BPD and INTJ
[INTJ]
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Well...
No, but then I don't have a large sample size to pull from to generate meaningful data. I suspect I have exhibited many symptoms of BPD but never had a diagnosis to confirm this. While I wouldn't be surprised to see INTJs are the most common for it, it isn't something I'd be out to prove either.
No, but then I don't have a large sample size to pull from to generate meaningful data. I suspect I have exhibited many symptoms of BPD but never had a diagnosis to confirm this. While I wouldn't be surprised to see INTJs are the most common for it, it isn't something I'd be out to prove either.
Well my aim is to determine (as far as I can) whether the disorder SEEMS to show up more with the INTJ because of their extreme personality (such as: an INTJ not exactly taught to handle emotion well, thus exhibiting the symptom) or if they are simply more prone to it.
I exhibit 7/9 of the traits, though I am not as extreme with said traits as the tests make out (for example: mood swings. Usually they are precipitated by stress or a trigger and don't last long, and my "flashbang" anger is typical INTJ).
I exhibit 7/9 of the traits, though I am not as extreme with said traits as the tests make out (for example: mood swings. Usually they are precipitated by stress or a trigger and don't last long, and my "flashbang" anger is typical INTJ).
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It should be noted that simply having a high number of symptoms does not indicate a predisposition for the disorder. The Wiki says that Suicidal or self-harming behavior is one of the core diagnostic criteria of the disorder, and I suspect that this quality, in the context of secondary qualities, would be a/the major indicator for confirming the disorder. BPD is often characterized by multiple low-lethality suicide attempts triggered by seemingly minor incidents, and less commonly by high-lethality attempts that are attributed to impulsiveness or comorbid major depression, with interpersonal stressors appearing to be particularly common triggers.
I myself show a few symptoms including:
symptoms which I exhibited in adolesence are:
symptoms which I do not experience are:
The specific reason why I am sure that I am not a candidate for this classification of disorder is because I am simply too stubborn to have the attitude of a victim. I might fail, often even, but my will is indomitable, and I am the only one allowed control of myself.
Because this poll leans toward asking for users to make a self-diagnosis, I would like to note a short disclaimer ::begin feminist rant:: that the diagnosis of BPD has been criticized from a feminist perspective because some of the diagnostic criteria/symptoms of the disorder uphold common gender stereotypes about feminine behavior. The question has also been raised of why women are three times more likely to be diagnosed with BPD than men. Women may be more likely to receive a personality disorder diagnosis if they reject the female role by being hostile, successful or sexually active; alternatively if a woman presents with psychiatric symptoms but does not conform to a traditional passive sick role, she may be labelled as a "difficult" patient and given the diagnosis of BPD. I believe this could be equally true of some men who do not conform to the masculine stereotype and are persecuted for it. ::end feminist rant::
I myself show a few symptoms including:
- experiencing frequent, strong and long-lasting states of aversive tension, often triggered by perceived rejection, being alone or perceived failure.
- acting deliberately manipulative or difficult
- Parents have been reported to show co-existing extremes of over-involvement and under-involvement.
- Impulsive behaviors are common, including alcohol or drug abuse, unsafe sex and recklessness in general.
symptoms which I exhibited in adolesence are:
- showing affective lability between anger and anxiety or between depression and anxiety and temperamental sensitivity to emotive stimuli.
- feelings of fragmentation or lack of identity
symptoms which I do not experience are:
- while being high in intimacy- or novelty-seeking, can be hyper-alert to signs of rejection or not being valued and tend toward insecure, avoidant or ambivalent, or fearfully preoccupied patterns in relationships.
- tend to view the world generally as dangerous and malevolent, and tend to view themselves as powerless, vulnerable, unacceptable and unsure in self-identity.
- Self-image can also change rapidly from extremely positive to extremely negative.
- can be very sensitive to the way others treat them, reacting strongly to perceived criticism or hurtfulness.
- victimization
- emotional instability, intense unstable interpersonal relationships, a need for relatedness and a fear of rejection.
The specific reason why I am sure that I am not a candidate for this classification of disorder is because I am simply too stubborn to have the attitude of a victim. I might fail, often even, but my will is indomitable, and I am the only one allowed control of myself.
Because this poll leans toward asking for users to make a self-diagnosis, I would like to note a short disclaimer ::begin feminist rant:: that the diagnosis of BPD has been criticized from a feminist perspective because some of the diagnostic criteria/symptoms of the disorder uphold common gender stereotypes about feminine behavior. The question has also been raised of why women are three times more likely to be diagnosed with BPD than men. Women may be more likely to receive a personality disorder diagnosis if they reject the female role by being hostile, successful or sexually active; alternatively if a woman presents with psychiatric symptoms but does not conform to a traditional passive sick role, she may be labelled as a "difficult" patient and given the diagnosis of BPD. I believe this could be equally true of some men who do not conform to the masculine stereotype and are persecuted for it. ::end feminist rant::
I think it's important to note that nearly everyone will manifest some symptoms of psychiatric disorders. (Which disorders they share symptoms with will very according to their personality, behaviors, and background). The thing that differentiates the 'normal' (I prefer the term neurotypical) from those who actually have the illness is the extent to which the behavior interferes with one's ability to function in every day life. In other words, if one has mild mood swings every now and then one can be normal. (PMS, anyone?) But if the mood swings are severe enough and frequent enough to make it difficult to maintain relationships and/or hold down a job, then one has a real problem. (Perhaps bipolar or BPD). So then you can't say that since INTJs share symptoms with those who have BPD, there is a correlation between INTJs and BPD. Even if there is, correlation is not necessarily causation.
I personally see very little in the behavior of the INTJs that I know that would reflect symptoms typical of BPD. I've always pictured BPD as being reflective of more of feeling (F) rather than thinking (T) personality. And in the autobiographies I've read by people who had BPD, they always seemed rather more extroverted (E) than introverted (I). Maybe that's me though, I've never studied the link between mental illness and myers-briggs typing. And, to be fair, I do exhibit many of the symptoms of BPD. But really that's largely due to failings on the DSM-IV. The DSM-V is hopefully going to change that. < /Psychology nerd >
Not to derail the thread or anything, but I can't resist INTJ-ing for a moment. I do not think that a BPD diagnosis is an attempt to persecute those who rebel against gender typings. The key to an accurate diagnosis is of course going to be how extreme and/or detrimental the behavior is, not whether or not the diagnosis might offend certain parties. For example, a woman who is as sexually active as an average male would be perceived in modern society as healthy and shouldn't be diagnosed with BPD. (I'm choosing to overlook arguments based on morality). But a woman who throws herself at everyone is doing more than just rebelling against gender type, she's behaving in a way that puts her health on the line, and thus impacts how she functions daily n a negative manner. She should not be praised for her willingness to 'rebel', but offered help and warned about her self-destructive behaviors. (Of course the same would be true for men, but since BPD tend's to be, statistically, a women's disorder like autism is stereotypically a male disorder, I used a woman in this example).
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I actually have BPD.
Haha BethDeth - this has nothing to do with your post here, I laughed at your signature quote about the donkey. I lol'ed for about 5 minutes when I read that at work. My colleague thought I was cruel ("what about the poor donkey?!") - the black humour was clearly lost on a non-INTJ!
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best not tell them I directly quoted from a news item about an unwilling para-sailing donkey then :wink:
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That's okay, I should have known better anyway
Nor do I. I would suggest that while the diagnosis was certainly not invented for the purpose of persecution, it presently has sufficiently vague symptoms so as to easily lend itself to such abuses. This is true of any diagnosis when lacking thorough research.
I think this example is a little too vague for your purpose. If not with 'morality' arguments, how would one decide that the woman is actually putting her health on the line with too much sexual activity, and what does it mean if she is throwing herself at everyone? Is this determined by observing that she is having so much sex that she literally cannot keep up with the rest of her life's responsibilities? This sounds like it would probably be a different disorder, like some kind of sex addiction, and I'm not sure how it would apply... but anyone who is intentionally abusing themselves or seeking abuse should seek help. (<my comment does not include masochists, as they actually seek pleasure, not abuse, through the sensation of pain)
definitely not what I'm saying.
I'm not saying INTJ's have BPD inherently, I'm asking if there seems to be a predisposition.
Comments are very much appreciated, as is constructive criticism. This isn't exactly "thorough" in any way (after all, it is a poll restricted to one website and one forum-thing -INTJ-) its merely to satisfy my own personal musings.
I did read the feminist argument against it, and it certainly does hold some weight. I've also read that INTJ's are more prone to personality/anxiety disorders. Not sure how true that is, but that is somewhat the point of this forum.
Maybe I'll post a similiar thread in ohh... say... ENFJ or ENTJ.
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I worded it wrong...I meant to say there would be no predisposition. There is a difference between feelings of emptiness and isolation which could probably come from the real isolation that INTJs may/may not suffer (and usually this comes down to choice). It does not follow that behaviours of a personality disorder will occur. I do not think that INTJs are more prone to mood disorders or any psycho-pathologies for that matter. They may be just aware of feeling different to the majority of the population and perhaps internalise it and even look for answers in mental illness? Who knows?
BPD has a lot of behaviours here that have not been laid out for people to fully grasp which have to be taken into account as well.
- frantic efforts to avoid real or perceived abandonment
- pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships, characterized by alternating between idealization and devaluation ("love-hate" relationships)
- extreme, persistently unstable self-image and sense of self
- impulsive behavior in at least two areas (such as spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating)
- recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or recurring acts of self-mutilation (such as cutting or burning oneself)
- unstable mood caused by brief but intense episodes of depression, irritability, or anxiety
- chronic feelings of emptiness
- inappropriate and intense anger, or difficulty controlling anger displayed through temper outbursts, physical fights, and/or sarcasm
These traits below found in DSM V for BPD would go completely against what is typical for INTJ traits within relationships.
INTJs emotional lability? What Is Emotional Lability?
ImpulsivitySelf-harm
Separation insecurity
emotional lability
Interpersonal relationships I could go through nearly all of these and say hmmmm that could be normal for anyone or give analysis to how they aren't typical INTJ traits.
- intolerance of aloneness
- abandonment, engulfment, annihilation fears
- counterdependency
- stormy relationships
- manipulativeness
- dependency
- devaluation
- masochism/sadism
- demandingness
- entitlement
around 80% of the sufferers are female (taken from different sites easily found on google).
There are only 0.005 to 1.5 sometimes estimations stretch to 2% of population of INTJ women. This has no relevance to any argument....just wanted to put those numbers out there...
oh okay makes sense. Yeah, good point.
The root of my question comes from looking up the symptoms and observing that a lot of those occur in my life, although most of them not to the extreme extent that would be necessary or a diagnosis.
And I appreciate the point that the DSM-IV is extremely flawed. Can't believe I nearly overlooked that. Yea,lets hope they fix that with DSM V.
Also I read a similiar thread at one point that made a case for the prevalence of schizoid and anxiety and personality disorders in INTJ's. This may be true, and it may not be. Other personality types may have a predisposition to other disorders, or similiar disorders that present differently (for some reason I know a lot of ENFJs and INFJs with serious panic disorders).
This is logical enough, a certain personality may be more likely to develop a disorder based solely on the characterizations of that personality.
I highly doubt that this is provable though, you would likely only be able to show a correlation.
The root of my question comes from looking up the symptoms and observing that a lot of those occur in my life, although most of them not to the extreme extent that would be necessary or a diagnosis.
And I appreciate the point that the DSM-IV is extremely flawed. Can't believe I nearly overlooked that. Yea,lets hope they fix that with DSM V.
Also I read a similiar thread at one point that made a case for the prevalence of schizoid and anxiety and personality disorders in INTJ's. This may be true, and it may not be. Other personality types may have a predisposition to other disorders, or similiar disorders that present differently (for some reason I know a lot of ENFJs and INFJs with serious panic disorders).
This is logical enough, a certain personality may be more likely to develop a disorder based solely on the characterizations of that personality.
I highly doubt that this is provable though, you would likely only be able to show a correlation.
Although BPD exhibits anger in situations that it shouldn't be there, most of the time? They really aren't triggered by stress or anything of that sort, and if it is triggered by that, it's always an overreaction.
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