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Discussion Starter #1
I know that all people sub-consciously manipulate others, regardless of the means of communication, all the time. That's not what I have a problem with.


I have an aversion to the intentional and implicit manipulation others as well as an aversion to learning ways in which other's can be manipulated.
It seems to me that in most cases of implicit manipulation there is rarely a justifiable reason for doing so.




I know that it may seem that being unwilling to learn of these ways of manipulating people I am only allowing myself to be manipulated more easily.
Some people have an innate ability to manipulate others without the need to learn how. So I could reason that there's nothing wrong with attempting to level the playing field a bit by learning how to do it as well, but I won't.

Any opinions on the subject? Do you also have an aversion to being manipulative? Do you consider all/some forms of manipulation to be fair-game? Any opinions concerning the relation between MBTI and ability to manipulate, difficulty of being manipulated and aversion to being manipulative?
 

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Well actually I've been researching this lately and found that you don't have to be manipulative to trump the manipulator. You have to talk assertively, not passively or aggressively. Many if not most people "think" they talk assertively but they really don't, they get defensive or hurt in some way and act passive/aggressive.
First is to point out to the person the manipulation that they're doing and tell them you're not falling for it.
second is to try to stay away from the person.
but since you're talking about everyone....you can't necessarily stay away from everyone and be healthy for too long lol
um...hmm...
here's a few sites to help more on the subject.
The Manipulation Trap: Are you a victim? (this is for more serious types of manipulation i guess)
Subconscious Manipulation Tactics » Subconscious Security

EVERYONE manipulates. Some just are more obvious than others. ESFJ's and ENFJ's are known to be manipulative...but it's because the manipulation they use is very out in the open. and unhealthy ESFP's are manipulative too in this type of manipulation.

the famous "INFJ doorslamming", IS MANIPULATION.

I personally think manipulation is wrong wrong wrong. I didn't even know I used it until I researched more about manipulation. I realize that I do use subtle manipulation to try to bend things to go my way or to change people. Everyone does this in their own way, but it's nice to be aware of it within myself so I can change it.

If you're trying to invoke any type of emotional response that has the intention of benefiting you, it's manipulation.
Trying to get someone to feel guilty about doing something wrong to you is manipulation, trying to make someone angry, push their buttons, threaten, etc. All manipulation. Trying to make people do what you want basically.

I guess you can consider trying to get someone to feel good about themselves, positive and great can be manipulation? but I like to call that influencing people.
Is there a line between influencing and manipulating someone even when it's good feelings? yep. Think of the good-looking guy that makes you feel all great about yourself but is only using you for their gain.

You can influence for good or for bad.
Manipulation is a poor attempt to make people do what you want them to do, react the way you want them to react, and shaming someone into being someone their not.

Intuitives that have a problem with sensors, because they hate sensors for some reason and judge them because their sensors....that is a form of shame manipulation. Getting people to feel bad about what they are.

Thinkers annoyed with feelers and telling them to "suck it up." is a form of shame and manipulation.
Feelers annoyed with thinkers and saying to them "stop being so cold." is a form of shame and manipulation.

extroverts telling introverts "stop being so shy, go out and talk to people."
introverts resenting extroverts and talking on personality cafe how they dislike it so much and try to get extroverts to feel guilty because they "made" the introverts have a hard life.

etc etc.

Love people and let go of control over how they are, and then you'll see them grow exponentially.
 

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One low form of manipulation is waking up a person and then asking something when they're sleepy.
My ESFP little sister do this to me, I just say: Do wherever you want but get out of here, I'm sleeping!

I don't know if it's intentional or not.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
One low form of manipulation is waking up a person and then asking something when they're sleepy.
My ESFP little sister do this to me, I just say: Do wherever you want but get out of here, I'm sleeping!

I don't know if it's intentional or not.
Your sister is obviously a puppetmaster in the making.
 

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I have an aversion to the intentional and implicit manipulation others as well as an aversion to learning ways in which other's can be manipulated.
It seems to me that in most cases of implicit manipulation there is rarely a justifiable reason for doing so.
So you would rather have the naturally manipulative run amok without many other people learning how they operate or how to defend themselves in a rational manner because you lack the imagination to grasp this basic notion?

Yeah... I think I'd rather pick knowing my enemy or defending those around me via intelligent means, so no thanks and you can keep your ideas for yourself. I'm allergic to terrible strategists and their terrible strategies.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
So you would rather have the naturally manipulative run amok without many other people learning how they operate or how to defend themselves in a rational manner because you lack the imagination to grasp this basic notion?

Yeah... I think I'd rather pick knowing my enemy or defending those around me via intelligent means, so no thanks and you can keep your ideas for yourself. I'm allergic to terrible strategists and their terrible strategies.

Where do you come off? I've already said that I am aware of this. That's why I made this thread. I've just stated that I'm not willing to be implicitly manipulative myself in order to combat those who are. Also, I made this thread to see other's opinions on the matter not to spread my ideologies.

BTW, what is "defending yourself in a rational manner" supposed to mean? I don't see how I suggested otherwise, but maybe you have a totally different definition of rationality.

I have an aversion to the intentional and implicit manipulation others as well as an aversion to learning ways in which other's can be manipulated.

I know that it may seem that being unwilling to learn of these ways of manipulating people I am only allowing myself to be manipulated more easily.

Some people have an innate ability to manipulate others without the need to learn how. So I could reason that there's nothing wrong with attempting to level the playing field a bit by learning how to do it as well, but I won't.
 

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I myself have a tendency to be slightly manipulative, nothing big though, just small tasks and errands that my laziness does not allow. I find that for me, manipulating is kind of natural, I think it comes from the way I speak and carry myself. I can be pretty impressive when I want to, play with words, pretty and flattering words (where I come from, if you can speak English fluently and use bombastic words, you are automatically seen as competitive and impressive I guess), exert just enough confidence to make people feel respect for me, a little bit of mystery and hostility to make people a bit intimidated. It all comes in a perfect package, and everything works like a miracle. I sound really manipulative here...... but then all this is just for fun, no blackmail, really.
 

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I study manipulation to learn to avoid it. But I will use that information to my advantage if I need. I won't use it on people I like. But if I was a car salesman, I would certainly be manipulative. I wouldn't manipulate my friend. but everyone else... I gotta make a living.
 

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I try not to be evil and take advantage of social engineering, but it's just so easy.
 

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l don't know why people take pride in it.

l agree with defending yourself or learning how to spot the behavior and l'm not saying l wouldn't use similar tactics if someone used them on me.

lt's the ''Well, everyone_____'' explanation, for everything. With the implication that you think you're superior to people who do X-thing.

lt really tends to feed into a codependent dynamic with people, who keep perpetuating fucked up behavior because they can't function alone. l've never had close friends who would resort to those excuses because they actually cared about improving as human beings.

What l generally do with manipulative types-try to give the impression that l am not utterly disgusted with them so they won't target me next, maybe even play along a little, but wash my hands of them as soon as l have the chance.

Critics: ''That's manipulative''.
 
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The best puppet masters are the ones who will be loved forever by many people. Take God for instance, is he not a puppet master?
 

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It is.
When working on a project in group there's always(well mostly) one main leader. He knows what's the plan, what there is to do, etc etc. When discussing something in group I'll never take control of the conversation and say my idea. I just can't. But what I can do, is tell one person, then let the idea grow until half of the group is in on my conversation and the leader asks what we're talking about. Now not just one person can explain the idea, but 4 or 5 people talk about it, filling in eachother and making the idea grow till the point where everybody is convinced it's a good idea.

Now the idea has to be completed, people have to act. I'll go around, saying I'll do this and that, ask this person if he can do that and I'll do this for him, etc etc. I make sure things run smooth and everything is alright in the end. If someone else has a good idea on how to do something, I wont be dictatorial and make him do it my way. I rearrange stuff, I make sure everything will be alright in the end.

So yes. I love being manipulative. I'll do it out of selfish reasons, but it'll almost always be better for the person being manipulated as well.

 

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Where do you come off? I've already said that I am aware of this. That's why I made this thread. I've just stated that I'm not willing to be implicitly manipulative myself in order to combat those who are. Also, I made this thread to see other's opinions on the matter not to spread my ideologies.
The aversion to learning was non-nonsensical. The aversion to abuse was not.

BTW, what is "defending yourself in a rational manner" supposed to mean? I don't see how I suggested otherwise, but maybe you have a totally different definition of rationality.
Not being adverse to using your mind to gain a rational understanding of the world you live in.

Thinking and understanding before application of sentimentality, albeit responsibly and with decency.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
The aversion to learning was non-nonsensical. The aversion to abuse was not.
I think you meant to say that the other way round? An aversion to learning is nonsensical. An Aversion to abuse (inflicting abuse or inflicted abuse? you didn't specify) isn't.


Not being adverse to using your mind to gain a rational understanding of the world you live in.

Thinking and understanding before application of sentimentality, albeit responsibly and with decency.
In that sense, yes, I am being irrational in that I'm unwilling to allow myself to become manipulative for fear that I'd abuse it. Regardless, I'm not adverse to using my mind to gain a rational understanding of the world I live in , I'm just averse to doing so in an unethical manner. If you have the opinion that it's rational to go around implicitly manipulating people and then declaring it as for the sake of advancing your understanding, then that's fine with me. But don't go telling me that, by being unwilling to be implicitly manipulative myself, I'm supporting the manipulation of others. I have no intention of becoming manipulative myself in order to combat those who are manipulative, that's just cyclical logic.
 

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There is a compulsion to sort and order actions. This is OK, this is not OK.


Everything is dependent on inter-relations, "you" are constantly influenced and influencing in the universal quantum soup. Some bubbles in the soup come up with a concept and say "This is OK, this is not OK". These bubbles think they can somehow not be part of the soup. They say "That's me, That's not me".


What is manipulation? Who is "doing" it and who is it being done to? Neither can be answered to any degree of satisfaction, because it is built upon a dualistic world view that can't survive any scrutiny.


Do you want to point at something and go "This is not OK. That is not me"? Go ahead. More interesting than what is OK and what is not is however "What does it do?" and "How does it work?".
 
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