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Well you're guilty of projection, I'm not picking an argument, I was seeking clarification & expressing my skepticism at this proposed 8 3w4 model. (which I would like to hear more about)

Wtf do you call this, haha, (behavior, such as you just demonstrated, is commonly frowned upon elsewhere in regards to handling 'noobs').

An INTP's opinion is alway's open to change. Appeals to 'authority' and social status fall on deaf ears however. I could understand your POV better if I had just come in and said such without explaining a valid reason, my reason is laid out.
Do I look like an Fe user to you? :dry:

Coming in and telling someone they're mistyped is unnecessarily argumentative. My advice? Stop chucking your labels around like they mean something. They don't. I'd guess you're mistyped yourself, or at the very least unhealthy.

Let me be blunt. Your tone comes off as abrasive, aggressive, argumentative, self-justified, and unlikeable. I'm not saying you are as a person, but that is how you are portraying yourself. Be aware of that and fix it. I'd guess you're 18. I would say younger but you mentioned what I believe is an undergrad major. You have a few more years to screw up before your mistakes start being permanent. I would start with your image.
 

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Chatterbox, MOTM August 2013
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An INTP's opinion is alway's open to change. Appeals to 'authority' and social status fall on deaf ears however. I could understand your POV better if I had just come in and said such without explaining a valid reason, my reason is laid out.
Hmm, I'm already skeptical of your 'work in progress' model. I think you're a 3w4 who just think's they're an Eight. Three's can be confident and bold like's Eights. This is widely commented on by the Enneagram experts.
appeal to authority

I'm also a student of International Studies/Politics.
thanks for sharing your meaningless irrelevant status


Seriously, if you're going to try to nail someone for a making a fallacious argument, don't make a fallacious argument while doing it.
 

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Fuck me, can tell I've left the ranks of the ITNP's behind.

Do I look like an Fe user to you? :dry:

Coming in and telling someone they're mistyped is unnecessarily argumentative.
Perhaps you need your eye's checked, I never said that anyone had mistyped themselves, what I said was that the person didn't seem like an 8 to me, and my reasoning was to do with the offering of a foreign and incomplete model of Enneagram which I am naturally and initially going to skeptical of. To clarify, this is the first time I have been informed by an 8 that they are simultaneously another type as well as an 8. I think I'm well within my rights to be skeptical if I so wish.

I don't see what the problem here is - oh yea I do, and it's not mine.

My advice? Stop chucking your labels around like they mean something. They don't. I'd guess you're mistyped yourself, or at the very least unhealthy
.

Wow, so much butt hurt.

Let me be blunt.
Don't think I could stop you if I wanted to.

Your tone comes off as abrasive, aggressive, argumentative, self-justified, and unlikeable.
Just what I was about to say to you.

I'm not saying you are as a person, but that is how you are portraying yourself
.

Matter of opinion. Luckily, just as my opinion means shit to you, yours means shit to me.

Be aware of that and fix it.I'd guess you're 18.
You guess wrong, and if this is your idea of conflict resolution, I posit that it is you who are demonstrating the maturity of an 18 yr old.

I would say younger but you mentioned what I believe is an undergrad major. You have a few more years to screw up before your mistakes start being permanent. I would start with your image.
Ha, look at all the negativity just oozzzing from you.

Lecture some one who cares.
 

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Do I live and breathe being an 8? Do we get little armbands and get to be in a special club? Does the blood in your veins have the potency of ten Bengal tigers and you sweat energy drink?
I was asking a genuine question - and I get sarcasm in return..

You make it sound like to have 8 as your enneagram and control as your base motivation you need to have the aggression levels of a steroid abuser. You don't.

I've taken the tests, they've told me I'm a 3w4 and an 8. As someone looking to learn more about personality differences I accept the 3w4 and the 8, rather than drawing a giant red 8 on my forehead, and disregarding the other elements of my personality because I think it "sounds cool" to be an 8.

As I said earlier there are aspects of being an 8 that I don't like about myself. Being quick to anger, coming across as aggressive and forceful, being contrary, leaning into conflict, having people dislike or resent me for dominating them. I don't want to be the biggest barrier to my own achievements, and I get better outcomes if I mitigate these aspects of my personality when it is appropriate.

My reasoning for pointing out what I study, is my reason for doing so. My educational background is in sociology and politics, originally I was looking at research, but got frustrated with the bureaucracy and inability to instigate change, so I went back to study law. Again, incremental change is possible, but even large victories can be overridden by acts of parliament. So the only way to truly effect lasting change and have the most control is by being a policy-maker. Whenever I hit a ceiling, I butt my head against it, questioning authority and trying to force a change in order for me to achieve my own ends. I am never content to be told what to do, so I'm learning the language of power, so that I might eventually wield it (although the question will be in the private or public sphere as I am also reasonably achieved in business). I would argue that this is more indicative of being an 8 than trying to throw my weight around in petty day-to-day engagements.
Maust is right in that you're being unnecessarily argumentative.
I wasn't being argumentative (how many time's have I said that now?), I would expect other 8's to have at least have some appreciation for how our questioning may come across as blunt. Even now, I fail to see where the argument/agression is/was. I shared my opinion, and WHY I held that opinion in a non agressive or derogatory manner; the aggression has been perceived on the other end - and here I am clarrifying that.

You're not coming across as interested in other perspectives
That's because the conversation has barely begun, and I already have a pack of wolves snapping at my ancles over a misunderstanding.

and it seems like no matter what I tell you, you're going to disagree.
Haha, well, I must say this is my first time in ENTJ territory - and I am finding it slightly ammusing. Where you see absolutes, I see open ends. Relax.

Which is fine, but not something that I feel like wasting my time on.
The info you've shared here is progressing our initial discussion, and you aren't wasting your time. If you are certain that you're an 8, and if you a certain that your work in progress model has reason to be valid then I'm all ears.

Of course, I wanted to be certain that you were certain..

Back on topic.. In what way exactly do the 8 & 3w4 manifest themselves as results in the tests?
 

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The info you've shared here is progressing our initial discussion, and you aren't wasting your time. If you are certain that you're an 8, and if you a certain that your work in progress model has reason to be valid then I'm all ears.

Of course, I wanted to be certain that you were certain..

Back on topic.. In what way exactly do the 8 & 3w4 manifest themselves as results in the tests?
This is perhaps where you're misunderstanding.

Firstly, this isn't my model. When I say that I take the tests and get this result, I don't mean that I take multiple tests and get a different result every time, but rather that the one test gives me a series of results, the top two are tied for 3w4 and 8. I did a couple more at different junctions to clarify and came up with the same top results each time.

Surely this isn't a new concept? There are numerous people on these forums that have multiple enneagrams, and is a lot of discussion around interpreting your multiple enneagram result (example A, example B) (I'm sure you're capable of using the Google).

I don't know enough about enneagram types to say, but I wouldn't describe myself as a work-in-progress. I simply am who I am, I don't see myself as incomplete just because I don't adhere to a specific enneagram. I actually think it's quite wishy-washy, with most of the advice for clarifying type ambiguity being something along the lines of, what do you like more? Or, ask a friend what they think.

I find that different qualities manifest in different settings. At work and in my relationships, pure 8. In my studies, a 3.

My comparative for understanding is my extreme type 8 mother, and an ENTJ 3 that I know. I think that both are deeply unhealthy people and demonstrate the negative sides of each type, but I identify with the negative 8 more than the 3, simply because I don't get insecurity, and I'm not looking outside of myself for validation.
 

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Hmm, I'm already skeptical of your 'work in progress' model. I think you're a 3w4 who just think's they're an Eight. Three's can be confident and bold like's Eights. This is widely commented on by the Enneagram experts.
Thought my friend was an 8, he is actually 3w2. Agree with you partly. The distinction is that the 3w2 will want to hide his shame. Im not sure about 3w4 but I would guess they would not mind to be be wrong so much as the 2 wing.

My ESTP 3w2 friend will go all stupid Ti logic on me and make me get pissed of yelling at him to stop being such a pussy and accept shame and move on. He gets insulted in a way that he feel that I force my superiority onto him. He plays the status game, and if he is on the roll of getting respect from other people he will also get confident.

3= seeking validation
8= disregarding validation

From seeking validation and disrespecting validation comes authority. The latter is more forceful the former is slower.

Therefore the E3 and E8 are both possible but one takes the role of the Ego, the other functions as the Superego.

And for your sake, I would try to not be all Ti in this subforum. ENTJs often think of it as unnecessary and irritating.
 

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Chatterbox, MOTM August 2013
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Chatterbox, MOTM August 2013
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Was intended to be a platform where we could find some mutual ground.

I didn't set out to argue, you lot have just set out to make it that way.
Well, no.

Your manner of engagement was to question someone when they presented themselves as a type 8,
I think you're a 3w4 who just think's they're an Eight.
The fact that you are even entertaining 3w4 is enough to stop me from thinking that you're an 8.
proceed to lecture another member on what you thought was appropriate subforum etiquette,

Wtf do you call this, haha, (behavior, such as you just demonstrated, is commonly frowned upon elsewhere in regards to handling 'noobs').
take a potshot
Perhaps you need your eye's checked
call someone "butthurt" for turning your accusation of mistyping back on you,

Wow, so much butt hurt.
and then accuse us of being the ones who are argumentative
and I already have a pack of wolves snapping at my ancles
That doesn't sound like attempting to find mutual ground, more like trolling for an argument.

I'm the OP here, btw. Would appreciate it if you would throttle back on the aggression a bit and try to have a bit more of friendly dialog. Everyone is welcome here, but please keep in mind that this thread is intended to be a friendly, "hi, guys ... I have a question"-thread to encourage interaction between ENTJs and vistiors to our subforum - not a boxing match or a pissing contest. Thank you.
 

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As an ENTJ with questions about other ENTJs, is it more my relative ambiversion compared to other ENTJs, or do other ENTJs not mind sitting back and soaking up a conversation or discussion until something needs to be asserted (factor or idea being overlooked). I do tend to take charge in many situations, but in general it's more of a "quiet" take charge rather than a bull-in-the-China-shop kind of thing.
 

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What's one of your most awkward moments?
I cried in front of a man when we split up. It was awful to let him hear me sniffle and cry. Despite telling him I didn't want to talk about it, he kept trying to get me to, which furthered my humiliation because I just wanted to be left alone to lick my wounds. It took me awhile to forgive him for that, even longer to forgive myself.
 

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Chatterbox, MOTM August 2013
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As an ENTJ with questions about other ENTJs, is it more my relative ambiversion compared to other ENTJs, or do other ENTJs not mind sitting back and soaking up a conversation or discussion until something needs to be asserted (factor or idea being overlooked). I do tend to take charge in many situations, but in general it's more of a "quiet" take charge rather than a bull-in-the-China-shop kind of thing.
My response tends to depend on the situation.

I don't always feel the need to be the lead dog in the pack. As long as everything is moving along swimmingly, I'll hang back and watch someone else run the show. I might chime in with a comment, or correct an error, or suggest something, though.

One thing that will get me to take charge of the situation is when someone is bullying the other members of the group, being dismissive of others, or trying to run a self-centered agenda. It sets off my "sit down, Skippy, you ain't the alpha here" response.
 

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What is the meaning of life, both personally and universally? I see none but live life like their is a purpose. Am I in the minority here or what.
When I start asking myself questions like that is when I get messed up. I start doing that when I try to find a deeper, more gentle me as a challenge to growth. It's not a good challenge for an ENTJ to take, at least for me, and it doesn't last because it's too big a farce to keep up doing something I don't understand or particularly find a need to understand. When I first started coming to this forum, I was in a lot of turmoil over multiple changes in my life at once, some with possible huge consequences, and I was doing major juggling acts while attempting to "grow" from it all. When I'd take the enneagram test, it'd be different every time and all over the place. In retrospect, questioning the futile meaning of things was just that, futile. Certainly didn't get any personal growth out of it. Eff that.

Hunkered down and immersing myself into goal-oriented productivity and out of attempting to grow into a kinder, gentler ENTJ got me out of that funk. I've repeatedly tested 8 since, I am much happier envisioning possibilities and putting them into action. I simply needed to be back to work.
 

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My response tends to depend on the situation.

I don't always feel the need to be the lead dog in the pack. As long as everything is moving along swimmingly, I'll hang back and watch someone else run the show. I might chime in with a comment, or correct an error, or suggest something, though.

One thing that will get me to take charge of the situation is when someone is bullying the other members of the group, being dismissive of others, or trying to run a self-centered agenda. It sets off my "sit down, Skippy, you ain't the alpha here" response.
Or that need for "justice"?
 

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Chatterbox, MOTM August 2013
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Or that need for "justice"?
That word makes me uncomfortable. It's not about punishing the aggressor, more like championing the underdog(s).

An example of what I mean - I got called for jury duty, picked to hear a case. As soon as we get in the room, one guy (business suit, aggressive posture, big, booming voice) stands up and says something like, "we need to pick a foreman. It should be someone who has some experience with running the show. Someone who can take charge. Keep things rolling." Stares everyone down. Total bully. Everyone just sat there, stunned.

That. ^^ set off my "sit down, Skippy, you ain't the alpha" response.

I said, "No, Mr. (Whatever), not everyone here is as assertive as you. It's important that the person in charge should be someone who realizes that we're all equals here and that everyone has the right to speak their mind and be heard. To foster an envorinment where everyone can feel comfortable to speak freely without fear of intimidation."

 
yes, I got picked as foreperson


While I enjoyed hammering his testicles to his forehead, it wasn't about punishing him, more like me stepping up to lead the group and acknowledging their individual importance, giving them a chance to be heard.

If he wouldn't have stood up and Tarzan yodeled, I wouldn't have, unprompted, spoken up and volunteered to lead. I would have hung back.
 

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That word makes me uncomfortable. It's not about punishing the aggressor, more like championing the underdog(s).

An example of what I mean - I got called for jury duty, picked to hear a case. As soon as we get in the room, one guy (business suit, aggressive posture, big, booming voice) stands up and says something like, "we need to pick a foreman. It should be someone who has some experience with running the show. Someone who can take charge. Keep things rolling." Stares everyone down. Total bully. Everyone just sat there, stunned.

That. ^^ set off my "sit down, Skippy, you ain't the alpha" response.

I said, "No, Mr. (Whatever), not everyone here is as assertive as you. It's important that the person in charge should be someone who realizes that we're all equals here and that everyone has the right to speak their mind and be heard. To foster an envorinment where everyone can feel comfortable to speak freely without fear of intimidation."

 
yes, I got picked as foreperson


While I enjoyed hammering his testicles to his forehead, it wasn't about punishing him, more like me stepping up to lead the group and acknowledging their individual importance, giving them a chance to be heard.

If he wouldn't have stood up and Tarzan yodeled, I wouldn't have, unprompted, spoken up and volunteered to lead. I would have hung back.
I'm not uncomfortable with the word "justice," because I don't view it as vengeance, though it sometimes ends up putting down those who have no regard for it. I also tend to champion the underdog. Why am I not surprised you ended up the jury foreperson? :happy:

Reading through threads, catching up here of late, I saw a question on one about how ENTJs dealt with bullies. I was not bullied, nor was I a bully, but I became known for calling down bullies for other kids who were shy or fearful. The injustice of it always caught my anger much more than my fear. I was not afraid of them and considered it "just" to stick up for those being bullied.
 

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My response tends to depend on the situation.

I don't always feel the need to be the lead dog in the pack. As long as everything is moving along swimmingly, I'll hang back and watch someone else run the show. I might chime in with a comment, or correct an error, or suggest something, though.

One thing that will get me to take charge of the situation is when someone is bullying the other members of the group, being dismissive of others, or trying to run a self-centered agenda. It sets off my "sit down, Skippy, you ain't the alpha here" response.
Hmm, seems like we have similar philosophies. I usually don't want to take charge- being the pack leader is too much of a hassle and too draining. If there is someone else who is a capable leader, then I'm more than happy to just sit back and do what I'm supposed to do. The only times I ever took charge was when things were on the verge of falling apart and when someone had legitimate reasons to be unable to do their part in the group work. I never had to deal with wannabe alpha males, though.
 
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