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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
So I'd just like to say that I'm hoping to be challenged here with these examples so that I can develope a better understanding of where I have gone wrong.

To start of we'll go with Ni. I understand Ni to be a focus on the inner essence of things. When I think of this my mind goes to a painting where the artist had painted tuba's where elephant trunks are. Now this would be, to my understanding, high order Introverted intuition. It has devalued the Se objective experience of an elephants trunk and has produced a subjective symbolism of what the essence of a trunk is. Trunk(produces loud sound when blown into)= Tuba(produces loud sound when blown into). This is clearly subjective because an elephant trunk also grabs things, and is used to drink. I.e. the tuba symbol is an interpretation and therefore subjective.

Si on the other hand is focused on similar sensations and the subjective experience they produce. Looking back at the elphant example you might think "well they both produce sound so could the experience be similar and that kind of symbolism actually be Si too?" It could, but it's unlikely/significantly less likely than Ni because the sound of a tuba and the sound of an elephants trunk are not similar. An example of the Si-Ne axis could be when you interact with a golden retriever one day and you got him to do a trick. Then tomorrow you interact with a pitbul and for some reason the pitbulls behavior is really similar and your interaction with it feels like your interaction with the golden retriever. The Ne in you goes "I wonder if this dog could do the same trick." Ne can go much more extreme than this I promise you. Si is looking for the internal feeling that it's interaction with the environment is producing, not to be completely absorbed by it like Se, but to compare it to it's catalouge of internal sensations. I imagine Si users are incredibly good at knowing when something is making them even minutely bothered. I say this because imagine you are someone who pays attention to their internal state produced by interaction with their environment at all times. Now imagine you eat the same food for breakfast every morning, it should produce the same experience internally right? Well if something else in your life was wrong you may feel a slight level of stress or slight bitterness that would impact your internal state, meaning the current sensation doesn't match up with the catalouged sensation of what the daily breakfast should produce

Edit:decided to do a quick Fe statement while I'm at it. To my understanding, it is more likely for an Fe user to lie. The reason I say this is not because they are bad people(talking to those Fe users out there that have accepting lying as bad, and those Fi users who genuinely feel lying is a moral crime and against their internal code). The reason I say this is because Fe is about objective feeling. This is really nuanced because what does objective feeling even mean REALLY? I interpret objective feeling to mean the physical emotions of others. Almost what you see... but also what you expect to see as a result of actions. I imagine an Fe user deciding to steal something and feeling bad about it(mabye cause small amount of Fi or because generally society seen stealing as bad and they know that if others found out there would be disharmony that resulted). However, the minute what they steal was used to produce happiness for others they probably wouldn't feel bad about it anymore because it made everyone have a good time. Another scenario I imagine is Fe users giving white lies and not feeling bad about it because they know the other person feels good and no harm resulted from the lie anyway. High Fe might accept general political opinions like democrat and republican because they know that political disunity produces disharmony and they are against society having disharmony. Those same Fe users, however, may be against those two political opinions for the same reason(say hypothetically that they analyze the two political philosophies and determine that they will create disharmony inherently regardless of which one you choose)(forgive the political statement, it wasn't meant to bash democrats or republicans here).
 

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I'd describe the difference between Si and Ni as direction. Explanatory example: Both the Si and Ni user are asked for advice on a situation. They are given the present situation and asked to give advice for a future situation. The Si user will delve into all of their stored experiences, compare each of them to the present moment and provide an answer that synthesizes the core of all of the experiences in similar situations that the Si already had. The Si spends its time memorializing past experiences and pondering on them, this is what gives mature Si an air of wisdom and experience when they give you advice.

The Ni user on the other hand does not memorialize experiences but rather takes the core of the experience and abstracts it into building a vision of the future. Thus the Ni user will give advice based on how the present moment interacts with their future vision.

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So I'd just like to say that I'm hoping to be challenged here with these examples so that I can develope a better understanding of where I have gone wrong.
Hi there. Sorry to hijack all of your threads, but they're just so interesting. I hope a lot of others get in here too and share their viewpoints.
If you're more interested in other people's ideas, please tell me, I don't want to force myself on you in any way.

To start of we'll go with Ni. I understand Ni to be a focus on the inner essence of things. When I think of this my mind goes to a painting where the artist had painted tuba's where elephant trunks are. Now this would be, to my understanding, high order Introverted intuition. It has devalued the Se objective experience of an elephants trunk and has produced a subjective symbolism of what the essence of a trunk is. Trunk(produces loud sound when blown into)= Tuba(produces loud sound when blown into). This is clearly subjective because an elephant trunk also grabs things, and is used to drink. I.e. the tuba symbol is an interpretation and therefore subjective.
I agree, although Ni does more than just that. It connects ideas and tries to integrate them into one grand idea. The trouble here can be that that integration is often coloured by the other functions. Ni+Ti might focus on the underlying principles in an abstract sense, thinking about the ideas of sound waves and air pressure, while Ni+Te might focus on the goals, thinking more about the goals, like music as a means of communication and the nature of sound in that sense (or something, I don't have Te so I'm just guessing basically ;) )

In essence though you are right about what Ni does. It tries to take the highest level of abstraction for everything and tries to decouple it from all real-world meaning. Your example of the trunk also being a possible symbol for a hand or a straw is a great example for how Ni tends to develop tunnel-vision, where its own interpretation seems like the only valid one, while the others are discarded until there's a reason to integrate those again.

Si on the other hand is focused on similar sensations and the subjective experience they produce. Looking back at the elphant example you might think "well they both produce sound so could the experience be similar and that kind of symbolism actually be Si too?" It could, but it's unlikely/significantly less likely than Ni because the sound of a tuba and the sound of an elephants trunk are not similar. An example of the Si-Ne axis could be when you interact with a golden retriever one day and you got him to do a trick. Then tomorrow you interact with a pitbul and for some reason the pitbulls behavior is really similar and your interaction with it feels like your interaction with the golden retriever. The Ne in you goes "I wonder if this dog could do the same trick." Ne can go much more extreme than this I promise you. Si is looking for the internal feeling that it's interaction with the environment is producing, not to be completely absorbed by it like Se, but to compare it to it's catalouge of internal sensations. I imagine Si users are incredibly good at knowing when something is making them even minutely bothered. I say this because imagine you are someone who pays attention to their internal state produced by interaction with their environment at all times. Now imagine you eat the same food for breakfast every morning, it should produce the same experience internally right? Well if something else in your life was wrong you may feel a slight level of stress or slight bitterness that would impact your internal state, meaning the current sensation doesn't match up with the catalouged sensation of what the daily breakfast should produce
Sounds like a great analysis. I would love to hear an Si-user on of this matches their experience, but it definitely matches my idea of Si. (I can imagine it would be different for Si-doms to Si-terts though, so that might be relevant there?)
I'm still working on the ideas of how all of that works in practice. It can be hard in communication as Si-users tend to have a very clear image of how everything works, but have a bad time actually putting it into words (Si being an introverted process and all).

Edit:decided to do a quick Fe statement while I'm at it. To my understanding, it is more likely for an Fe user to lie. The reason I say this is not because they are bad people(talking to those Fe users out there that have accepting lying as bad, and those Fi users who genuinely feel lying is a moral crime and against their internal code). The reason I say this is because Fe is about objective feeling. This is really nuanced because what does objective feeling even mean REALLY? I interpret objective feeling to mean the physical emotions of others. Almost what you see... but also what you expect to see as a result of actions. I imagine an Fe user deciding to steal something and feeling bad about it(mabye cause small amount of Fi or because generally society seen stealing as bad and they know that if others found out there would be disharmony that resulted). However, the minute what they steal was used to produce happiness for others they probably wouldn't feel bad about it anymore because it made everyone have a good time. Another scenario I imagine is Fe users giving white lies and not feeling bad about it because they know the other person feels good and no harm resulted from the lie anyway. High Fe might accept general political opinions like democrat and republican because they know that political disunity produces disharmony and they are against society having disharmony. Those same Fe users, however, may be against those two political opinions for the same reason(say hypothetically that they analyze the two political philosophies and determine that they will create disharmony inherently regardless of which one you choose)(forgive the political statement, it wasn't meant to bash democrats or republicans here).
While the underlying ideas are solid, your described behaviour is only one possibility. Fi doesn't have any prescribed values, as they are all personal. An Fi-user that has a core value of protecting the user from harm might lie and manipulate all the time to do that.
What you describe with Fe is in broad strokes spot-on. It's basically the reason a lot of issues are so complicated. People, even Fe-users, look at things at a completely different level. One Fe-user might be focused on what a proposed law means for their mom, another might think about what it means for their community (chess club or something like that), yet another might think what it means for their country, and a last one might think about their children's children, even though they haven't been born yet...
That's what makes subjects like these so hard to discuss. Two Fe-users might have completely opposing opinions on something because they feel they represent different 'groups' on the issue.

In any case, you seem to be getting a great grasp on what the actual functions do. Keep up the good work. It's fun to see your reasonings and I think I'm actually starting to learn a bit from your perspectives on this. You have a great way of communicating ideas.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Hi there. Sorry to hijack all of your threads, but they're just so interesting. I hope a lot of others get in here too and share their viewpoints.
If you're more interested in other people's ideas, please tell me, I don't want to force myself on you in any way.



I agree, although Ni does more than just that. It connects ideas and tries to integrate them into one grand idea. The trouble here can be that that integration is often coloured by the other functions. Ni+Ti might focus on the underlying principles in an abstract sense, thinking about the ideas of sound waves and air pressure, while Ni+Te might focus on the goals, thinking more about the goals, like music as a means of communication and the nature of sound in that sense (or something, I don't have Te so I'm just guessing basically ;) )

In essence though you are right about what Ni does. It tries to take the highest level of abstraction for everything and tries to decouple it from all real-world meaning. Your example of the trunk also being a possible symbol for a hand or a straw is a great example for how Ni tends to develop tunnel-vision, where its own interpretation seems like the only valid one, while the others are discarded until there's a reason to integrate those again.



Sounds like a great analysis. I would love to hear an Si-user on of this matches their experience, but it definitely matches my idea of Si. (I can imagine it would be different for Si-doms to Si-terts though, so that might be relevant there?)
I'm still working on the ideas of how all of that works in practice. It can be hard in communication as Si-users tend to have a very clear image of how everything works, but have a bad time actually putting it into words (Si being an introverted process and all).



While the underlying ideas are solid, your described behaviour is only one possibility. Fi doesn't have any prescribed values, as they are all personal. An Fi-user that has a core value of protecting the user from harm might lie and manipulate all the time to do that.
What you describe with Fe is in broad strokes spot-on. It's basically the reason a lot of issues are so complicated. People, even Fe-users, look at things at a completely different level. One Fe-user might be focused on what a proposed law means for their mom, another might think about what it means for their community (chess club or something like that), yet another might think what it means for their country, and a last one might think about their children's children, even though they haven't been born yet...
That's what makes subjects like these so hard to discuss. Two Fe-users might have completely opposing opinions on something because they feel they represent different 'groups' on the issue.

In any case, you seem to be getting a great grasp on what the actual functions do. Keep up the good work. It's fun to see your reasonings and I think I'm actually starting to learn a bit from your perspectives on this. You have a great way of communicating ideas.
You're absolutely fine. I've been learning from you alot too so you high jacking my threads is actually nice. Plus you can learn more simply through the process of communicating between two people than you can just by simply reasoning through things yourself. Sum is greater than the parts essentially.

What is exactly do you mean by integrating ideas together? I can't exactly think of an example so mabye you have one?

Fe is really interesting because I think alot of people view it as a hivemind function where their person melds away and they become part of the mob mentality regardless of truth. I think this is wrong though. There are multiple levels where Fe can analyze, all contributing to what they believe and stand up for. They can have a person analysis level where they determine something as objectively the best despite what others say(their Ti helped them), or they can be hive minded and agree with everyone, or they can be anywhere in between. And like you mentioned, the source of who they are agreeing with can be radically different between one Fe belief and another. It's a completely devalued function when looking at political beliefs, probably because they see it as a function that "doesn't think" which is wrong.

Fi is also seen as stubborn, but if the Fi user values happiness in others than their behavior is going to be much more melded...less strict/crystallized.
 

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You're absolutely fine. I've been learning from you alot too so you high jacking my threads is actually nice. Plus you can learn more simply through the process of communicating between two people than you can just by simply reasoning through things yourself. Sum is greater than the parts essentially.

What is exactly do you mean by integrating ideas together? I can't exactly think of an example so mabye you have one?

Fe is really interesting because I think alot of people view it as a hivemind function where their person melds away and they become part of the mob mentality regardless of truth. I think this is wrong though. There are multiple levels where Fe can analyze, all contributing to what they believe and stand up for. They can have a person analysis level where they determine something as objectively the best despite what others say(their Ti helped them), or they can be hive minded and agree with everyone, or they can be anywhere in between. And like you mentioned, the source of who they are agreeing with can be radically different between one Fe belief and another. It's a completely devalued function when looking at political beliefs, probably because they see it as a function that "doesn't think" which is wrong.

Fi is also seen as stubborn, but if the Fi user values happiness in others than their behavior is going to be much more melded...less strict/crystallized.
The way I've interpreted Fe is not as a hive mind function but rather as an analogue to Te in the sense that it's interest is in the practical application of the feeling environment. Much like Te takes stock of the objective world and makes decisions on how to best use it, Fe takes stock of the emotional environment and determines how to best navigate it. Often this can be reflected in a sort of hive minded complacency if the Fe user is focused on harmony or if they're still young and have an underdeveloped/repressed Ti.

Ideally much like Te works to practically apply internal Fi values to the external world, Fe works to communicate internal Ti principles and ideas to an external audience. This simple theory is of course muddled by the perceiving functions but in general the judgement functions can't be used in isolation to judge a person, since judgement functions work in tandem to achieve different goals. Ti is just as individuating as Fi, and Fe is just as practically minded as Te.

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Discussion Starter #6
@Verizzles

Do you think you could describe the difference between intuition and Ti? The problem with Ti is that it is inherently conceptual and abstract, therefore it can often come off like intuition in general(focus on ideas and meanings beyond sensory stimuli).
 

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@Verizzles

Do you think you could describe the difference between intuition and Ti? The problem with Ti is that it is inherently conceptual and abstract, therefore it can often come off like intuition in general(focus on ideas and meanings beyond sensory stimuli).
To build up on what drengpkar said Ti is a judgement function, it in a sense makes decisions about truth and then integrates what it defines as true to make future decisions on what is true.

To compare a Ti dom to an Ni dom, Ti will analyze a subject to eventually decide whether it's right or not, Ni will ponder the implications of an idea without judging it as true/false.

They can look externally similar. Both will have a sort of worldview that they adhere to and can make accurate/poignant predictions. The difference will be in how well reasoned out vs how prophetic that prediction appears. The Ni will have more difficulty talking you through their thinking, they'll make their prediction and leave it at that in a sense, the Ti will build up their conclusion from explainable rational principles and will be easy to follow (even if they are wrong or you disagree).

Personal prediction: an Ni is more adaptable in its worldview because they're not as attached to the process of their decision, whereas if one of my principles was overturned I'd freak. I spent way too much time building my logic castle to calmly accept it's lack of validity. Lol.



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To build up on what drengpkar said Ti is a judgement function, it in a sense makes decisions about truth and then integrates what it defines as true to make future decisions on what is true.

To compare a Ti dom to an Ni dom, Ti will analyze a subject to eventually decide whether it's right or not, Ni will ponder the implications of an idea without judging it as true/false.

They can look externally similar. Both will have a sort of worldview that they adhere to and can make accurate/poignant predictions. The difference will be in how well reasoned out vs how prophetic that prediction appears. The Ni will have more difficulty talking you through their thinking, they'll make their prediction and leave it at that in a sense, the Ti will build up their conclusion from explainable rational principles and will be easy to follow (even if they are wrong or you disagree).

Personal prediction: an Ni is more adaptable in its worldview because they're not as attached to the process of their decision, whereas if one of my principles was overturned I'd freak. I spent way too much time building my logic castle to calmly accept it's lack of validity. Lol.



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Hmm. I guess I meant more of the subject material that each intuition would be focused on relative to Ti. How can I spot when I am using intuition rather than Ti since both would focus on concepts and abstractions. Sorry I'm stick between intp and istp because of this. It's endlessly frustrating, I half wish someone would just talk to me over curse or something just to get it straightened out once and for all. I'm in this wierd situation where my memory doesn't help me figure out anything more and I can't observe my own cognition because by observing your own cognition you're holding it back from acting as it normally does. It's paradoxical. You can't use your cognition to observe your cognition because then you know only part of your cognition is acting.
 

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Hmm. I guess I meant more of the subject material that each intuition would be focused on relative to Ti. How can I spot when I am using intuition rather than Ti since both would focus on concepts and abstractions. Sorry I'm stick between intp and istp because of this. It's endlessly frustrating, I half wish someone would just talk to me over curse or something just to get it straightened out once and for all. I'm in this wierd situation where my memory doesn't help me figure out anything more and I can't observe my own cognition because by observing your own cognition you're holding it back from acting as it normally does. It's paradoxical. You can't use your cognition to observe your cognition because then you know only part of your cognition is acting.
That's quite a dilemma (I experience it myself too). I guess I'd propose this possible determinant.

Can you fully explain reason out your theory in a way that's comprehensible to someone who is completely lost in regards to your theory. Basically can you explain your ideas in a logical way to a 5 year old? If yes, then likely Ti over Ni, because you're basing your criteria on a logical framework that you can treat. Your ideas don't just come out of thin air you logically structured them. Now this can also happen if both Ti and Ni are present but if that was the case your Se should be much more present to you than your Ni. The only time Ni and Ti would both be strong(without obvious strength of another external func) is in an unhealthy Ti/Ni user. Read up on Ni-Ti dom-tertiary loops and see if you exhibit those unhealthy behaviours. If so you will need to get healthy before being able to accurately determine your type.

To add: the proposed solution won't necessarily tell you anything with 100% certainty, since it's a behaviorist measure and the Jungian functions are not behaviorist ideas. Ultimately you'll have to live with some uncertainty and by honestly analyzing yourself and what you believe your thought process to be. MBTI/Jungian typology is much more a beautiful idea than one with perfect and succinct applications. Don't let it get you too down.

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Can you fully explain reason out your theory in a way that's comprehensible to someone who is completely lost in regards to your theory. Basically can you explain your ideas in a logical way to a 5 year old?
Wow, that's brilliant.

I've noticed that I'm extremely bad at comunicating my ideas. Only a subject that I'm intimately familiar with I can explain perfectly to anyone. I guess that's the point where I've used my Ti to actually understand the structure of the ideas.
 

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Wow, that's brilliant.

I've noticed that I'm extremely bad at comunicating my ideas. Only a subject that I'm intimately familiar with I can explain perfectly to anyone. I guess that's the point where I've used my Ti to actually understand the structure of the ideas.
i'm the exact same..
 

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Wow, that's brilliant.

I've noticed that I'm extremely bad at comunicating my ideas. Only a subject that I'm intimately familiar with I can explain perfectly to anyone. I guess that's the point where I've used my Ti to actually understand the structure of the ideas.
I'm glad you found that insightful. I can definitely see a dominant Ti user feeling that they're using Ni when they're integrating an idea into their system. But ultimately once it's integrated the logic should be clear, concise and easy to follow.

It's also very satisfying to then successfully share that idea. I think that's what the Ti-Fe axis develops from, a person feeling personal satisfaction at formulating and succinctly sharing ideas. It's also why Ti types tend to be more strict/formal with language than dom Ni types. Accurate definitions and frameworks are key to successfully and accurately communicating an idea, vs the more free associative approach to words that Ni types have.

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I'm glad you found that insightful. I can definitely see a dominant Ti user feeling that they're using Ni when they're integrating an idea into their system. But ultimately once it's integrated the logic should be clear, concise and easy to follow.

It's also very satisfying to then successfully share that idea. I think that's what the Ti-Fe axis develops from, a person feeling personal satisfaction at formulating and succinctly sharing ideas. It's also why Ti types tend to be more strict/formal with language than dom Ni types. Accurate definitions and frameworks are key to successfully and accurately communicating an idea, vs the more free associative approach to words that Ni types have.

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I appreciate you sharing your insights because I was pondering if I was actually an INTP because while I am Fe/Ti I feel I am more dispassionate than other FJs but I now realize I am much more free associative than I am more concerned with accuracy and definition

My Ti is present but my Ni at the end of the day rules over i'm seeing..
 

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To start of we'll go with Ni. I understand Ni to be a focus on the inner essence of things. When I think of this my mind goes to a painting where the artist had painted tuba's where elephant trunks are. Now this would be, to my understanding, high order Introverted intuition. It has devalued the Se objective experience of an elephants trunk and has produced a subjective symbolism of what the essence of a trunk is. Trunk(produces loud sound when blown into)= Tuba(produces loud sound when blown into). This is clearly subjective because an elephant trunk also grabs things, and is used to drink. I.e. the tuba symbol is an interpretation and therefore subjective.

Si on the other hand is focused on similar sensations and the subjective experience they produce. Looking back at the elphant example you might think "well they both produce sound so could the experience be similar and that kind of symbolism actually be Si too?" It could, but it's unlikely/significantly less likely than Ni because the sound of a tuba and the sound of an elephants trunk are not similar.
Your analysis is very close to defining the function/attitudes through their opposites. To bring a Se point of view to this, to compare elephants trunk to a tuba as the "essence" makes little sense, because it is so unrelated to what a trunk in reality is and is used for (and tbh this example borders the line of absurd to me just a bit). We see all the actual uses of a trunk and have no need to boil it down to just one thing, not to mention it being symbolic like that. Though I suppose we could define the different uses and view them separately that way.

Also the way you describe Si here is excellent. Si might be subjective but it is still sensing - its perceptions should be verifiable through comparable sensation. Only when Ne is too strong of an influence do Si types have genuinely distorted ideas about reality.
 
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