven't talked to someone in awhile, I'm going to make sure they're ok. I still care about them, and time doesn't really matter in that sense. I have some "internet friends" that others would argue aren't real friends, but they live in Cali. Every time there's an earthquake or wildfire, I'm like hunting them down, no matter how much of a lapse in between, just like, "Are you ok?"

Someone has to really kick me in the teeth for me to get to a point where I won't see if they're ok during a bad time.
Right, for sure! I live in CA- it cracks me up when I get a text from someone asking if I'm ok because of the earthquake & I have no idea there even was an earthquake. Knock on wood. Now my house is going to fall down on me & the earth is going to swallow me up whilst screaming "Ohhh yeah? YOU FEEL THIS B!TCH?!"



That's fair to say. As an INTP I have chronic curiosity and that gets me into trouble. I can dive in like, "I want to know everything!" and then be like "MISTAKES WERE MADE." :LOL:
I don't think I could love this comment more. I really don't. SAAAAME 😂

With this younger INFJ, if he had been just losing interest, would it have happened more organically, maybe? It felt fake since it all happened fast. I do have trauma with people being fake with me, not going to lie, and when they're done with the act, they drop fast. The INFJ's speed is what set off my sore spots, as it were.

I wish I had an answer or explanation for his behavior, I'm sorry. 😕 We really are bad at communicating. I need someone to force issues with me. It makes me uncomfortable but I actually really appreciate it. And it's understandable to be hurt. I'd have felt the same way, were I in your shoes.

 
Humans aren't made up of "sugar and spice and everything nice." Lots of bad and ugly too. I have the most trouble with people who refuse to own who they are, warts and all. That's also where "fake" comes from. It's not always fake towards me. I see people trying to convince themselves all the time their poop don't stink, or that they don't poop at all, and then try to convince me too.

Ok, I'll just be far away over here with the air freshener.
What is this poop you speak of? Sounds gross. I can assure you, I don't do this. I'm not sure what you've been reading, but INFJs do NOT poop.
🙃

And then I wonder sometimes if he actually got his feelings hurt. There were some things that happened between him, me, and the other INFJ, and he was always super nice. I wanted to know how he really felt and he was just like, "No, it's ok, I'm fine." He would open, close, open, close. So I don't know if he was trying to distance himself after getting hurt, to eventually ghost away. I hate when people do that, though I'm guilty of that in my younger years too. But it was that front of being nice, too, that made it feel fake? It's not real. You said before it may be dishonest, so I could just be using the wrong word.
I would say that yes, there is a strong possibility this could be the case. I guess maybe I'd encourage you to ask him? It makes us oh so uncomfortable, but I think we secretly appreciate it when people almost force us to spill the beans. I guess I shouldn't speak for all INFJ but I know I do. It helps me grow. My ENTP friend has done this on occasion & I always am thankful afterwards. I greatly admire people that are able to do this tactfully. It makes me want to rise up & do/be better.

That's also what I mean by him making the decision for me. He decided not to tell me what was really going on, one way or the other. He decided for both of us how the friendship was going to go. This past weekend, I was using my energy to DM someone here (this is relevant). Someone I wanted to befriend. She's been having a tough time. After a few posts back and forth she was honest enough to say, "No, I feel too broken, please leave me alone."

Did it sting? Oh heck yeah. I was sitting there like, "No, it's fine, I like banging my head on a wall." 😬

But you know what? She stated her boundaries clear as day, and all I can do is respect them. She treated me like a big enough person to tell me something I didn't like, and let me handle it. My feelings are hurt only because I want to help, but if I wasn't helping to begin with, then I need to let go anyway. It gives me closure, whereas with the INFJ I'm still sitting here going, "Ok, what actually happened?"
[/spoiler]Yes, this makes sense to us I promise! We know this is how we should behave (at least I think we do :oops:. I know I do.) but I think that worry of hurting feelings is just so stinking strong in us. The conflict it brings. Maybe that's what it is. It's more a cowardice to face the conflict. I will say this- I feel physically ill after speaking like this to someone. (As in the example you listed above. The person you were trying to befriend & she said "No".) When I do this, it affects my body physically. The worry that I've hurt their feelings. And it lasts for a while. My whole being is upset & out of sorts.



That said, the whole losing interest thing reminded me of and got me going on the tangent about narcissists and assholery.



So, my former long-time INFJ friend came up with this interesting analogy: people treat each other like a list of ingredients on a cereal box. They browse the aisle, look over the box, decide it doesn't have what they're looking for, put it back, keep going. I'm going to focus on the extreme end here for the moment.

 
Some of the points he was making with that:

1) People are more than a list of ingredients. But we get reduced down to a list of labels all the time, and accepted or discarded accordingly.
2) We treat each other selfishly. We look at another person like, "What can you give me? Are you the list of things I want?" rather than looking at people as people.
3) People are expendable, at least emotionally. If they do have the right list of ingredients, they're consumed and then discarded. If not, they're just discarded.

For people who are selfish or narcissistic, losing interest is more on this expendable level. Since this behavior is normalized at this point, though, it lays the foundation for narcissism to be rewarded. Those who are picked to be in the fan club form a personality cult, enabling the behavior. The narcissist appears to be a leader, capable of making decisions. I mean, to me, it seems it'd be easy to make decisions when nothing exists in the world but myself.

With billions of people in the world, someone can cause great harm to others with little consequence. One person can go through hundreds of lives and never gain any of the notoriety that would normally stop them. And since people are all instant-gratification based, they tend to fall for the front of charm, charisma, and showering of attention that works in the short-term.

At a more reasonable level, most people are just exhausted and overloaded, bombarded psychologically as we are. I learned the hard way with diving in and regretting it later that it's way easy to over-extend now. I would even venture to guess that your loss of interest comes from energy and/or empathy drain. Some people take more effort to connect with than others, and sometimes there's just flat no room.

In that sense, nurturing the friendships themselves would wax and wane over time based on the energy levels and commitments of both parties, and that's just natural.
This is an interesting section. I've got a lot of thoughts running through my head on it but I'm not able to put them into a clear & understandable write up at this point. It's an idea I need to think about more.

I will say that the bolded is absolutely accurate for me. It's generally not that it's a loss of interest, it's just prioritizing what I have room for. Some days I can barely manage taking care of my family. And I know I take in more friends than I can handle. Especially since I really only crave a deep relationship with 1 or 2 people. I just need to figure out how to manage things better I guess.


That is good self-awareness.

You say in other posts that you really like being a nice person. I was a people-pleaser for the longest time. It's difficult to give up, even these days, since it's very addictive. The approval rating and all. I love how a lot of shows taking place in the present-day or near-future now will sneak in our desire for approval by how people want to be rated in this or that app, always hustling for those 5 stars.

So I guess I'm wondering: do you prioritize nice over truth, or try to balance them?



I appreciate this genuine kindness, thank you. 💜
I have been thinking a lot about your "People's feelings are not your responsibility" comment. I was thinking about starting a thread on it, but I can't even keep up with regular interactions here, so most likely won't. I'm just curious what other's thoughts are on this idea. I understand and agree(ish 😄), it's good to keep it in mind & I've reminded myself of this quite a bit the last week or so. BUT it will also always be my natural inclination to feel that way. And I do think we all hold some responsiblity to other's feelings. I don't believe people should blindly run around saying & doing whatever they want & thinking it's not their problem if someone is hurt by it. That's a bit absurd to me. Not that I think that's what you're saying.

In regards to the people-pleasing. I don't look at people-pleasing in the way that it is done for my own gratification. Because it makes me feel good. I just genuinely want people to feel good. I keep analyzing this & if there's a selfish motive hidden in it, but there really isn't. Actually maybe that's wrong. Because it does make me happy to see other's happy, so I suppose there is selfishness in that? But I just want people to feel good. To feel happy. "People pleaser" often has a negative connotation behind it & I think that's a bit unfortunate, honestly. What is wrong with putting others first & wanting others to be happy? Obviously it becomes a problem when one is doing it for selfish reasons & can end up resentful or does the "martyr" bit. That's not healthy. But if everyone put other's first, wouldn't that be kind of great? I don't know. I think the "people-pleasing" can get a bad rap. It's encouraged to think about self first now, to be selfish. Yes that is necessary sometimes, but not all of the time. People need to care about other people more. Meh. Jibber jabber.

Nice over truth: good question. I try to balance them as much as possible. My goal is to place equal value on them. I probably fail a lot. If I looked back & reflected, I'd guess I'd see nice win out more often than not because again, worried about hurting someone's feelings. I'd say it also depends as each circumstance is unique. For example, what the "truth" is and who the person is that I'm dealing with. But I agree, I probably don't give people enough credit for being tough & that's unfair of me to make that decision for them.

I see great value in topics like this. To learn from each other & see other POVs. Which in turn is encouraging to make adjustments to our own behavior. I will say I've already learned a lot from what others have had to say in this thread & really reflected on myself. I have since actually taken action in changing some of my behaviors. So thank you for that. :) And thanks for sharing your thoughts & experiences here, @Battlelina. I said it before but I'll mention it again, please feel free to ask any questions of share frustrations you have. I think many of us (INFJ) enjoy the discourse & opportunity to work together to figure things out. Hope you're having a great day![/QUOTE]
 

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That is why I like you people. The whole package.
What is neat, apart from mom son bond, is how high your definition of value stands. If you can follow me on that one.

Sort of saying this with a bloody heart as I did put effort to become the best at it, so here it goes: Ive been leading stuff my entire life. Small, avg, big, irrelevant., personal and meaningful. But to me, the way the way a movie producer friend, a professional partner, a psychologist, the SO from IRL and basically all the rest of the infjs around PerC have qualities that I can only dream of as leaders of humanity. Sometimes I look at you people, and admire so damn heavily the stuff you are not aware about yourselves that I find myself noticing minitears coming forming at the ends of my eyes from all the gratefullness for having understood the mbti, instincts and enneagramm - and where that is coming from at a relatively early stage of my life. It has made this journey extremely enjoyable and constructively pleasant. Its really valuable to me to reflect upon where your principles misalign with how I think and so where I can improve to advance in all sorts of life aspects. Really cool. So thanks for that one to ya all.

To me I get a lot of honesty from my SO. It started when the SO started to feel cozy around me, commitment wisely. I find it not only a relief but also a major relationship dynamics improvement. Also I believe the overall confidence levels of the SO has been building up slowly too, but never really in a head explode way, but more as if the SO would operate more from a ..idk.. like I know myself better everysingle day now, so I can afford to be more and more me now. So to me, that is a massive sexappeal as its like, having more and more of what Im after everysingle second of the interaction. Its really amazing. Is so good, its making me go speechless often during the interaction itself. Like literally just mind blown. But the honesty had to click in first for me to steer the relationship to the next level. And time to get to know one another was definetely required during the process. So I guess thats the maximum of this then. Ive had one or two SOs. But I hadnt ever really experienced like this, I guess sould mate type of freedom. I can not understand what the SO sees in me, but after learing today that infjs are into serial thrillers, then perhaps that is the logic behind that one then.

The positive dilemma is, and this is still keeping me on my toes here, that there are no hickups. That is new. That is most definetely new to me, as Im very critical as a specimen. When the blunt openness arrived ... I just found the SO perfect. It was like the SO putting a set of rose glasses on me and the bang, I was sold in.

But yes. Sxsos infjs will definetely be both firm and warm.

So I guess what Im saying here is, that the faster you infj own firmness in ANY environment, can I say it as it is, the hotter you become? ;)

You have made it quite a while without getting banned, baha. ;)

Thank you. And I'm happy to hear you've found someone so special. I hope you two continue to be a blessing for each other!
 
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