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Chatterbox, MOTM August 2013
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Gooo day ENTJs. I have a question for you.

I'm an INFP that loves to write. Right now I'm writing about a ENTJ antagonist/villain. I was wondering, of course, from a "stereotypical" level:

-Is there something abstract that scares you?.

I'll explain... I want to establish inside this character some abstract fears (Not just fear to die... that would be too simple) so can be used as platform for his/her actions. The goal with this question is to make this character more "grounded", "relatable".

Let me start with an example: The only thing that scares me the most is to found myself completely alone. Not having someone to rely on and share a bond (connection).

Thank you.


P.D: Yeah... that was too "emotional". You don't have to go that far XD.
I agree with @NT the DC ‘s post above about looking more to the Enneagram.

I’m and 8w9 and probably what I abstractly fear most is that feeling that someone is trying to control me. I really don’t like that.

8w9 tends to be more diplomatic than 8w7 (who tend to be a bit more outwardly aggressive), but we both have power and control issues that we have to work through.

In my own observations being around other Type 8s:

8w7 tends to shoot first and ask questions later (they have more “fiery”, quick tempered personalities— so they’re typically more aggressive and well ... loud, so they’ll get in your face if they feel threatened.)

8w9 tends to hear you out and ask questions ... and then probably shoot you. (we’re more diplomatic and laid-back, but when pushed, rather than yell, will shoot you a look that will make the hair on the back of your neck stand up. Icy cold, rather than fiery)


8w7 is more stereotypically the guy who reacts quickly, publicly, and decisively to quell any uprising. (wants to be in control)

8w9 is more stereotypically the ice princess who picks her moment and privately shivs you when you’re not expecting it. (doesn’t want to be controlled by others)

Either way, we don’t like it when people try to control us. So our biggest fear would probably be that lack of control felt when someone tries to get the best of us.
 

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An ENTJ is supposedly the INTPs ideal match, and vice versa.

But as an INTP, it has slowly become apparent that I have avoided ENTJs both casually and in looking for a romantic relationship.

I sense that it is partly because I am afraid that it will fail. And because I would have a deeper, more meaningful relationship with them - it would be extra hurtful.

Part of this fear is that I am not actually quite sure as to WHO ENTJs are. I haven't met enough to get to know them.

My aunt is an ENTJ, she is very 'grande', but we have never managed to get close enough to get to experiment because I just seal up like a walnut when she's around.

I also worked with an ENTJ and we did get to know each other a little, but not enough. He was not liked in the company we worked for. Probably because they were mostly 'S' types (who can be just downright awful). He claimed in front of everyone one day that in all his time here, I was his favourite. We had a very strong bond, but I felt like I was repressing myself. Maybe it was fear that I wouldn't be good enough.

There was only one ENTJ in romantic relations. He was a Business student in a very prestigious business university. We had so much to talk about, but it was mostly intellectual, unlike my relationship with either of the other two ENTJs. I even sent him Snapchats of political theory books, which he loved. But ultimately with him, it was very clear that I was afraid that I was not going to be good enough. So I avoided him and he disappeared. Thinking about it now, if he was around again right now, I still wouldn't have the courage to overcome that fear of failure.

What do I do?
Something that might help you. ENTJs are super mush with our romantic partners with few expectations, as long as our partners meet our very few needs. We rarely ask for anything but when we do, we expect that because of our few demands, that our partners will meet them. IF you're the type of INTP that's resistant to any requests...because...your life, et al...even at the expense of your partner, then you're not likely compatible with ENTJs. But if you're the type of INTP who has a healthy grasp of Theory of Mind, then ENTJs might be a solid fit.

My husband's a healthy INTP. We're hand in glove. My prior partner was an unhealthy INTP who turned out to be on the spectrum which we didn't know at the time but it helps to explain his 'extremely selfish' actions.
 

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So I’m wondering if I am an ENTJ rather than an INTJ. It’s a recurring thought that has intensified over the past couple of years. I created a type me thread here. Should anyone be bored enough to care; ENTJ input would be valuable.
 

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King of Seduction
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So I’m wondering if I am an ENTJ rather than an INTJ. It’s a recurring thought that has intensified over the past couple of years. I created a type me thread here. Should anyone be bored enough to care; ENTJ input would be valuable.
I would say ExTJ.
However you do strike me as having a lot of "Sensor" traits.
You claimed to dislike detail however you noted you're very organized and enjoy organizing; while being organized and being detail oriented are not exactly the same - they are related.
Perhaps what you mean you dislike is focusing on unimportant minutia which has no logical context.
Seems hard to be highly organized if you despise detail, it's at the very least task oriented.
I would say given how you react to stress you're more Te, Te tends to be the type to focus on correcting their external environment in order to feel control. You said you speak and think at the same time which says you talk before you think to me lol.
Also you noted things like enjoying raves in your youth, running, traveling, being a kinesthetic learner, practical, quick to take action, which are all very senor in nature.

I'd lean towards ESTJ, but xxTJ are your strongest traits (Te).
 

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Input appreciated but ESTJ is so far off the mark for me. Organised and detail oriented are not the same thing. I live with a Si dom and have several other people with strong Si around me - I’m not one of them.
Our perception is always relative, which is why there are so many mistypes.
People think that they're introverted because they are surrounded by strong extroverts, etc.
Being around strong Si is going to make you seem less like an Si- it's akin to saying I am not Ni because I am around INTJ, INFJ, or hell maybe even a ESFJ who is a little more sensor than I am.

What is the difference between being detail oriented and organized to you and why does that distinction lead you to conclude it's far off the mark? I find ESTJ and ENTJ are very alike as they both lead with Te, seems like one of the more common mistypes to me as everyone wants to be an intuitive for some reason. Again you know yourself better than I ever would, but I am interested in your thought process on this one.
 

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Our perception is always relative, which is why there are so many mistypes.
People think that they're introverted because they are surrounded by strong extroverts, etc.
Being around strong Si is going to make you seem less like an Si- it's akin to saying I am not Ni because I am around INTJ, INFJ, or hell maybe even a ESFJ who is a little more sensor than I am.

What is the difference between being detail oriented and organized to you and why does that distinction lead you to conclude it's far off the mark? I find ESTJ and ENTJ are very alike as they both lead with Te, seems like one of the more common mistypes to me as everyone wants to be an intuitive for some reason. Again you know yourself better than I ever would, but I am interested in your thought process on this one.
I'm not in doubt of the functions I use, I was seeking input on what function leads. Ni/Se and Te/Fi have always been the functions I've tested and I have no reason to doubt that outcome.

And putting the being around strong SI into context; I've also grown up with an ESFJ/INTP parenting duo, my brother is an ENTP and two of my closest friends are ENFP. I've got a handle on what this function looks like in different positions. It's not a function I use. I don't have a reason to -want- to be an intuitive. Striving to be a certain type is the silliest thing because you're essentially denying who you are.

then there's the fact that the ESTJ type description just doesn't match my personality at all.

Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

The interesting part is where I truly identified as an introvert for so many years. And then I had kids and I've progressively become more extraverted. They do say that motherhood brings about neurological changes on a similar scale as puberty does so I'm wondering if that's what has driven the change or if I simply do not have the time to introvert anymore (lol) (well.. half lol half serious.)
 

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Hi @birdsintrees,

In MBTI, Introversion/Extroversion defines if your first function is introverted or extroverted. As your first function always stays your first, the I/E axis never evolves with age. Most of the time though, extroversion is defined like this. (Seeking external physical/social world for stimulation.)

So one can be an ENTJ while being an introvert in (big five, or any other) definition. After all, one can "seek objective, factual information/rationale and functionality".... while looking at some statistics, alone on a desk. A-k-a, using Te while doing an "Introvert stuff".

If you hesitate between ENTJ/INTJ, try to seek out if you have more Ni-Se or Te-Fi dichotomy.

p.s : Most ExTJs I know don't look extroverted at all.
p.s 2 : I didn't read the whole topic but yes you can be an Extrovert while not liking people and the contrary. I'm INTP and scores 75th percentile in Extroversion in most Big Five Tests because I like seeking out social and physical stimulation. Also know a couple of ESTJ/INTP, with the INTP being the social-butterfly-networker and the ESTJ being the lone librarian. MBTI is only about the function stack.
 

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I've heard Tim Ferries is an ENTJ, and this clip sort of persuaded me, what do you guys think? Do you think this is something ENTJs deal with?

Starts at 5:06.
 

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King of Seduction
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I've heard Tim Ferries is an ENTJ, and this clip sort of persuaded me, what do you guys think? Do you think this is something ENTJs deal with?

Starts at 5:06.
What is said at 5:06 I don't feel like I've struggled with. Self love as it's described or "putting the oxygen mask on yourself before you can save others" has been a motto of mine since I was in early college. It's something that stuck with me. People have said that I'm selfish while others have said I am driven to obtain my goals. I do that because I seek to make myself accomplish goals and that will be sacrificed for the immediate happiness of others. If you don't help me obtain my objective you are hindering me.

Ultimately I feel, and have felt for a long time, that the bigger goal is to become so successful that I can afford to spend time helping others - especially those I care about and I know that getting stuck in a life pot hole will slow me down.
 

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I've heard Tim Ferries is an ENTJ, and this clip sort of persuaded me, what do you guys think? Do you think this is something ENTJs deal with?

Starts at 5:06.
I'm somewhat familiar with Tim Ferriss because I occasionally listen to his podcast interviews. I don't think what he said in the clip is an ENTJ thing, I think it has more to do with his struggle with depression in the past and his unhealthy type 1 tendencies (he's very self-critical and perfectionistic). He's Te-heavy and focused on optimization for sure (he has written books like "the 4-hour workweek" and "tools of titans"). He's either a Te-heavy INTJ or an introverted ENTJ because although he has strong Te, he also has an introverted demeanor. That said though, I kind of have a similar speaking style to him and I think he's more ENTJ because he also recently shifted his entire career focus from early-stage tech investing to psychedelic science because he believes psychedelics helped cure him of his depression so he wants to help raise funds for psychedelic research. So it's almost as if at his current age now, he has completely shifted his entire career focus because he has finally found his Fi passion.

@NT the DC Such a type 3 response. lol
 

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Hey you beautiful and badass commanders :D. I was wondering because you guys and girls tend to be rather direct, how can someone detect if a person is just simply toxic or actually tries to help you improve? (Not wanting to say ENTJ are toxic of course!)

For example if someone comes to me and says "Your food taste like crap" it's maybe true and he/she is being honest with me, but it doesn't help me at all how to improve myself for the next time. When I critic someone I always try to tell them, what to improve and what might help next time. And of course I try to be as nice as possible naturally but that's my sensitive INFP kind I suppose XD.
 

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Hey you beautiful and badass commanders :D. I was wondering because you guys and girls tend to be rather direct, how can someone detect if a person is just simply toxic or actually tries to help you improve? (Not wanting to say ENTJ are toxic of course!)

For example if someone comes to me and says "Your food taste like crap" it's maybe true and he/she is being honest with me, but it doesn't help me at all how to improve myself for the next time. When I critic someone I always try to tell them, what to improve and what might help next time. And of course I try to be as nice as possible naturally but that's my sensitive INFP kind I suppose XD.
There is constructive criticism and criticism because you don't like someone.
Telling someone their food tastes like crap would likely fall in the latter category.
 

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My ENTJ fd text me "Doing what?" all the time but I don't want to be rude and ask him.

So why keep asking the same question "Doing what?" all the time? He's bored? He's curious? He wants to know what everyone's doing all the time? Something else?
 

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My ENTJ fd text me "Doing what?" all the time but I don't want to be rude and ask him.

So why keep asking the same question "Doing what?" all the time? He's bored? He's curious? He wants to know what everyone's doing all the time? Something else?
Well, context matters. Otherwise your "ENTJ fd" is just being weird and creepy.
 

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I'm trying to understand how ENTJs make decisions quickly, and also why. As an INTP, a decision made quickly is simply terrifying unless it is a decision where all the information has already been gathered and it's just a matter of choosing. The reason I make decisions slowly is because I want to choose the best option, and to choose the best option I have to work out what the best option is, which takes time. But once I know, I know.
Do you often make a decision then go back on that when you gather more information?
 

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As an INTP, a decision made quickly is simply terrifying unless it is a decision where all the information has already been gathered and it's just a matter of choosing.
Until the ENTJs respond, just wanted to say I learned a lot from them after getting sick of analysis paralysis. I'm not ever going to be able to think like them, but I did learn how to implement things in a way that works for me:

  1. Let go of the pass/fail mentality. One bad choice =/= failure. A situation or circumstance takes many choices and actions to play out. Once you make one decision, things begin to flow like a rhythm game. You can make corrections as you go.
  2. There is no such thing has having gathered the perfect amount of information ever. Many years after making decisions for situations that have long since passed I'm still learning new info that would've been relevant then.
  3. Everything has a weird way of working out, even when mistakes are made.
  4. We INTPs can handle more improv than we give ourselves credit for. That intuitive ability is more reliable than you think. Maybe you can't quite tell *why* it's telling you to go a certain way at the start, but it's still a good compass. Eventually the reasons become clear.
  5. When working with people, communicate the changes in decisions when necessary. If someone gets butthurt, tell them new info came up. That's what happened. Even if you wait to make a decision this can still come up later. It's just part of decision-making. Roll with it. The world won't implode, I promise.
 

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I'm trying to understand how ENTJs make decisions quickly, and also why. As an INTP, a decision made quickly is simply terrifying unless it is a decision where all the information has already been gathered and it's just a matter of choosing. The reason I make decisions slowly is because I want to choose the best option, and to choose the best option I have to work out what the best option is, which takes time. But once I know, I know.
Do you often make a decision then go back on that when you gather more information?
I'll need to get going soon. So I'll keep the answer short, anyway:

How to make a decision quickly is simple, its a matter of weighting probabilities. What is most likely to happen.
If 2 cars are too close to each other on a slippery road and one in front needs to hit the breaks in panic. (e.g. animal walks out in front)
Chances are good there will be an accident one way or another. Sorta like that.

When nothing happens no progress) I get an itch to do something. (it really feels like an itch to me)
Maybe it is tert Se at play, idk. I had a period this year where progress was painstakingly slow, and it nearly drove me nuts. :laughing:

That said, if I do have no time constraints, I will gladly take more time to research and make it better then merely functional.
But I will still be irked to make a choice and to speed up the process I will "average" all the information I gather. Or even conduct experiments.

I would say on average I have not needed to go back on decisions I have made. Some corrections, tweaks, yes.
However as Battlelina says, adjusting or adapting your approach is quite a reasonable thing. And not a failure, IMO.
 
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