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I'm trying to understand how ENTJs make decisions quickly, and also why. As an INTP, a decision made quickly is simply terrifying unless it is a decision where all the information has already been gathered and it's just a matter of choosing. The reason I make decisions slowly is because I want to choose the best option, and to choose the best option I have to work out what the best option is, which takes time. But once I know, I know.
Do you often make a decision then go back on that when you gather more information?
My husband is an INTP, and we've encountered the same issue. Frankly, if there's a problem I'm dealing with, I'd rather make a decision that's 98% right in time to actually implement it, than come up with what would've been the absolutely perfect decision, three months too late to do anything about it.

He's very bright, but back when we were in our early twenties... I remember telling him in a moment of frustration that the minute any problem demanded a quick, practical solution rather than abstract wool-gathering, it's like his IQ automatically dropped a good 50 points. LOL

He has improved in this over the years... it seemed more tied to the strength of his Fe than anything. (This makes sense in a way, given that this is his extroverted judging function. However, it still leaves me scratching my head, because I frankly cannot imagine "thinking" with Fe per se.) And I have improved re: tact in the intervening years... although my assessment re: his functional intelligence in such situations wasn't wrong. :p

You will never know all the information beforehand. Most of the time, you will not be able to determine the outcome of all the probabilities you face with 100% accuracy, either.

If you can, then what are you still sitting there reading for? Tell me what the winning numbers will be for the next Mega Millions jackpot ASAP! :tongue:

Lol... anyhow, I would describe it as the difference between planning and steering.

Planning is what one does before one begins... to decide on a course of action, to build contingencies for things which might prove troublesome, to allocate resources, to gather the needed supplies, to learn what information is necessary for satisfactory performance of the task... just in general, to get your shit together beforehand.

Steering is what one does in the thick of the fray, or in the midst of dealing with whatever problem is at hand. It's on the spot reasoning, backed up by a blend of instinct and intuition, and often bent towards improvement or troubleshooting.

Once you grow more confident in your ability to steer, not just plan, you will probably be happier in making decisions. Being confident of your ability to steer when necessary and still win through will help you worry about the occasional minor snag less.
 

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Two quick things:

1. It’s been a while since college, but I majored in Econ, so I don’t need the lecture on probability, and

2. I thought we were just having a casual conversation. Your original question was “how do ENTJs make decisions so quickly?”
So , I would answer it simply like this: We don’t get bogged down in Ti, and don’t try to put too fine of a point on everything (your rabbit hole on probability).

It's not that we won’t hear you out (go ahead , toss your thoughts into into the mix, all input is welcome), but if we deem it to be irrelevant, or unnecessary, or unworkable, then while the information maybe otherwise useful, it’s not useful to the decision at hand.

We’re not always right in our decisions, and if new information is presented, we re-evaluate, but until then that’s what were running with.
Actually if I recall correctly, someone started picking on my little offhand comment about not believing in probability. All I meant was, I don't believe in basing things off of chance when you can know for sure whether it will work or not. Then I went off on a tangent, which should have been expected being an INTP, cause it made me start thinking about random things. My point in the offhand comment was this: there are a lot of fields where people are succeeding and others are struggling and the main difference is that they're not leaving anything up to "chance"; they're seeing possible problems and doing something about them before they happen. If it can go wrong, why take the chance and do all you can to stop it from going wrong (because if it can, most likely under pressure it will fall apart)? But, anyway, I had fun rambling on in the previous post.
 
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My husband is an INTP, and we've encountered the same issue. Frankly, if there's a problem I'm dealing with, I'd rather make a decision that's 98% right in time to actually implement it, than come up with what would've been the absolutely perfect decision, three months too late to do anything about it.

He's very bright, but back when we were in our early twenties... I remember telling him in a moment of frustration that the minute any problem demanded a quick, practical solution rather than abstract wool-gathering, it's like his IQ automatically dropped a good 50 points. LOL

He has improved in this over the years... it seemed more tied to the strength of his Fe than anything. (This makes sense in a way, given that this is his extroverted judging function. However, it still leaves me scratching my head, because I frankly cannot imagine "thinking" with Fe per se.) And I have improved re: tact in the intervening years... although my assessment re: his functional intelligence in such situations wasn't wrong. :p

You will never know all the information beforehand. Most of the time, you will not be able to determine the outcome of all the probabilities you face with 100% accuracy, either.

If you can, then what are you still sitting there reading for? Tell me what the winning numbers will be for the next Mega Millions jackpot ASAP! :tongue:

Lol... anyhow, I would describe it as the difference between planning and steering.

Planning is what one does before one begins... to decide on a course of action, to build contingencies for things which might prove troublesome, to allocate resources, to gather the needed supplies, to learn what information is necessary for satisfactory performance of the task... just in general, to get your shit together beforehand.

Steering is what one does in the thick of the fray, or in the midst of dealing with whatever problem is at hand. It's on the spot reasoning, backed up by a blend of instinct and intuition, and often bent towards improvement or troubleshooting.

Once you grow more confident in your ability to steer, not just plan, you will probably be happier in making decisions. Being confident of your ability to steer when necessary and still win through will help you worry about the occasional minor snag less.
Great post, thanks.

I'm getting less confident in my ability to steer as I get older. Not more. The more I see the results of bad decisions or lack of planning and looking into the details, the more picky I get about making the right decisions. We don't need to have all the information, but when I take my time deciding I usually make far better decisions than when I don't take my time.

Unless it's a sushi train. Then I sit there forever and when I finally choose I end up with the worst dish. That's probably because I don't follow my gut; instead I'm just looking at all the possibilities. And in this scenario, it's a bad idea - I should follow my gut, then I would end up with the first nice dish of food that comes around. So I can understand your reasoning in things like sushi trains - but ulimately the consequences are pretty minor.

It seems like ENTJs view life like a sushi train.
 
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There is probably (heh, pun) some nice calculation for that. (conditional probability?)

But do you really need to calculate it, in order for it to be applicable in life?
I would say that is largely irrelevant for most. Approximations are very common for a reason; they simplify.
To be honest I've lost track of what we're even talking about.
 
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Chatterbox, MOTM August 2013
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Actually if I recall correctly, someone started picking on my little offhand comment about not believing in probability. All I meant was, I don't believe in basing things off of chance when you can know for sure whether it will work or not. Then I went off on a tangent, which should have been expected being an INTP, cause it made me start thinking about random things. My point in the offhand comment was this: there are a lot of fields where people are succeeding and others are struggling and the main difference is that they're not leaving anything up to "chance"; they're seeing possible problems and doing something about them before they happen. If it can go wrong, why take the chance and do all you can to stop it from going wrong (because if it can, most likely under pressure it will fall apart)? But, anyway, I had fun rambling on in the previous post.
I would point you back to the post by @Elistra where she says

Frankly, if there's a problem I'm dealing with, I'd rather make a decision that's 98% right in time to actually implement it, than come up with what would've been the absolutely perfect decision, three months too late to do anything about it.
You’re never going to be able to know EVERYTHING that could go wrong. It’s likely never going to be perfect. Sometimes, outside factors that you haven’t considered or were unforeseen can affect the outcome (you don’t know what you don’t know) or more colloquially put, “shit happens” :Smilies1:

I would say that what you are describing, by most, would be considered failure (not getting it right the first time). We had a thread here a few years ago where we discussed “failure” . I posted this from a TedTalk style presentation I gave when I was a corporate team trainer. I hope it gives you some insight into the way I/we think:

I don't identify with failure; not at all. That is more about accepting that you've failed and overcoming it. That makes no sense to my way of thinking ... the conclusion is wrong because the premise is faulty.


I don't equate not being successful at something I attempt with failing. It has no negative connotation for me. It's not something that has to be overcome - it's not a bad thing. Every time I "fail", it just means I'm one step closer to the right answer. I've eliminated a possibility. There is no doubt in my mind that I will ultimately succeed.


My motto is "Think bigger. Do more." Because I'm not afraid to fail, I go big. I'm not always right the first time, but it doesn't slow me down. I can see in my mind how something should be. I'm focused on the end result. It's just a question of plotting the strategy of how to get there. "Failing" doesn't mean the idea isn't sound, it just means that the approach was wrong. There is always a "plan B" (C,D ...).


I think that feeling of shame and vulnerability and fear of failure is more about how one thinks others see them, and letting that matter. It's about wanting to be accepted, and wanting to fit in. Wanting to not be seen as a "failure". That doesn't work with me. It doesn't matter to me if you think I'm wrong. It doesn't matter to me what you think, at all. And it certainly doesn't matter to me that you define it as failure.


I think more like this:


“Champions know that success is inevitable; that there is no such thing as failure, only feedback. They know that the best way to forecast the future is to create it.” Michael J Gelb


"Failure is not the opposite of success, it's part of the success." Arianna Huffington
 
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I am in a serious relationship with an ENTJ and we get along really well and I think he loves me, but sometimes we "fight" about sex or intimacy. It's not really fighting, but more him confronting me like he's the police and I am a perpetrator. I refuse to play this game and he will just get mad and leave. Last night I snapped for the first time... He began comparing me to his ex girlfriends and I told him if that's what he wants so badly then he should go and try to get back together with them. He did not like that. He said he doesn't like how I "push him away" during these types of arguments. I felt really upset at him comparing me to them. I left the room right away and took a shower. He sat alone in my living room. I tried to sit with him and talk it through, but it got to the point where I told him if our relationship was not meeting his standard I would not stop him from moving on and finding the right person. He was confused by this and said something like he didn't need sex to be happy. I didn't know how to fix the problem and he said he didn't either. I left the room to go fold my clothes, he went and did my dishes and I thought he might've been crying, too and he came in my room to tell me he was going home and I let him out. He didn't text me all day today only to tell me he's thinking, not ghosting me in case I was wondering. I said to take as much time as he needs. I see now that he's really insecure about certain things. I think he's deciding whether to break up with me or not at this time.
 

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I am in a serious relationship with an ENTJ and we get along really well and I think he loves me, but sometimes we "fight" about sex or intimacy. It's not really fighting, but more him confronting me like he's the police and I am a perpetrator. I refuse to play this game and he will just get mad and leave. Last night I snapped for the first time... He began comparing me to his ex girlfriends and I told him if that's what he wants so badly then he should go and try to get back together with them. He did not like that. He said he doesn't like how I "push him away" during these types of arguments. I felt really upset at him comparing me to them. I left the room right away and took a shower. He sat alone in my living room. I tried to sit with him and talk it through, but it got to the point where I told him if our relationship was not meeting his standard I would not stop him from moving on and finding the right person. He was confused by this and said something like he didn't need sex to be happy. I didn't know how to fix the problem and he said he didn't either. I left the room to go fold my clothes, he went and did my dishes and I thought he might've been crying, too and he came in my room to tell me he was going home and I let him out. He didn't text me all day today only to tell me he's thinking, not ghosting me in case I was wondering. I said to take as much time as he needs. I see now that he's really insecure about certain things. I think he's deciding whether to break up with me or not at this time.
Not sure what the question is. But perhaps this is his very clunky attempts at explaining what he wants/likes in bed, etc.
May sound weird, but I suggest you two talk about likes/dislikes in a casual manner. If possible.
 
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I'm 25 and at this age, I've been constantly evolving. I've been learning new things, seeing how some beliefs and old ways do not work to my advantage hence I am also testing new ways and principles.

With this evolution is changed. I've changed to a person I no longer know. As I try to get to know her, she still constantly changes. I like the new me but also miss the old. I feel like I haven't been myself lately.

There are still changes I want to go through so I can be optimal and achieving my goals. Now the forked road is across me. Should I go back to the old me, should I live with the present me, or do I continue changing cos definitely I am still not where I want to be.

The major changes I have gone through are: Silence my kindness because I have to be smart (not kind in my dealings), be more selfish (this is how I can get what I want sometimes and I am inclined to allowing myself to lose for people I care about to win), should I keep feeling entitled because this is how I believe I deserve the things I would like to have?

Anyway I could go on but I was just wondering if you could relate to what I said and what you did with this confusion. Thank you.
 

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Not sure what the question is. But perhaps this is his very clunky attempts at explaining what he wants/likes in bed, etc.
May sound weird, but I suggest you two talk about likes/dislikes in a casual manner. If possible.
I realized I asked this in the wrong place, but thanks this was the right advice. We has a talk and it went reasonably well.
 

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I'm 25 and at this age, I've been constantly evolving. I've been learning new things, seeing how some beliefs and old ways do not work to my advantage hence I am also testing new ways and principles.

With this evolution is changed. I've changed to a person I no longer know. As I try to get to know her, she still constantly changes. I like the new me but also miss the old. I feel like I haven't been myself lately.

There are still changes I want to go through so I can be optimal and achieving my goals. Now the forked road is across me. Should I go back to the old me, should I live with the present me, or do I continue changing cos definitely I am still not where I want to be.

The major changes I have gone through are: Silence my kindness because I have to be smart (not kind in my dealings), be more selfish (this is how I can get what I want sometimes and I am inclined to allowing myself to lose for people I care about to win), should I keep feeling entitled because this is how I believe I deserve the things I would like to have?

Anyway I could go on but I was just wondering if you could relate to what I said and what you did with this confusion. Thank you.
I can't say I do relate to the extent that I feel like I've changed. Don't get me wrong, I have, it's just more so I don't give it further thought.
Just the natural progression of things. I personally however feel a certain dislike for feelings of entitlement.
You might still get things you want without it, depending on environmental factors, of course.
 
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Chatterbox, MOTM August 2013
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I'm 25 and at this age, I've been constantly evolving. I've been learning new things, seeing how some beliefs and old ways do not work to my advantage hence I am also testing new ways and principles.

With this evolution is changed. I've changed to a person I no longer know. As I try to get to know her, she still constantly changes. I like the new me but also miss the old. I feel like I haven't been myself lately.

There are still changes I want to go through so I can be optimal and achieving my goals. Now the forked road is across me. Should I go back to the old me, should I live with the present me, or do I continue changing cos definitely I am still not where I want to be.

The major changes I have gone through are: Silence my kindness because I have to be smart (not kind in my dealings), be more selfish (this is how I can get what I want sometimes and I am inclined to allowing myself to lose for people I care about to win), should I keep feeling entitled because this is how I believe I deserve the things I would like to have?

Anyway I could go on but I was just wondering if you could relate to what I said and what you did with this confusion. Thank you.
Don’t think of them as changes; realize that they are choices. I love this quote from Maya Angelou:
”Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”

Trust your instincts. That little voice in the back of your head is trying to tell you something. Listen. If something isn’t working, figure out where your error in thinking was and correct your behavior.

I tend to have a positive outlook, even in cases where others see hopelessness. I look at everything being a learning experience. No matter how bad the situation, you just learned something. That lesson will help you make better choices in the future. We all struggle with figuring out exactly what we believe in, what’s worth fighting for, and which behaviors we should change or let go of. It gets easier, because with that experience comes confidence in your choices. Don’t be afraid to make choices. Learn from them.


Stand your ground when you know you are right.
Ask questions when you are unsure.
Apologize when you are wrong.
(that’s a MsBoss[Jolly]Pants-ism):wink:


 
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I'm 25 and at this age, I've been constantly evolving. I've been learning new things, seeing how some beliefs and old ways do not work to my advantage hence I am also testing new ways and principles.

With this evolution is changed. I've changed to a person I no longer know. As I try to get to know her, she still constantly changes. I like the new me but also miss the old. I feel like I haven't been myself lately.

There are still changes I want to go through so I can be optimal and achieving my goals. Now the forked road is across me. Should I go back to the old me, should I live with the present me, or do I continue changing cos definitely I am still not where I want to be.

The major changes I have gone through are: Silence my kindness because I have to be smart (not kind in my dealings), be more selfish (this is how I can get what I want sometimes and I am inclined to allowing myself to lose for people I care about to win), should I keep feeling entitled because this is how I believe I deserve the things I would like to have?

Anyway I could go on but I was just wondering if you could relate to what I said and what you did with this confusion. Thank you.
The present you is you. It also doesn't have to be one way or the other. Just know when to assert your boundaries and know when to be kind. This will be tomorrow's you.
 

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Would you describe yourself as a nerd?
 

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Chatterbox, MOTM August 2013
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Would you describe yourself as a nerd?
So the issue I see here is that there are multiple definitions.

No, not in the sense that I'm a "socially awkward intellectual" which is the first definition and what NT the DC pointed out above but yes in the sense that I "have an obsessive interest in something [especially in technology or in a particular technical field]" which is the second definition.
 

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1. Hypothetically, do y'all ever feel intimidated if your partner is more intelligent or knowledgeable than you?
2. Outside of a romantic context, do y'all ever feel intimidated? When and why?
 

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1. Hypothetically, do y'all ever feel intimidated if your partner is more intelligent or knowledgeable than you?
2. Outside of a romantic context, do y'all ever feel intimidated? When and why?
I had an instance where the female I liked was just one step ahead of me in life.
She was a year older and was initially more focused on what she was doing with her life.

She went to school to become an attorney. A year or so later I left to become a Chiro.
We reconnected afterwards and I thought perhaps we'd see if we clicked.

When we met again...
She still seemed further along in life than me at the time and I felt like in order for me to be an equal I needed to achieve more.
I would say now we're close to the same in terms of our success and confidence in our fields.
But as it turns out we now live in different cities and I have my gf.

I would say part of the reason I was "intimidated" was not because I felt she was more intelligent, capable, or knowledgeable but because I wasn't where I wanted to be in life and I didn't want to be seen as struggling by her and I didn't want to feel that way about myself. I felt unworthy of pursing her at the time. This might have to do with being a type 3 enneagram though.

It's kind of silly because when we first dated I was just a young college kid who lived with his mom and she never mentioned it was an issue. It was more my issue.

I've met many brilliant people, some with photographic memories and some people that worked in military think tanks. I wouldn't say I was intimidated is the word. It's more about respecting that there are extremely smart people out there that you can learn from. I love meeting brilliant people so it's not like I'd shy away from them, I'd want to pick their brains.
 

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1. Hypothetically, do y'all ever feel intimidated if your partner is more intelligent or knowledgeable than you?
2. Outside of a romantic context, do y'all ever feel intimidated? When and why?
Short answer: No. At least not yet.
Long Answer: For me intimidation is not about the capacity of what is in front of me, but rather it is about my own capacity.
Hypothetically; I'd feel intimidated if I weren't attribute enough to do something.

Here, <something> could be "achieving a healthy relationship" or "buying ice cream";
And, <attribute> could be "knowledgeable" or "intelligent" etc

And the answer is no because after a certain threshold most attributes lose value.

If you want to buy a scoop of ice cream, 5 thousand dollars and 5 million dollars wont have much of a difference. Now if you want to buy a helipad, then there is a huge difference.

For a romantic relationship, 140 and 210 IQ are practically very close to each other as they are both over the threshold. If I wanted to discuss quantum mathematics, then there would be a huge difference and I'd feel intimidated.
 

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Chatterbox, MOTM August 2013
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1. Hypothetically, do y'all ever feel intimidated if your partner is more intelligent or knowledgeable than you?
2. Outside of a romantic context, do y'all ever feel intimidated? When and why?
I don’t feel intimidated around some who is more intelligent or knowledgeable. I want to learn from them. I see them as an asset. The more of what they know or have learned that they can impart to me, the better.

The feeling of intimidation is rooted not in the measure of achievement of others, but rather in one's own self-doubt and lack of confidence in one’s OWN abilities. Everyone has a unique mixture strengths and weaknesses. The key is to measure your achievements against your own potential, not that of others, and believe in your ability to succeed.

I love the last line of “Lose Yourself”. Short and to the point, and reveals his own self-confidence and refusal to be intimidated by anyone or anything:

“You can do anything you set your mind to, man.” — Marshall Mathers (Eminem)

Couldn’t agree more.
 
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