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Discussion Starter #1
I'm a guy, but I don't think that makes much of a difference since I think girls are pretty much in the same position here. I think Fours are underrated when it comes to their ability to attract people/a partner. And the people that underrate them the most are themselves. But a healthy Four may be the type who has it the easiest to be seen as attractive and/or get it with the opposite gender.

First, healthy image types have no shame, or at least are amazing at dealing healthily with shame, which is extremly helpful. Like at a party scenario image types are the ones most comfortable with enjoying themselves, vibing etc. Its really confident but at the same time emotionally expressive. I'd say those are the two main factors for attractiveness. Fours stick out because they curve around the main issue of image types - appearing shallow. Fours aren't always liked but they are almost never seen as boring, identityless, since this is the main thing they try to avoid. And in the cases Fours aren't liked its usually about how they give the impression of bring stuck up, uninterested, arrogant or something along those lines.

Fours problem is how they sabotage themselves.
But a healthy Four is so full of authentic, interesting charisma. Once you let go of the self sabotaging you clearly see how much you are appreciated actually.
The "paradox" is that Fours have so little interest in flirtying etc since it seems so meaningless. So they rarely are really aware of their own attractiveness. They are to self absorbed in their own victim story to put themselves out oft their position and see how much people actually fuck with them. Its like being good with girls/guys wouldn't fit in with they victimced self image they cultivate of themselves. It'd be to shallow and successful. But this is obviously unnecessarily damaging to your self esteem and in general distorting of the truth about your actually abilities and possibilities.
 

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I'm a guy, but I don't think that makes much of a difference since I think girls are pretty much in the same position here. I think Fours are underrated when it comes to their ability to attract people/a partner. And the people that underrate them the most are themselves. But a healthy Four may be the type who has it the easiest to be seen as attractive and/or get it with the opposite gender.

First, healthy image types have no shame, or at least are amazing at dealing healthily with shame, which is extremly helpful. Like at a party scenario image types are the ones most comfortable with enjoying themselves, vibing etc. Its really confident but at the same time emotionally expressive. I'd say those are the two main factors for attractiveness. Fours stick out because they curve around the main issue of image types - appearing shallow. Fours aren't always liked but they are almost never seen as boring, identityless, since this is the main thing they try to avoid. And in the cases Fours aren't liked its usually about how they give the impression of bring stuck up, uninterested, arrogant or something along those lines.

Fours problem is how they sabotage themselves.
But a healthy Four is so full of authentic, interesting charisma. Once you let go of the self sabotaging you clearly see how much you are appreciated actually.
The "paradox" is that Fours have so little interest in flirtying etc since it seems so meaningless. So they rarely are really aware of their own attractiveness. They are to self absorbed in their own victim story to put themselves out oft their position and see how much people actually fuck with them. Its like being good with girls/guys wouldn't fit in with they victimced self image they cultivate of themselves. It'd be to shallow and successful. But this is obviously unnecessarily damaging to your self esteem and in general distorting of the truth about your actually abilities and possibilities.
In my case it's more about performance as an INFP. If my abilities are not paid well in the Western world at least, then what security can I provide to a woman that would make her want to stick around? Alternatively, I could drop down two social classes and work in factories, do some odd jobs. There's no guarantee that I will have it easy with the people there, since I also need the intellectual stimulation, a person versed in my sort of culture (i.e. an educated girlfriend). Sometimes when I'm not paying attention they can elicit flirtation from me but then I feel insecure the 2nd time around because I feel I can't promise anything to a woman in this world that is so hard for me to keep up being competitive in. On the other hand, ExxJs are usually out of the question for they depend on many men for their success and influential position, men I am jealous of. If not that much, then still their extroversion includes bantering with men often enough to make me feel that whatever project idea she's selling, she's got her looks working also for her. Promise is the key idea here: what can you bring into a relationship to provide security for her? And mainly for yourself.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
In my case it's more about performance as an INFP. If my abilities are not paid well in the Western world at least, then what security can I provide to a woman that would make her want to stick around? Alternatively, I could drop down two social classes and work in factories, do some odd jobs. There's no guarantee that I will have it easy with the people there, since I also need the intellectual stimulation, a person versed in my sort of culture (i.e. an educated girlfriend). Sometimes when I'm not paying attention they can elicit flirtation from me but then I feel insecure the 2nd time around because I feel I can't promise anything to a woman in this world that is so hard for me to keep up being competitive in. On the other hand, ExxJs are usually out of the question for they depend on many men for their success and influential position, men I am jealous of. If not that much, then still their extroversion includes bantering with men often enough to make me feel that whatever project idea she's selling, she's got her looks working also for her. Promise is the key idea here: what can you bring into a relationship to provide security for her? And mainly for yourself.
Get a woman that doesn't need a man to give her secruity (outside of your love). Independent bitchez onleey
 

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I'm a guy, but I don't think that makes much of a difference since I think girls are pretty much in the same position here. I think Fours are underrated when it comes to their ability to attract people/a partner. And the people that underrate them the most are themselves. But a healthy Four may be the type who has it the easiest to be seen as attractive and/or get it with the opposite gender.

First, healthy image types have no shame, or at least are amazing at dealing healthily with shame, which is extremly helpful. Like at a party scenario image types are the ones most comfortable with enjoying themselves, vibing etc. Its really confident but at the same time emotionally expressive. I'd say those are the two main factors for attractiveness. Fours stick out because they curve around the main issue of image types - appearing shallow. Fours aren't always liked but they are almost never seen as boring, identityless, since this is the main thing they try to avoid. And in the cases Fours aren't liked its usually about how they give the impression of bring stuck up, uninterested, arrogant or something along those lines.

Fours problem is how they sabotage themselves.
But a healthy Four is so full of authentic, interesting charisma. Once you let go of the self sabotaging you clearly see how much you are appreciated actually.
The "paradox" is that Fours have so little interest in flirtying etc since it seems so meaningless. So they rarely are really aware of their own attractiveness. They are to self absorbed in their own victim story to put themselves out oft their position and see how much people actually fuck with them. Its like being good with girls/guys wouldn't fit in with they victimced self image they cultivate of themselves. It'd be to shallow and successful. But this is obviously unnecessarily damaging to your self esteem and in general distorting of the truth about your actually abilities and possibilities.
As far as coping with shame well, I guess "healthy" is the key word there. I'm awful at it but getting better with time.

I guess when you think about the fact that the 4's shame is not really tied to any actual element of reality, when we become resilient against that shame then yes we become almost shame-immune. Would love to reach that point.

Thanks for the positivity, it's cool to think other people could actually see 4s this way.
 

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Get a woman that doesn't need a man to give her secruity (outside of your love). Independent bitchez onleey
Haha, those girls might have "gotten" their man for themselves already.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Haha, those girls might have "gotten" their man for themselves already.
Thats actually unrealistic. I'd advise you (and every 4) to focus in your pros instead oft your cons. Its easy to victimize yourself as your pros beging valued less in this society, but thats just a self sabotaging perspective. There always enough people out that'll care for who you are and not for what you give to them.
 

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Thats actually unrealistic. I'd advise you (and every 4) to focus in your pros instead oft your cons. Its easy to victimize yourself as your pros beging valued less in this society, but thats just a self sabotaging perspective. There always enough people out that'll care for who you are and not for what you give to them.
I won't focus on anything you say I should be focusing on because my actual pros aren't what you are trying to define to me. My negativity is my asset. I'm victimizing myself because we live in a world of harsh competition where you can't have an emotionally intimate relationship because your true emotions involve your social insecurities and the true motivation of your courtship - i.e. earn social status among your peers. My asset is to be myself and not bend over what others thing how I should filter myself for the external world. People are there for me if there are there for me but if they aren't, and I did my best to reach out for them, then I'm sorry it's not only me who has to change. I want the people who will care for the real, not for that imagined person based on a cheap facade that a self-help guru told me to display for the world because ostensibly those were the "good" stuff I should have shown as opposed to the bad stuff I should have edited out. So if you don't mind I'll start my introduction with enlisting all the psychiatric labels I got from those half-baked country-side shrinks who for all their high expertise couldn't spot my narcissism as the longest enduring of all.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
because my actual pros aren't what you are trying to define to me
I didn't even specify (/define) what I meant with pros, that's obviously your job to know.
But I can tell you that "negativity is my asset" just comes off pretentious to me (or Fourish, lol). Nobodys victimizing you is my point. Nobody but your own shame and your relation with it is in the position to do so. As long as you define yourself as an outsider you'll be bound to the societal standards you try to free yourself from. Actually freeing yourself has the benefit of giving you a far clearer ("objektive") picture of your actual place.
Negativity is a vague term anyway, everybody is negative if you wanna go there. I'd say your asset is your authenticity rather.
 

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My wounding itself is with feeling desirable or not close enough, so I guess this is a rather nice post haha. I would like it to be true very much, but currently am in a very awful place. I have tried almost everything that I can think of. The heart of the issue that I have gotten to, I guess, is that whatever I am showing has to be ME. I need to identify it as myself. Otherwise the love or attraction won't mean anything. Nothing at all. And yeah, 4s can feel like they are being asked to not be themselves and put on a facade of good stuff - specially if the darkness is all you have ever known (in which case it wouldn't even be specific to 4s actually, you construct an identity around how you are seen; and how you are seen depends on how you behave).

I am trying to integrate my "bad" side in such a way that I can channel it and express it and not have to sacrifice it and put on a facade. But I am utterly hopeless about this. And completely depressed.
 

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How do I attract people if I feel like everyone runs away from me and perceives me as simply too much. And the cruel joke is that how they treat me makes me react in a way that only furthers how they treat me. Ultimately, my abandonment is inevitable.

The sad thing is I've never felt like I had a choice in whether I wanted someone to be my friend or to escalate things. I'm always dependent on others to take control of the relationship. Cause if I care about you, I always want to take it to that level. Guess then the problem is unreciprocated love and low self worth.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
How do I attract people if I feel like everyone runs away from me and perceives me as simply too much. And the cruel joke is that how they treat me makes me react in a way that only furthers how they treat me. Ultimately, my abandonment is inevitable.

The sad thing is I've never felt like I had a choice in whether I wanted someone to be my friend or to escalate things. I'm always dependent on others to take control of the relationship. Cause if I care about you, I always want to take it to that level. Guess then the problem is unreciprocated love and low self worth.
Thats so cute. I can only emphasize how much 4s sabotage themselves and struggle with seeing things outside their subjective (victim) story.
The way I perceive Fours (that I like) is always the same: I LOVE being around them and if they feel understood and appreciated, they seem to really enjoy the attention. But they always have this flair of being abonded about them. The point is, this is not a sign for your defectiveness or fundamental differentness, but it gives of the vibe of wanting to be left alone. Thats how I interpreted it when I was younger and less healthy/confident - almost like they feel better and don't really want you around. Nowadays I understand that no Fours minds the attention and may actually really want to be friends, as long as they feel like can truly connect with the other. My point is, that isn't just me. I noticed other people often felt similar towards them. Like I as a 6 always distort how things really are and how I'm really seen through projection, Fours do so by introjection. No one actually thinks you are defective in any way, the few that do aren't worth giving a fuck and I'm sure you don't, the only thing that makes you different is your belief in you being different. I dont if this sounds corny to you but it truly is so. Thats the thing you have to learn how to deal with.


I can tell you this ain't just a Four thing but something everybody can relate to. Relationships aren't easy. Maybe just focus and obsess less on the "level" of the relationship but just enjoy it for what it is and if you wanna take it 'nother level just do and they'll either fuck with it for don't. Just don't let shame make the decision for you.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
My wounding itself is with feeling desirable or not close enough, so I guess this is a rather nice post haha. I would like it to be true very much, but currently am in a very awful place. I have tried almost everything that I can think of. The heart of the issue that I have gotten to, I guess, is that whatever I am showing has to be ME. I need to identify it as myself. Otherwise the love or attraction won't mean anything. Nothing at all. And yeah, 4s can feel like they are being asked to not be themselves and put on a facade of good stuff - specially if the darkness is all you have ever known (in which case it wouldn't even be specific to 4s actually, you construct an identity around how you are seen; and how you are seen depends on how you behave).

I am trying to integrate my "bad" side in such a way that I can channel it and express it and not have to sacrifice it and put on a facade. But I am utterly hopeless about this. And completely depressed.
Hmmm, yea, I think the healthy Fours I know managed to do so. Integrating their bad side, so you don't feel like your real you is compromised but you also don't obsess over what you do and how its seen and sink into depression.
I dunno, just try to focus less on your ego ideal. You don't need that to be your unique you and beautiful. Your emotions don't define you, your Being does.
 

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This was nice, thank you.

I won't lie and say I don't have low self-confidence. But that's mostly a result of me doing a number of things to make myself more conventionally unattractive. I don't think I'm ugly -- in fact, many tell me I'm the opposite -- but I shaved my head, decided to not be skinny (I was, once, unhealthily) while not working to tone it out, and rarely wear makeup unless I'm going out. I also dress like a stereotypical lesbian (and I'm not gay. I just don't like to dress "feminine.") So if a guy is paying me attention, I do assume he's either thinking I make a cool friend who's a girl, or they think I'm easy because they figure "She's weird. She'll do me.")

I just avoid any guys who are conventionally attractive because I'm not the female version of that. And if they like me, it's probably some weird fetish/they aren't seeing me for me. I mostly just talk to weird guys who are also nice.
 
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