[susurration]

I've never been caught up in conventional definitions of things. I don't feel shackled or burdened by defining things my own way. The tension between reality/my own perspective has largely been a non-issue for me. I define it my way and that's that; and this means I take responsibility for my decisions and bear whatever the consequences that come with it.

My focus is on what I create rather than the limitations or burdens of the real world. I suppose they are the workings of Fi+Ne, and i've seen a handful of infps' expressing this.
But I notice that many infps' on forums focus a lot on what lacks in the "real world" rather than on being confidant in what they create for their selves. I understand Ne needs validation. But I want to ask why this is. Why not focus on creation as opposed to the lack of colour in reality?

The example to illustrate this is the case of male infps'. I have seen many express exasperation concerning not being typically "manly". Although I am not a male, I can empathise with being someone with characteristics opposed and chastised by society. I can only imagine some of the experiences you've had, and will continue to face in light of being who you are. As much as I wish it wasn't so, we know that social values often dismiss what many people find beautiful or true. I'm someone who sees no weakness in a man defined by values, or who is in touch with emotions, and I know there are many people who share this view. I hold no stock in traditional definitions of masculinity. But who cares what I or any other person thinks? it's about what you hold to be true inside you.

Apart from that: I as an INFP guy have actually not even a problem with being titled as innocent and what not. I know I am not the wild, dangerous guy who will kill you a tiger with my own hands to get some food if needed. That doesn't threaten my "manliness", I define it in other ways, and if I want a girl then one which can appreciate me the way I am. Are there women which can find that attitude sexy? I don't know, it depends on how you define sexy I guess.

Someone confident in who they are is not only attractive to other people, but most importantly, it gives you the opportunity to measure yourself on your OWN terms rather than being unsure, unsettled or shameful.
It seems like a paradox... a certain cognitive dissonance; to be something you have defined for yourself, and then to measure yourself by the very thing you reject. If you define success by happiness, you're not a failure for flunking a test. But you must be prepared to accept the flunking and how this external measurement is valued by the outside. And to fly in the face of it, valiantly.

I know many infps' are enneagram fours, and many feel a chronic sense of defectiveness. But many infps' who have flourished in life will tell you moving through depression, pain etc all points to one direction: accepting yourself. Acknowledging that you were never broken. That you are OK being who you are, and that to evaluate yourself by anything other than your own terms is madness (although a degree of external feedback is necessary of course!).

Without confidence, how can you meet the challenges that arise from being who you are?. Because there are always going to be consequences for defining you own life on your own terms. There is a tradeoff when you define your life by personal integrity instead of harmony with the environment. There will be negative consequences and there will be positive consequences. Take charge and refine what is more important to you.

If you want to live a life according to your ideals, you have to ask yourself if you are willing to accept and acknowledge the effects of living by what you have internally defined. For unless you declare and take responsibility for what you personally define and value, for the potential negative external consequences of maintain integrity with ideals and values, reality will always present itself as a burden. You just have to decide what is more important. And acknowledge that YOU made the choice through what YOU believed to be true.


So I ask....
Infps'... what have you defined for yourself? (it might be, how you view success, or how you view 'happiness') what lengths are you prepared to go to and what are you willing to experience, to remain true to these ideals?

 

[Stillwater]

I started to make a post and realized it was turning into an extensive multi-page essay, so I deleted it. This subject/question has been a major portion of my life the last few years and I seem to be unable to condense it into one or two paragraphs, so I'm not going to try. Good thread and I look forward to seeing others posts.

 

[refugee]

we like to think outside of the box, because the pursuit of truth demands it.

 

[hood]

Infps'... what have you defined for yourself? (it might be, how you view success, or how you view 'happiness') what lengths are you prepared to go to and what are you willing to experience, to remain true to these ideals?

I tried to understand the question my best, but
in short, I just think happiness is love, and love is happiness. I don't think someone can have true happiness without love, of some kind. No not the kind of love you see in movies, or even read in the bible... I wish I could explain what I mean better though, it makes more sense in my head. I'm not really sure what I'm prepared to go threw for my ideals, I couldn't measure what I wouldn't and would go through because I don't know if I'll even have to go through anything to reach my ideal. As far as I know, I reach it everyday... waking up seeing my family alive and well, being able to fill my stomach up with a lot more things than it needs most days, I got a nice bed I sleep in and a lot of other luxuries that I really don't need and don't deserve more than the next living thing. There's still some things I gotta worry about, but most of it isn't enough to keep me down for long because I have love at the end of the day, it's a good feeling. And I feel me, as an internal feeler, I can feel love like no other type can...

 

[Hiero]

Thank you so much Nova.
Your post was very meaningfull to me in more than one way. You helped my perspective to grow a bit =P.

My focus is on what I create rather than the limitations or burdens of the real world. I suppose they are the workings of Fi+Ne, and i've seen a handful of infps' expressing this.
But I notice that many infps' on forums focus a lot on what lacks in the "real world" rather than on being confidant in what they create for their selves. I understand Ne needs validation. But I want to ask why this is. Why not focus on creation as opposed to the lack of colour in reality?

And yea you are right. I know a couple other INFP's in my life but often it is not very much pleasant for me to be with them because, as you said, they often complain about not only "the limitations or burdens of the real world" but also what they are lacking as persons when they are just fine as they are as persons.
I'm not going to lie. I've been guilty of feeling that way before too but at least I chose to make a change if there was something I didn't like. Giving up on hope is the worst one can do in these situations, so hear me guys: Believe in yourself because you are beautiful and you deserve a wonderfull world too.

As for your questions.

what have you defined for yourself? (it might be, how you view success, or how you view 'happiness') what lengths are you prepared to go to and what are you willing to experience, to remain true to these ideals?

Well I think I'll be happy the day when I gain the strenght and courage to stand up for and do the things I believe in. To achieve this I guess I'll have to keep looking for the source of this "courage" not caring about what other people might think of me. I might have to stop caring what my loved ones think about my ideals for a bit if I have to.

 

[Rainbow]

I'll have to come back later or another time to read your post entirely. lol. I skimmed thru the first few paragraphs, though, and I can say that I don't like to talk about stuff with other people for various reasons but I end up doing it anyway. whether that be online or real life.
Little nutty.

 

[Sily]

...So I ask....
Infps'... what have you defined for yourself? (it might be, how you view success, or how you view 'happiness') what lengths are you prepared to go to and what are you willing to experience, to remain true to these ideals?

I love and believe in Me. What lengths am I willing to go to? I'm not sure I understand all of the question but I guess I'll answer this by saying that I'm a nine (or five?) & I don't feel defective. What am I willing to experience? I strive for the world molding their experiences to me, not me molding my experiences to the world. I'm the Captain of this ship, not the world/society. I decide what is right for me, not the world deciding what is right for me. "..what lengths are you prepared to go to and what are you willing to experience..." there is something about that sentence that makes me feel like I have to *do something?* for an entity (person?) and ummmm.... I'm pretty sure this homey don't play that game.

I may have not interpreted your question right.

?

 

[sarek]

I think throughout the years I have learned many of the lessons and the truths you speak of. Learning how to get past being held back by my many true and perceived deficiencies and realise that in my own way I am my own person. Learning that to my surprise I actually have something useful to contribute to the world.
No, I am not going to bring in major paying customers. No, I am not going to outperform my colleagues. But I do have some very unique skills and abilities that I can put to good use.
And I have come to realise that the reason I am here in this world is to exploit my strengths. I can try to combat and conquer my weaknesses but I will not let them cripple me.
Like the parable in the bible I have been given my own capital to invest wisely. I should neither hide nor squander it.

And I think the most important lesson of all is that one can never be a vessel for love or loving kindness if you are unable to love yourself.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Not to go off on a tangent (okay, it's a tangent), but I have a few thoughts on these type of INFPs..... In some ways, I can relate to them, or I have been them. I've had periods where the world is getting me down, where I become frustrated because things are not as they "should" be, or "could" be. I think this is a huge sign of the "Fi-Si loop". Not sure how much this concept has been discussed on this board, as far as dom-tert loops, but it's been discussed a lot on other boards. The idea is a person is allowing their tert function to overpower their aux (not consciously of course). The tert function is often referred to as being the relief function. For introverts, this makes sense, as turning inward and accessing their tert function can provide a sort of comfort from outside forces when they have become overwhelming. For INFPs, this is Si. The problem is when the INFP mindset gets suck there, and instead of using Si to step back, consider things from a more realistic viewpoint, and then return to their Ne perspective to create a new route to their ideals, they just wallow in past bad experiences and feelings, so that they lose their idealistic streak and become cynical about the world. The more mature the INFP, the less they get stuck there. I notice that older INFPs tend to have the trademark easy-going, hopeful demeanor that profiles emphasize.

Then there's the possibility that some of these Fi-doms, are in fact, ISFPs. Every time I review Gifts Differing I glean some small little insight that I managed to overlook the first time, as far as how type descriptions manifest in actual people.

The contrast between the real and the ideal weighs more heavily upon the ISFPs, who are more sharply aware of the actual state of affairs, than upon the INFPs, whose intuition suggests hopeful avenues of improvement. The ISFPs are also more likely to suffer a deficit of self-confidence. For both, the contrast offers a more acute problem than for other types.

So while the INFP may occasionally find themselves going in circles between Fi & Si without very little perception of the external possibilities to get past negative feelings, the ISFP's auxiliary function, their main way of perceiving, can prove to be an obstacle in dealing with their feelings and reality in a constructive way.

It's interesting that for BOTH types, intuition is key to developing a mindset which allows the Fi-dom to find expression of their ideals in reality, and to cope with reality when it offends their ideals.

Where intuition is developed, it is of great assistance in finding expression for introverted feeling, both in practical life and in art.

For ISFPs, this is of course Ni, which I imagine allows them to shift perspective on the current situation, to see it in a new light that affords them to find a place for their ideals. For INFPs, their Ne often creates some new path better suited to their ideals, one which may flout conventional ideas of success or whatever. So what the OP is discussing is applicable to both.

 

[susurration]

Not to go off on a tangent (okay, it's a tangent), but I have a few thoughts on these type of INFPs..... In some ways, I can relate to them, or I have been them. I've had periods where the world is getting me down, where I become frustrated because things are not as they "should" be, or "could" be. I think this is a huge sign of the "Fi-Si loop". Not sure how much this concept has been discussed on this board, as far as dom-tert loops, but it's been discussed a lot on other boards. The idea is a person is allowing their tert function to overpower their aux (not consciously of course). The tert function is often referred to as being the relief function. For introverts, this makes sense, as turning inward and accessing their tert function can provide a sort of comfort from outside forces when they have become overwhelming. For INFPs, this is Si. The problem is when the INFP mindset gets suck there, and instead of using Si to step back, consider things from a more realistic viewpoint, and then return to their Ne perspective to create a new route to their ideals, they just wallow in past bad experiences and feelings, so that they lose their idealistic streak and become cynical about the world. The more mature the INFP, the less they get stuck there. I notice that older INFPs tend to have the trademark easy-going, hopeful demeanor that profiles emphasize.

Then there's the possibility that some of these Fi-doms, are in fact, ISFPs. Every time I review Gifts Differing I glean some small little insight that I managed to overlook the first time, as far as how type descriptions manifest in actual people.

Originally Posted by Gifts Differing
The contrast between the real and the ideal weighs more heavily upon the ISFPs, who are more sharply aware of the actual state of affairs, than upon the INFPs, whose intuition suggests hopeful avenues of improvement. The ISFPs are also more likely to suffer a deficit of self-confidence. For both, the contrast offers a more acute problem than for other types.

So while the INFP may occasionally find themselves going in circles between Fi & Si without no little perception of the external possibilties to get past negative feelings, the ISFP's auxiliary function, their main way of perceiving, can prove to be an obstacle in dealing with their feelings and reality in a constructive way.

Originally Posted by Dr. J. H. van der Hoop, Conscious Orientation
Where intuition is developed, it is of great assistance in finding expression for introverted feeling, both in practical life and in art.

It's interesting that for BOTH types, intuition is key to developing a mindset which allows the Fi-dom to find expression of their ideals in reality, and to cope with reality when it offends their ideals.



For ISFPs, this is of course Ni, which I imagine allows them to shift perspective on the current situation, to see it in a new light that affords them to find a place for their ideals. For INFPs, their Ne often creates some new path better suited to their ideals, one which may flout conventional ideas of success or whatever. So what the OP is discussing is applicable to both.

Great post, thank you.

I considered the second possibility you mentioned, and I was going to put it in the OP. Essentially much of what I say is referring to the infps' who are actually isfps'. But I didn't type it explicitly because people seem to become offended when you question whether or not they perceive with sensing. Personally, I see nothing wrong with being an isfp at all and as you've mentioned yourself previously, they are a bunch of people with a heavy weight on their shoulders and I take my hat off to them. I have many isfp friends... and the differences between us are clear. I'm largely positive, and they are negative (well to me it looks negative, but it's just blunt realism) roud: any wonder. I don't know where i'd be if I hadn't always been intune with the endless "possibilities" and could express myself and relate to others through Ne. I think you know an infp when you can kind of see them working through that process. I personally don't put much weight into overly considering every day issues in reality, I kind of drift off into my own planet.. and it's the same for the other infp friends I have. Reality isn't as threatening, and it's not something we are tied down by. The real world is something we have certainly had to slowly come to know, because you have to come back down to earth at one point... but we don't totally subsist in it. So it's not really something to become torn up by. I've never really felt like I've had a horrible life, or felt concerned that the external world sucks.

It's certainly clear when you look at the manifestation of the issues discussed on these personality boards, the difference between the issues stemming from the Fi+Si loop in the infp, and the issues stemming from Fi+Se in the isfp. I'd go as far as to say many threads, perhaps even half, created by "infps'" on these boards are by isfps' and isfjs'. I think infps' seem to face issues which go across the board, and people of all types could find their place here. Many things I can empathise with, but when you consider their thought patterns... it's hard to relate to. I can pick out, as you probably can too, someone going through an fi+si loop... even someone entrenched in Fi. But the issues concerning Fi+Se, I can't wholly relate to. It's not in my body of experience, so I have to try hard to see the world from their perspective.

It's clear that both types can have a problem with supporting their Fi i.e. allowing theirselves to trust themselves and what they (subjectively) know through Fi. Indeed, you mentioned the path of development that is necessary to overcome these adjacent issues, and I hope the people who need it, consider such information.