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Grumpy old bastard
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It is a personal observation in regards to the cognitive bias of the cooperate American culture vs the East Asian. The western cultures cultivate a sense of independence, self-reliance, ego-inflation, narcissism (3/7/8ness), whereas Asian cultures (specifically Japan, Korea, Singapore) promote (1/3/6ness) due to the collectivistic nature. Asians are generally more likely to make situational attributions less likely to make dispositional dispositions (Na & Kitayama, 2011). Although the Enneagram type is a result of the neurological dispositions, I believe culture has a influence over how the individual develops as well.

8s can admit their own mistakes, but what if someone accuses them of something? Are they as receptive whereas to 9s or 1s? What I mean is that, 8s have a stronger Ego defense mechanism that rejects and/or denies information that can potentially disempower them.
Sounds to me like a lot of unfounded personal biases and bigotry. I'd be curious to hear some logic.

As an example, I don't need your opinion for my power base. I don't count on someone giving me power.

My golden ideal is TRUTH. I give truth. I value Truth. I very much appreciate people who GIVE me truth.

An unhealthy anyone doesn't like to be criticized. Most healthy, mature people want to improve themselves, and well meant Truth is welcome.
 
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Dropping by with some quick answers. Been busy with work.

Ugh, the people who are trying to say you're wrong can't figure out the difference between (stating an objective, abstract rule) like a type definition and (telling a story as an example of said objective, abstract rule) like a narrative as an example/manifestation of type definition.

It's the difference between saying "water-type attacks are strong against fire-type pokemon" and going "Smeargle used Water Gun against Charmander". The part that will trip people up is that they probably rather I say "Squirtle" instead. :rolleyes:
[HR][/HR]
Extraordinary insights for understanding 8s @cir!

The whole credit/blame is very convincing. Where did you get this all?
Life experience. If it makes sense, then the proof is in the existence of the story itself.

Notice the difference between (people who can offer a narrative that seems to make sense) and the (people who can only pick things apart and say you're wrong without offering any alternative narratives of their own). Think of what fundamentally makes those kinds of people different. Someone who offers stories that try to make sense of the enneagram is trying to see the whole picture. The people who are trying to pick apart and find faults in everything are missing the forest for the trees; the opposite operation. The opposite of "integration" is "disintegration"/"differentiation". Focusing on what we have in common vs focusing on what makes us different.

What is type nine's basic desires and fears? Are those words essentially synonyms to "integrate" and "disintegrate"? From here:


But I can actually back it up:


Anyone who tries to divorce the issue of blame separately from type eights are not speaking about the same enneagram system you, I, and Almaas are.

8s can admit their own mistakes, but what if someone accuses them of something? Are they as receptive whereas to 9s or 1s? What I mean is that, 8s have a stronger Ego defense mechanism that rejects and/or denies information that can potentially disempower them.
The stronger eights take it first, and then decides what to do afterwards. My story works because blame/credit is a manifestation of duality, which, if you notice the above graph, is defined as the type's core delusion and specific reaction. Again, anyone who denies their importance to the type eight structure, and without offering explanations of their own, is disagreeing with Almaas.
[HR][/HR]
It is a personal observation in regards to the cognitive bias of the cooperate American culture vs the East Asian. The western cultures cultivate a sense of independence, self-reliance, ego-inflation, narcissism (3/7/8ness), whereas Asian cultures (specifically Japan, Korea, Singapore) promote (1/3/6ness) due to the collectivistic nature. Asians are generally more likely to make situational attributions less likely to make dispositional dispositions (Na & Kitayama, 2011). Although the Enneagram type is a result of the neurological dispositions, I believe culture has a influence over how the individual develops as well.
Yes. We have a lot more in common than you'd think. But also, book recommendation.

I find it offensive that people here neither know the definitions of the enneagram, or understand how to be culturally sensitive. Yes, all cultures are a set of cognitive biases, just like all enneatypes are a set of cognitive biases. Now go find someone of another race/ethnic/religious group and tell them that their beliefs/understanding of the world are "wrong"/"are biased"/"bigoted".

Speaking of the truth and the Asian way of seeing things... A large area of mathematics study the nature of truth. Asian students generally outperform white students in math within the US and internationally. So think of how useless it is to tell a Tiger Mom that she's "wrong" and "biased". She's not going to care, because "numbers don't lie".

Yeah, I don't agree that biases are a bad thing. To "be without ego" is to say "ego death", and I'm not sure that people really understand what that entails. It's great for personal growth, sure, but the rest of the world doesn't work that way, and everyone develop at different rates. I rather learn people's biases and get on with my life than waste my time preaching about an impractical ideal (a loving dig at type ones).

Oh yeah, conclusion. The more "Asian" you are, the more likely that you understand math and social relations via whole-part relationship. My dad (8w9) taught me math this way, and due to the civil wars (you should know which), he was never formally educated. Or also, think of how eights and nines perceive whole-part in reality.
 

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Sounds to me like a lot of unfounded personal biases and bigotry. I'd be curious to hear some logic.

As an example, I don't need your opinion for my power base. I don't count on someone giving me power.

My golden ideal is TRUTH. I give truth. I value Truth. I very much appreciate people who GIVE me truth.

An unhealthy anyone doesn't like to be criticized. Most healthy, mature people want to improve themselves, and well meant Truth is welcome.
What do you mean by 'truth'? The objective truth or what you accept to be 'truth'? I wouldn't say the enneagram forum is the ideal place if you are seeking scientific truth. As counterargument, one could argue that there are situations where 9 or 1s could reject information. 9s can be very stubborn and respond 'yes' but persist do otherwise, while 1's superego can filter irrelevant/inappropriate information. In what cases would 8 accept something that they would find disempowering? Are 8s more likely to take a moment to reflect or act upon their own will?

EDIT: the way that you responded is also confirming my prior statement. Are you usually the first to listen or first to assert your 'truth?
 

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Yeah, I don't agree that biases are a bad thing. To "be without ego" is to say "ego death", and I'm not sure that people really understand what that entails. It's great for personal growth, sure, but the rest of the world doesn't work that way, and everyone develop at different rates. I rather learn people's biases and get on with my life than waste my time preaching about an impractical ideal (a loving dig at type ones).
I don't think you really understand what it entails. Ego death doesn't mean to be without ego.
 

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What do you mean by 'truth'? The objective truth or what you accept to be 'truth'? Are 8s more likely to take a moment to reflect or act upon their own will?

EDIT: the way that you responded is also confirming my prior statement. Are you usually the first to listen or first to assert your 'truth?
The only Truth you can offer is your Truth. Your version of Truth. It may match mine, it may not. Hopefully it does not, as there is more to learn when we disagree.

I'm listening if you have something meaningful to say, and can back your opinions. You stated something above. I stated you do not understand at the least ME as an 8, and I don't think you are giving a great explanation of 8's in general.

If you don't like the "way" I responded, then you object to my delivery, but agree with my perspective?

What do you think about my statement unhealthy anyone does not like to be questioned, but healthy, safe, mature individuals will listen to being questioned?

I think it is fair to say if you attack me or someone I care for, I'm not going to do much listening, and it is fair to say an 8 is not very good at listening when they perceive they are being attacked.

However, if you are not attacking me, but instead kindly offering your version of Truth, I am more receptive than most in trying to understand and listen to you. I don't think it is fair to say you can "disempower" me, and I'm not worried about that. Try to control me? that is something different.
 
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Entropic said:
It's a part of the original enneagram theory:

Blame is a word that figures largely in the psychology of an Eight – ascertaining who is at fault and avenging the wrong is a central preoccupation. This is why this type is called Ego-Revenge as mentioned at the beginning of this chapter, and why Ichazo named the Eight fixation vengeance, as we see on Diagram 2.

He blames himself, but this is very difficult to tolerate, so in a decisive psychological move, he projects the blame outward: it is the fault of others. His parents and the rest his early holding environment become responsible for this profound loss in his mind, and this wrong must be righted. He must be vindicated and restitution must be extracted. Blaming his early milieu and staying stuck in his anger about his childhood not only keeps him from hating himself but also protects the memory of that preciousness that he once experienced as himself. He protects the goodness of his True Nature in this way. This is his own personal jihad, and restores to him a sense of virtue.

He would rather get angry and blame his parents, protesting that they should have been different and should have treated him differently, about how ignorant and crazy they were, and so on.
Ah I see, hence 'the dog ate my homework'.... :dry:

I responded to the fundamental attribution error (situation vs type), but since you insist in seeing this within the perspective of 8, I'll make a case that type 8 is not the only type where Guilt or Blame are prominent.

Frankly, I don't see how your quotes relates to the relational issues you started the thread with. You haven't mentioned anything about vindictiveness, which can be related to both the perspective of type 8 and 4. For instance:

Naranjo Type 4 said:
The neurotic suffering may serve the defensive purposes of avoiding recriminations, competitions, and responsibility. It is a way of expressing accusations and vindictiveness in a disguised form.
To put oneself in a victim position doesn't sound like operating from a disposition of strength that is usually ascribed to 8. It's rather defensive, though victimization can be vindictive, like in the case of type 4. I would see 8's identification with the past more as a 'survivor' rather than a victim, at the expense of losing his innocence, that is at least a dispositional belief, that it made him (admittedly) 'bad'. It also explains the soft spot some may have for protecting the innocence.


But what if they did nothing wrong to begin with?
You mean they were innocent? You say you own up to your shortcomings, but did you own up for being wrong about those accusations? I mean, doesn't sound like it, if they end up experiencing it as if you are still putting all the blame on them. Why do you think is that? And if they did nothing, it's not blame but suspicion.

Naranjo Type cp6 said:
Guilt is as prominent in ennea-type VI character as in types IV and V, only that in type VI the mechanism of guilt production goes hand-in-hand with a prominent mechanism of exculpation through projection and the creation of outer enemies. (...)

We may say that guilt manifested in such traits as defensiveness, self-justification, and insecurity, involves an act of self-accusation, by which an individual becomes an invalidating parent to himself. It is in this act of self-opposition through which an individual becomes his or her own enemy, that I see the fixation proper of type VI, i.e., the cognitive defect that developed as a consequence of fear and has ended by becoming its root. Accusation is not only a type VI characteristic in regard to self, but also to others—perhaps through the operation of projection in the service of avoiding the torment of too much guilt. Not only does ennea-type VI persecute himself and feel persecuted, but also he is a suspicious and critical persecutor—and he may affirm his grandiosity precisely in view of the entitlement that it affords to pronounce judgment on others.
Also with regard to "Truth"

Naranjo Type cp6 said:
He protects himself from doubt, ambiguity, and indecision through a “true believer” excessive certainty. (..) At times—and as a defense against unbearable ambiguity—he may take before the world the position of a true believer who is absolutely sure of things.
 

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The only Truth you can offer is your Truth. Your version of Truth. It may match mine, it may not. Hopefully it does not, as there is more to learn when we disagree.

I'm listening if you have something meaningful to say, and can back your opinions. You stated something above. I stated you do not understand at the least ME as an 8, and I don't think you are giving a great explanation of 8's in general.

If you don't like the "way" I responded, then you object to my delivery, but agree with my perspective?

What do you think about my statement unhealthy anyone does not like to be questioned, but healthy, safe, mature individuals will listen to being questioned?

I think it is fair to say if you attack me or someone I care for, I'm not going to do much listening, and it is fair to say an 8 is not very good at listening when they perceive they are being attacked.

However, if you are not attacking me, but instead kindly offering your version of Truth, I am more receptive than most in trying to understand and listen to you. I don't think it is fair to say you can "disempower" me, and I'm not worried about that. Try to control me? that is something different.
It was not my intention to attack you nor any Eights here. The statement was directly related with @cir's wonderful essay (on page 2) about Eight's blaming mechanism and I followed up with my own personal observations. It may seem striking if you read my post first without having read hers in this thread.

I agree that mature Eights are more likely to 'listen first, speak after'. My prior description describes mostly average-unhealthy Eights and I admit it was my mistake to disregard how psychologically mature the individual was; I can understand that my first statement may be offensive to Eights because it portrays their unjustly. Mature or healthy Eights are less self-identified with their anger/blame/rage, and master their 'anger' by becoming more of a magnanimous force that is reconnected with their emphatic/listening side (The Sensei) rather than a destructive and reactive one that lashes out (The Brute).

Also, would you agree that older age usually causes Eights to develop towards their psychological integration, because they soon come to realize that there is a physical limitation to strength (weakness of age) and start developing gentle strength? I am interested in your insights.
 

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Ah I see, hence 'the dog ate my homework'.... :dry:
It was an example to illustrate a point. I don't see what's difficult to understand about that?

I responded to the fundamental attribution error (situation vs type), but since you insist in seeing this within the perspective of 8, I'll make a case that type 8 is not the only type where Guilt or Blame are prominent.

Frankly, I don't see how your quotes relates to the relational issues you started the thread with. You haven't mentioned anything about vindictiveness, which can be related to both the perspective of type 8 and 4. For instance:
The supposed vindictiveness of 4 is very different from the blame of type 8. The 8 will directly place blame upon others, which may include such menial examples as "the dog ate my homework" because that is how deeply rooted blame can be in the psyche:

The most important expression of his vindictiveness towards others is in the kind of claims he makes and the way he asserts them. He may not be openly demanding and not at all aware of having or making any claims, but in fact he feels entitled both to having his neurotic needs implicitly respected and to being permitted his utter disregard of others’ needs and wishes. He feels entitled for instance to the unabridged expression of his unfavorable observations and criticisms but feels equally entitled never to be criticized himself. He is entitled to decide how often or how seldom to see a friend and what to do with the time spent together. Conversely he also is entitled to not have others express any expectations or objections on this sore.
The 8 will avoid placing themselves in situations that could potentially disempower them, just as @Quang correctly noted, and an important part of how they do that is to blame.
To put oneself in a victim position doesn't sound like operating from a disposition of strength that is usually ascribed to 8. It's rather defensive, though victimization can be vindictive, like in the case of type 4. I would see 8's identification with the past more as a 'survivor' rather than a victim, at the expense of losing his innocence, that is at least a dispositional belief, that it made him (admittedly) 'bad'. It also explains the soft spot some may have for protecting the innocence.

I see this as highly incorrect. The idea of being a survivor, is imo, better fitted within type 3, in that 3s may be the more likely to actually see themselves as survivors. 8s got a 7 or 9 wing, and would downplay this idea of overcoming either with the logic of "it was all fine, it wasn't that bad, I'm doing great" or "it wasn't that big of a deal it was a long time ago, it's not important". Unhealthy levels may deny a sense of victimhood, but I would argue that it is still an important aspect of the psyche. Losing innocence is a feeling of losing a part of oneself, a part of what made you human, which, in more self-aware 8s, result in a sense of victimhood for being forced to give up on it. Again, blame:

t is the fault of others. His parents and the rest his early holding environment become responsible for this profound loss in his mind, and this wrong must be righted. He must be vindicated and restitution must be extracted. Blaming his early milieu and staying stuck in his anger about his childhood not only keeps him from hating himself but also protects the memory of that preciousness that he once experienced as himself. He protects the goodness of his True Nature in this way. This is his own personal jihad, and restores to him a sense of virtue.


You mean they were innocent? You say you own up to your shortcomings, but did you own up for being wrong about those accusations? I mean, doesn't sound like it, if they end up experiencing it as if you are still putting all the blame on them. Why do you think is that? And if they did nothing, it's not blame but suspicion.
Your idea of attempting to shovel that I'm a cp6 on me shows how little to you know me and how little you actually know the enneagram since you cannot differentiate between the core psychological mechanisms and how both of the types manifest in their behavior. Blame is not at all an important aspect of the 6, even cp6. The notion of blame does not at all take up an important aspect of the 6's psyche. Also, how the fuck you managed to twist it to be about suspicion I got no idea about, lol. It is actually very simple and straight-forward. I experience emotional hurts, I blame them for causing it. Has nothing to do with suspicion. Furthermore, not every 6 is going to act or be suspicious at every instance.

Also with regard to "Truth"
lol, you should go look at a poster above me who keeps citing his need for truth, not I. With that said, you don't seem to understand why holy truth is the holy idea for type 8, and that is because 8s wants their sense of reality and how they perceive it to be to be heard. That is how they recreate holy truth. You are getting hung up over buzzes as there are a lot of types who can harp over the notion of truth, but what truth? Only 8 has a holy idea pertaining to it, and only 8 is the type that will staunchly insist on their version of the story being the correct one, hence denial is an important aspect of the 8, because when you insist that your idea of the truth is the only truth, you also deny that of others. 6s for example, and their idea of truth, is more an idea of revealing reality of how they think it truly is like. They have figured out the supposed true nature of something and someone else, and they will spend time to unveil this supposed true nature to the public, they will point out the emperor as naked. In fact, that is a behavior that is much more befitting you and how you have been passive-aggressively trying to suggest, over the course of several months now, that you think I am a 6 which again, just shows you don't know what a 6 vis-a-vis an 8 is. Your attempt to retype me as a 6 says way more about you and your own fears than it does mine.

A 6 vs. 8 got very different behavioral patterns, and I do not fit the pattern of a 6 at all. You may for example be interested to read this little nugget by R&H:

Relationship Issues
Eights are often sought out as partners because they appear so confident, capable, and strong. Others are reassured by their solidity and feel that the Eight will offer protection and stability in the relationship. (When Eights are healthy, this is true.) Eights also exude a great deal of charisma—they have tremendous instinctual energy and many people feel attracted to their intensity. However, other people may be frightened by the same qualities in Eights, and when Eights assert their energy too forcefully, they often create problems in their relationships. Some of their main trouble spots include the following:

-Becoming self-absorbed and uninterested in others' feelings or problems due to feeling overwhelmed by their own feelings.
-Overreacting to perceived rejection by withdrawing or losing their temper.
-Pushing others to get a more "genuine" response.
-Becoming remote and emotionally unavailable when troubled.
-Becoming possessive and jealous of the partner.
-Seeing the other as an inferior to be shaped and directed; not respecting the partner as an equal.
-Acting out difficult psychological issues in rages, binges, or acts of revenge.
All of these points apply sans perhaps, the last one, in how I operate in my current relationship, though it is the one in bolded that is the cause of the original post and how it makes me blame my partner in various ways for causing my current emotional state of mind, among other things.

If you want an example of a cp6, there is another poster on here who has been exhibiting the traits of the 6 extremely prominently in public as of late, but unfortunately for you, I think you lack sufficient knowledge and awareness to realize that they are one. Too bad.
 

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I don't think you really understand what it entails. Ego death doesn't mean to be without ego.
1. Ok, then what does it mean?

2. From the link
Ego death is a "complete loss of subjective self-identity."...
In (descriptions of) psychedelic experiences, the term is used synonymously with ego-loss to refer to (temporary) loss of one's sense of self due to the use of psychedelics. The term was used as such by Timothy Leary et al. to describe the (symbolic) death of the ego in the first phase of a LSD-trip, in which a "complete transcendence" of the self and the "game" occurs.
Actually, I'm tired of defining words in order to have a discussion. This is essentially a problem of "we're not speaking the same/common language", and I'm not interesting in continuing these pointless "discussions" with you.
 

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. It may seem striking if you read my post first without having read hers in this thread.



Also, would you agree that older age usually causes Eights to develop towards their psychological integration, because they soon come to realize that there is a physical limitation to strength (weakness of age) and start developing gentle strength? I am interested in your insights.
You are right; I did not read the original post, but did read your's probably out of context. My apologies.

I am an N, and still plenty physically strong. Kicking bullies gets old, and I do like new (Sx). "Adjusting" people to be nicer is harder than simply destroying them. Seems a worthy challenge.

FWIW, I'm a professor. Watching people grow and learn and evolve does bring some satisfaction.
 
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1. Ok, then what does it mean?


2. From the link

Actually, I'm tired of defining words in order to have a discussion. This is essentially a problem of "we're not speaking the same/common language", and I'm not interesting in continuing these pointless "discussions" with you.
You were referring to an acid trip? Long time ago, I had to open the bar where I worked at 11 in the morning, still tripping. While I managed to finish the full 8 hour shift, I'd agree that it can seriously complicate normal functioning in daily life, even performing routine operation. But no, this temporary altered state of consciousness, or 'ego-loss' is not what is meant with ego death, at least not in the psycho-spiritual transformative context (of the enneagram), and it certainly doesn't mean having no ego.

Christina Grof said:
Ego-death does not mean the disintegration of the healthy ego, the ego we need in order to function in daily life. What dies in this process is the part of us that holds on to the illusion of control, the part of us that thinks we are running the show, that we are in charge. What disintegrates is the false identity that operates as though we are the center of the universe.
A.H. Almaas said:
It is clear here that the ego or self which is annihilated in ego death is not the ego of depth psychology and it is not the actual self. It is specifically the self-identity. The death of this identity merely means that there is no barrier or resistance to the Presence of Essence.(...)

(...)Complete flexibility of identity raises the phenomenon of disidentification to a new level, beyond the normal egoic experience. This flexibility involves the dissolution of self-identity, or more accurately, the cessation of the activity of identifying. This condition, which occurs in isolated experiences of self-realization, but is the permanent condition of full self-realization (enlightenment), is what is referred to by some traditions as "ego death" or "the death of the self." In this state of complete annihilation of identity, one does not have identity in the usual sense; our identity is now with the presence of Being. In other words, our identity has shifted from the self-representation to Being.
Aziz Kristof said:
Enlightenment does not annihilate the ego. Why would someone want to annihilate something so useful and extraordinary? It has not been by chance that we have mentioned many times how important the mind and ego are as the creative force of our intelligence. We need to dissolve this dangerous spiritual conditioning that has taken deep root in our habitual way of thinking. Irresponsible psychological language has caused a lot of harm to those on the Path. The ego concept needs to be defined in a way that relates to our everyday experience, and to all those complicated processes in meditation and on the spiritual Path. (...)

The personality without Presence is ignorance of course, but Presence without the personality is like a tree without fruit, the sun without rays or a flower without fragrance. They are one organic whole. When we fully understand that ego is “good,” the whole issue of eliminating it drops off by itself. But this is not yet the end. We are coming now to the next complicated problem: what kind of ego should we have?

Aziz Kristof, a non-traditional Advaita-Zen Master

If this is pointless to you, then I wonder what point you try to make.
 

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You were referring to an acid trip?
Not specifically.
But no, this temporary altered state of consciousness, or 'ego-loss' is not what is meant with ego death, and it certainly doesn't mean having no ego.
Then we're just going to have to disagree.
Ego death is a "complete loss of subjective self-identity."...
In (descriptions of) psychedelic experiences, the term is used synonymously with ego-loss to refer to (temporary) loss of one's sense of self due to the use of psychedelics. The term was used as such by Timothy Leary et al. to describe the (symbolic) death of the ego in the first phase of a LSD-trip, in which a "complete transcendence" of the self and the "game" occurs.
If this is pointless to you, then I wonder what point you try to make.
The ego is still there. Everyone has one. Doesn't matter if the ego was formed due to enneatype considerations or culture. Instead of preaching about the ideals of ego death, learn what kind of ego people have, get over it, and move on with life.

Now let's get some things clear here. Quang and I were having a discussion about things I wrote. You replied to me with a dismissive statement, didn't bother to elaborate, and didn't bother to explain why and how it matters in the "big picture" context.
  • This thread is not about the semantics of ego death. If you want to talk about it, go make another thread somewhere else.
  • If you refuse to accept the simple definitions of things, then we're not speaking the same language, and therefore can't have a discussion.
  • If you want to think you're right and I'm wrong, go right ahead, I don't care. I am unable and unwilling to be convinced by you.
  • If you won't state how it matters within the context of the conversation flow or in the thread, it's off topic, so please keep it to yourself.
  • There's a time and place for everything. Personal stories are inherently subjective. If you have nothing to add, then take it or leave it.
 

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Not specifically.
Then we're just going to have to disagree.

The ego is still there. Everyone has one. Doesn't matter if the ego was formed due to enneatype considerations or culture. Instead of preaching about the ideals of ego death, learn what kind of ego people have, get over it, and move on with life.

Now let's get some things clear here. Quang and I were having a discussion about things I wrote. You replied to me with a dismissive statement, didn't bother to elaborate, and didn't bother to explain why and how it matters in the "big picture" context.
  • This thread is not about the semantics of ego death. If you want to talk about it, go make another thread somewhere else.
  • If you refuse to accept the simple definitions of things, then we're not speaking the same language, and therefore can't have a discussion.
  • If you want to think you're right and I'm wrong, go right ahead, I don't care. I am unable and unwilling to be convinced by you.
  • If you won't state how it matters within the context of the conversation flow or in the thread, it's off topic, so please keep it to yourself.
  • There's a time and place for everything. Personal stories are inherently subjective. If you have nothing to add, then take it or leave it.
Well you stated people don't know what it really entails, which means you'd have to qualify that as dismissive no less.

Oh well...
 

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It was an example to illustrate a point. I don't see what's difficult to understand about that?
In all of my life, when people are late, I've never experienced it that the person said 'it was my fault. I suck at time management. I departed too late, and forgot something important and had to go back'. No, usually it's traffic jam, meeting extended etc. All beyond control. I doubt they were all eights. It's like I said human nature. I know some people still get pissed, usually because they themselves make sure they arrive 15 minutes before. So they would likely still attribute it to the person.

But that's life. There's tons of everyday examples like that.

Anyway, I guess it confirms your beliefs, so whatever.

So, anyway, you become self-absorbed and uninterested in their feelings because you feel overwhelmed by feelings, so much that they feel that you put all the blame on them. So what do you blame them or accuse them of, what they didn't do? You didn't accuse them of overwhelming your feelings, I suppose.

I think the problem is that you can't control those knee jerk responses. And now you want to know how other eights resolve typical 8 conflicts, assuming this is typical 8 behavior. I hope you get good advise from other 8s, really. I wish you peaceful coexistence and love. I think more important than type identity is knowing what underpins those knee jerk responses. That's in a way what type is about. I used to have particular issues in relationships too and I had to look deep inside to understand myself. Why I ended up at the opposite of where I wanted to be. I didn't have enneagram to guide me, to tell me about my motivations, or flaws. As of now I haven't decided yet whether that was an disadvantage or not. I am certainly not passive aggressive typing you, just giving you an alternative explanation. You can reject that, fine. You can say that my knowledge sucks. Fine. Say I don't know you. 'kay. That it doesn't even make sense. That I'm missing the point. If that makes you feel better, fine.
 
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