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Discussion Starter #1
I want to discuss it with people, most ENFP I know and heard of seem to be agnostics. I am too, and it's usually because we try to make ends meet.
What are your religious views? Mine is a neutral standpoint, it can be proved and disproved equally, and an extreme to one side is usually wrong with little proof, this goes for you atheists.
I used to be Christian, Iglesia ni Cristo to me exact. (If their members are here, hear me out) I have read other holy scriptures, they're identical, and the abrahamic religions have the most conflict. If they work together, put thei differences aside, they may be able to prove a god exists. I mean, the atheists work together and look at what thu achieved. The Muslims I know desire to cooperate with Christians and the Jews. "We worship the same god because there's only ONE god!" The Christians seem to be more stubborn with this, I guess because of 9/11, but the past is the past, why can't we just ditch our grudges? Also, in the old Sumerian story Gilgamesh has so events that happen in the Old Testament.
But we're still humans so we might never have the answers, in this lifetime at least.
On the Internet, atheists bash theists, theists bash atheists, but it's so much more difficult to defend theists sinc they can't put their religious views aside. They even argue with each other! Isn't Beleiving in a god better than worshipping, hating, and killing in the name of "their" god? The only difference between them is really just how they worship them!
I have respect for the new pope. He's not the pope that goes "NON BELEIVERS GO TO HELL! MUSLIMS ARE BAD" and things like that, he has a positive view on things. "Everyone goes to heaven!" And by everyone, he means everyone, my respect for that man is higher than past popes.

And for atheists, SCIENCE IS FUCKING AWESOME. But it's wrong to say "their absolutely is no god" without enough proof. Heck, these two are the reason I'm agnostic. Theists go: there is god/gods! And atheist: THERE IS NO GOD/GODS!
I need proof to go to one side, I even defend both! It's so difficult trying to appeal both sides, and it's always a majority picking on a minority in the Internet fights. I always defend the minority.
 

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God is real enough for me. You are probably much more well versed in the philosophical reasoning behind theism and Christianity, based on what you've said. I just do science, and appreciate the nuances in that sphere. Religion is not that complex for me. Feeling God's presence is enough evidence that He exists, so it's hard to argue with people about such a topic.
 

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Agnostic all the way o.o I don't particularly like taking sides, especially not on things that generate ugly illogical disputes from both sides ^^;.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Agnostic all the way o.o I don't particularly like taking sides, especially not on things that generate ugly illogical disputes from both sides ^^;.
I agree, but I can't stand it when the one with the most people in is picking on the minority. UNLESS of course, the minority is saying something unjust (ahem, westboro baptist church) then I take the side of the majority. I only take sides when things are extreme.
 

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Dont get offended by this - but saying you "feel" something isnt evidence for existence. People have delusions all the time and "feel" that they're real, when they're not.

I dont believe in god. And even if he did exist, why should I love him? Why should I love ANYONE just because im told to.

Fact of the matter is, since the beginning of recorded history there have been nearly 3000 "gods" recorded among different time periods. The god you believe in is the majority of cases a result of the time you've been born into, your family history and your geographical location. If you had been born in ancient greece you would be worshiping Zeus, had you been born in the middle east you'd likely be worshiping Mohammad. Had you been a viking you'd have worshiped the likes of Thor and Odin.

What's funny to me is that every person who believes in one particular god all believe THEY are right.

However, I am pretty certain you're ALL wrong. To the point where I would sell my soul to the so-called 'devil', im that certain.

I'm my own person and I dont, and would refuse to worship anyone or anything.



VVV Speaks for itself

do-not-fear-hell.jpg
 

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Feeling God's presence is enough evidence that He exists.
no, its not, sorry.
Does santa exist if i say I feel him coming down the chimney?
 

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What are your religious views?
I am an atheist. I personally chose not to believe in an Abrahamic God, or most Gods for that matter. It really depends on your definition of a “God”, but at any rate, in most cases I am an atheist. That is not to say that I don’t think that a God doesn’t exist for other people. Gods can be very really to others, and if other people chose to believe in a God, or Gods, that is fine. I don’t really care. I simply chose to opt out.


If I may point out, atheism is not an organized or structured belief. We do not fly under one flag. Atheism is a viewpoint, and it can differ from one person to another in large ways. There are the screaming, shouting, angry atheists that say “THERE IS NO GOD, YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS FOR BELIEVING IN ONE”, yes, but there are many more types than just that. Those, I believe are the more Anit-theistic ones. One can be an atheist and not anti-theistic. I am such. I’m something of an agnostic atheist. I have no proof that a God doesn’t exist, but even though I don’t, I still personally chose not to believe in one.


As for science….it doesn’t always correlate with atheism. Not all atheist take a scientific standpoint. This goes back to the thing about how atheism is not like a structured religion, and there is no guideline on how atheists as a whole operate or what they believe in.


Personally, I would say that science IS fucking awesome. I would like to say that it had relatively little to do with my beliefs though, and it didn’t impact it that much. Long before I even truly started to like science, I was already on my path of atheism. A lot of the time, science does reinforce some of the ideas I have about theism, but it didn’t spark or create them. They were already there. So, I was an atheist before science became a huge part of my life. As for others I have met that were on the science path, it varies. I have met people on both sides of the spectrum. I know many aspiring biologist, and chemists, and engineers that are people of faith, just as I know a lot of them who are agnostic or atheist.


Long story short, a lot of people use science as a catalyst of their faith, but I personally leave it out. The only time I really cite science in correlation with my beliefs is if someone else (usually a theists) brings it up, and then I use what I know to support my personal beliefs in the matter.


I don’t hate religion, or the notion of God, or anything like that. I really don’t care that much if I am honest. I find a lot of religious texts and doctrine to be interesting, and I've spent a share of my time reading about varies belief systems and religions. I think religion and faith can do good a lot of the time, and it can help people, provided that it is truly altruistic. That said, I dislike corruption and fear-mongering in any form I see it in. Still, almost all of my family is religious, and a lot of my very close friends are as well, and my beliefs haven’t really changed the way we see each other. I don’t try to change anyone’s mind about their beliefs, and for the most part people don’t try to change mine. It works out fine. When someone of any belief tries to attack mine, that is they only time I really become defensive about it. Leave me alone, and I will leave you alone.

The minute you start telling me it is wrong to believe in whatever I believe in, no matter who you are (atheists and theists alike), THAT is when I get ready to tear you a new asshole. Otherwise we can get along just dandy~


TL;DR I am an atheist, but I am not an asshat about it. I don’t really care about what others believe either, as long as it doesn't hurt people. Atheists, Agnostics, and Theists, people from any belief can try use those beliefs to justify hurting others, and that is not okay, no matter who is doing it.


Also, these are just MY personal beliefs, and I don't claim to represent anyone else but myself. If you would like to know a little bit more about atheism, here are a couple of links:
Agnostic Atheist - Dictionary Definition
What is an Atheist? Who are Atheists?
Strong Atheism vs. Weak Atheism - What's the Difference Between Strong, Weak Atheism?
Defining Atheism: Disagreement Over the Definition of Atheism
Atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (I recommend wikiwalking through this page, because it is fun to see all the different types of beliefs and viewpoint, in a non-believing philosophy! Plus, you will learn just how BIG and how vast atheism really is. So many different types of atheism.)

(Also, I would check this out to see the difference between an atheist, an anti-theist, and an anti-theistic atheist)
Anti-theism:
Antitheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Atheism & Anti-Theism: What's the Difference? What is Anti-Theism? Are All Atheists Anti-Theists? Is Atheism Inherently Anti-Theistic?
What is an Antitheist? Who are Antitheists?

I have found that there is a lot of misconception about atheism. People tend to believe that all atheists are the same and that we all follow the same doctrine, when that is simply not the case. A major misconception is that all atheists are anti-religion, anti-theist, god-hating, angry people who strive to argue and put down anyone who is different from them. This is not true, and I hope that anyone who HAS encountered this type of person understands that they do not represent all of us, just as religious zealots do not represent every theist.


Anyway, sorry for the long post! I apologize for any confusing or wrong information, as it is crazy early and I haven't properly started my day yet :confused:
 

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Dont get offended by this - but saying you "feel" something isnt evidence for existence. People have delusions all the time and "feel" that they're real, when they're not.

I dont believe in god. And even if he did exist, why should I love him? Why should I love ANYONE just because im told to.

Fact of the matter is, since the beginning of recorded history there have been nearly 3000 "gods" recorded among different time periods. The god you believe in is the majority of cases a result of the time you've been born into, your family history and your geographical location. If you had been born in ancient greece you would be worshiping Zeus, had you been born in the middle east you'd likely be worshiping Mohammad. Had you been a viking you'd have worshiped the likes of Thor and Odin.

What's funny to me is that every person who believes in one particular god all believe THEY are right.

However, I am pretty certain you're ALL wrong. To the point where I would sell my soul to the so-called 'devil', im that certain.

I'm my own person and I dont, and would refuse to worship anyone or anything.



VVV Speaks for itself

View attachment 81032
I'm not trying to prove anything to you. :) Live and let live. Religion makes me a better person, as I imagine it does many people who don't get the message twisted.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Woof x_x
what I meant by god is that there's something there. Not some spiritual deity, but something. I just find it strange that they all connect, same rules and stuff. A person who traveled, extra terrestrials, how come they have the same rules?
Thats what I'm curious about ._.
Ancient texts mention a great flood around where the Sumerians lived and Noah (whatever time that was). But, how com Noah knew a flood was coming? It makes me curious ._.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I am an atheist. I personally chose not to believe in an Abrahamic God, or most Gods for that matter. It really depends on your definition of a “God”, but at any rate, in most cases I am an atheist. That is not to say that I don’t think that a God doesn’t exist for other people. Gods can be very really to others, and if other people chose to believe in a God, or Gods, that is fine. I don’t really care. I simply chose to opt out.


If I may point out, atheism is not an organized or structured belief. We do not fly under one flag. Atheism is a viewpoint, and it can differ from one person to another in large ways. There are the screaming, shouting, angry atheists that say “THERE IS NO GOD, YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS FOR BELIEVING IN ONE”, yes, but there are many more types than just that. Those, I believe are the more Anit-theistic ones. One can be an atheist and not anti-theistic. I am such. I’m something of an agnostic atheist. I have no proof that a God doesn’t exist, but even though I don’t, I still personally chose not to believe in one.


As for science….it doesn’t always correlate with atheism. Not all atheist take a scientific standpoint. This goes back to the thing about how atheism is not like a structured religion, and there is no guideline on how atheists as a whole operate or what they believe in.


Personally, I would say that science IS fucking awesome. I would like to say that it had relatively little to do with my beliefs though, and it didn’t impact it that much. Long before I even truly started to like science, I was already on my path of atheism. A lot of the time, science does reinforce some of the ideas I have about theism, but it didn’t spark or create them. They were already there. So, I was an atheist before science became a huge part of my life. As for others I have met that were on the science path, it varies. I have met people on both sides of the spectrum. I know many aspiring biologist, and chemists, and engineers that are people of faith, just as I know a lot of them who are agnostic or atheist.


Long story short, a lot of people use science as a catalyst of their faith, but I personally leave it out. The only time I really cite science in correlation with my beliefs is if someone else (usually a theists) brings it up, and then I use what I know to support my personal beliefs in the matter.


I don’t hate religion, or the notion of God, or anything like that. I really don’t care that much if I am honest. I find a lot of religious texts and doctrine to be interesting, and I've spent a share of my time reading about varies belief systems and religions. I think religion and faith can do good a lot of the time, and it can help people, provided that it is truly altruistic. That said, I dislike corruption and fear-mongering in any form I see it in. Still, almost all of my family is religious, and a lot of my very close friends are as well, and my beliefs haven’t really changed the way we see each other. I don’t try to change anyone’s mind about their beliefs, and for the most part people don’t try to change mine. It works out fine. When someone of any belief tries to attack mine, that is they only time I really become defensive about it. Leave me alone, and I will leave you alone.

The minute you start telling me it is wrong to believe in whatever I believe in, no matter who you are (atheists and theists alike), THAT is when I get ready to tear you a new asshole. Otherwise we can get along just dandy~


TL;DR I am an atheist, but I am not an asshat about it. I don’t really care about what others believe either, as long as it doesn't hurt people. Atheists, Agnostics, and Theists, people from any belief can try use those beliefs to justify hurting others, and that is not okay, no matter who is doing it.


Also, these are just MY personal beliefs, and I don't claim to represent anyone else but myself. If you would like to know a little bit more about atheism, here are a couple of links:
Agnostic Atheist - Dictionary Definition
What is an Atheist? Who are Atheists?
Strong Atheism vs. Weak Atheism - What's the Difference Between Strong, Weak Atheism?
Defining Atheism: Disagreement Over the Definition of Atheism
Atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (I recommend wikiwalking through this page, because it is fun to see all the different types of beliefs and viewpoint, in a non-believing philosophy! Plus, you will learn just how BIG and how vast atheism really is. So many different types of atheism.)

(Also, I would check this out to see the difference between an atheist, an anti-theist, and an anti-theistic atheist)
Anti-theism:
Antitheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Atheism & Anti-Theism: What's the Difference? What is Anti-Theism? Are All Atheists Anti-Theists? Is Atheism Inherently Anti-Theistic?
What is an Antitheist? Who are Antitheists?

I have found that there is a lot of misconception about atheism. People tend to believe that all atheists are the same and that we all follow the same doctrine, when that is simply not the case. A major misconception is that all atheists are anti-religion, anti-theist, god-hating, angry people who strive to argue and put down anyone who is different from them. This is not true, and I hope that anyone who HAS encountered this type of person understands that they do not represent all of us, just as religious zealots do not represent every theist.


Anyway, sorry for the long post! I apologize for any confusing or wrong information, as it is crazy early and I haven't properly started my day yet :confused:
guah xAx so long....
Yeah I know all that, I was in a hurry to make my point. >^> I'm more of a strong agnosting than the other two types of agnostics. I call the "THERE IS NO WAY -spiritual thing-" EXISTS strong atheists, but some atheist are like this too, but more calm. The strong ones are scary. I'm friends with ton of atheists, the ones that annoy me are the ones that go "YOU'RE AN IDIOT FOR BELEIVING SOEMTHIG YOU CAN'T SEE" I want to punch them in the throat.
And still, science really is awesome, the pope ha a masters in chemistry, he gets points for that >u> I see atheists as "just let me live my life without a spiritual thing in peace." People, just living their lives.
I STILL really want to punch the stron annoying ones in the throat though.
 

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Heavens★Demon;4049660 said:
Woof x_x
I just find it strange that they all connect, same rules and stuff. A person who traveled, extra terrestrials, how come they have the same rules?
.
Because how else would humanity survive? If there was no co-operation, we wouldnt. Anyone with a brain can figure that out, it doesnt take a 'god' to impose their rules on us.
A lot of animals are the same way. Elephants and Ants being two examples. We're all highly evolved creatures. That's what I believe anyway.


*edit*
if my response doesnt make much sense, ive probably not understood what you've said properly
 

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Heavens★Demon;4049690 said:
I STILL really want to punch the stron annoying ones in the throat though.
As do I with strong, militant believers.
 

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inb4 a shit load of butthurt PerC members...

There should be a disclaimer on the first page on this discussion/debate lol


Atheist btw. Religion has pretty much died out in a lot of europe now and is a pretty small minority in the UK now
 

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Heavens★Demon;4048617 said:
"their absolutely is no god" without enough proof. Heck, these two are the reason I'm agnostic. Theists go: there is god/gods! And atheist: THERE IS NO GOD/GODS!
I need proof to go to one side, I even defend both! It's so difficult trying to appeal both sides, and it's always a majority picking on a minority in the Internet fights. I always defend the minority.
Cool, so do you also think it's wrong for religious people to also say "THERE IS A GOD!!" when there's no proof?
 

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First of all "agnostic" is not mutually exclusive to being theist/atheist. Most atheists are agnostic, only very few of them would go so far as to say that they know for sure there are no gods. We don't need to make any claims of certainty, we just reject the theist's claim that there is one, burden of proof is on them so we need go no further.

And to most people who claim that they're not theist or atheist, and instead are agnostic....well, hate to break it to you, but you're probably an atheist as well. Just an agnostic atheist, as are most atheists. If you do not actively accept the claim that there is in fact a god, then you are an atheist. I don't see why so many people see that as a bad thing? So you're skeptical on such a claim and aren't so gullible to just believe it without any proper evidence or logical argument....that's a good thing.

Theists often get "butthurt" because they can't properly defend their beliefs once evidence and logical arguments come into play, so they try to play the victim card and accuse atheists of bullying or disrespecting them...not disrespecting them, just their beliefs...which are unsubstantiated by evidence or logic. It's due to this outcry that atheists/atheism gets such a bad rep here in the U.S., they will cry victim every time we try to maintain secularism in our government and claim that there is a "war on xmas", "war on xtianity" etc.


Also, remember....respect people, and respect their rights to have opinions/beliefs, however, we do not need to respect the actual opinions/beliefs. Ridiculous claims will be ridiculed, and if they can't stand up to such criticism, then there is probably something wrong with the claims in the first place.

Just be glad that we're finally in the information age where we can actually discuss these things without anybody being put to death for it. (Except for the middle east of course, where religion is still very much in power)
 

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Hmm....I'd say I'm a Deist. I'm sure someone had a hand in things at some point in time, be it God literally creating man from dirt, a giant turtle rising from the sea, or even extraterrestrial beings doing genetic experiments, but we've evolved and changed and grown on our own. Kind of like a clock. The maker winds it up and lets it do its own thing until it winds down and he has to step in to wind it up again. I come to this conclusion from the linking religion theories (Horus and Jesus, for example), as well as the evolution of the human race, history, mythology, and a healthy dose of creativity from my over-active imagination. Everything just clicks together, and if it isn't the "truth," then it would make for an amazing book series.

I do love debating some of my religious-zealot friends, and have been informed that I am going directly to hell upon my death (which is a rather un-Christian thing for them to say, considering the whole "judge not, lest ye be judged" thing). I have always been respectful in my debates. I don't attack their beliefs or call them stupid. I present my evidence, they counter with touchy-feely rehearsed scriptures, I counter again, and we go back and forth until they tell me to go to hell. I'm the bad guy because I can't accept their way of thinking....so they're the good guys because they won't accept mine?

The fact of the matter is that there are plenty of questions that remain unanswered. Some rely on religion to answer these questions, and that's well within their right to do so. Others rely on established evidence to develop their theories, and you know what? That's okay too. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

It isn't until one party starts ramming their beliefs/non-beliefs down the other party's throat that we have any problems. Is it really that hard to live and let live?

I do find it hilarious, though, how most atheists would make better Christians then most Christians do.
 

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Just came over from the INTP subforum, there's practically a warcry for atheists and agnostics there, so maybe I'd just put in my two cents for reasonable, respectful and logical discussion on the thread. Well, I definitely believe in God, although I hate organised religion. It might sound strange for an INTP but sometimes the more I see of nature, the more I am certain there's a god, out there, creating, designing everything. I see sea-urchins with their pentagonal body plan, I see termites with their mounds, I see birds and butterflies flocking and congregating without fail each year. And all this tells me: there must be a god out there. You can't have life without him, you can't have intelligence without him, you can't have the world without him. I used to be agnostic, but seeing nature has truly made me see god. By the way
Just be glad that we're finally in the information age where we can actually discuss these things without anybody being put to death for it. (Except for the middle east of course, where religion is still very much in power)
Political suicide is still very much a kind of death.
 
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