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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I find that I'm really horrible at debating against overwhelming opposition. My arguments don't make sense, no one wants to hear me talk, and with everyone's attention on me, I feel extremely drained.
If by anything, what makes it worse is that teacher wants everyone to contribute, so by the time its my turn, I forget what I was supposed to say. And my brain runs a thousand miles per hour so everything gets messed up.
Then it comes to one-to-one debates. I'm actually really good at these, usually able to out-argue most people when it comes to one-to-one. However, it becomes increasingly apparent that in the presence of other people, I just suck horribly.
Take an argument about law for example. 7/8th of the class thought that the law should never be broken for the sake of one's own justice. I immediately argued against it, and found the arguments for their law very stupid (ie. never-ending chains of revenge arguments, irrelevant history facts about Hitler) and before I could explain the concept of the psychological term "passive agreement", I am always cut off.
And this happens every single time when I am with people. People cut me off, roll their eyes, and go on without listening to a word I say. Either that, or they laugh at me, which I have learned to deal with over time. And after all of that, I always feel like a really dumb person which doesn't make sense.
I think I debate best on online forums because of this. Anyone agree with me?
 

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Yeah, I really dislike debating against less-gifted humans with aggressive tactics, who presume that they are undoubtedly correct, who just want to stomp all over you with their often times limited, superficial logical ability.
They tend to fail to comprehend the true depth of my thought (and perhaps my intuitive insistence on speaking highly metaphorically and figuratively tends to throw them off when my thoughts are complex and unconventional to boot).
At any rate, I don't really care if people can't understand my points. It does slightly annoy me when my points aren't well-received, because people assume their position is that much more logical/feasible. Yet, I mostly just think to myself that my points are only truly invalid when the other person/people a) actually knew what I was saying, without a doubt and b) clearly presented a valid counter-argument which I felt was entirely sound.

Often times, people don't seem to understand what I'm saying and don't present clearly-reasoned counter-arguments.
So I just blow them off when they can't accept what I'm actually trying to say, but instead insist that they are correct.

In high school I was pretty top-notch. In college, thinking on the spot led to my choking more often than not.
So I really relate to the idea of doing poorly in live verbal debate. Some people can be fucking idiotic douchebags who presume they are right, without really giving you enough time to think through the arguments thoroughly. 1. Oration isn't our strength. 2. We need time to sit back and think through the details of arguments. We aren't always quick thinkers.

So don't sweat it. I can relate. And I'm far from some idiotic moron who can't properly fit two thoughts together.
We just need time and don't entirely express ourselves verbally, that's all. We're often much better at written expression and online debates, because we have time (sometimes) to actually thoroughly structure our arguments after much deep thought.
 

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I had a big long answer for you Ashitaria, but I got kicked from PerC or misclicked something. I'm too tired to type it again tonight. I will elaborate tomorrow :)
 

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You have heard to think of people naked when speaking publicly? It helps me to think of them as stupid. I look over at the guy that spends more time in front of the mirror than most girls I know. Then I look over at the girl trying to act dumber than she is to impress that guy. I mean, really? Then I think 'I would steal that guys candy if he had any.' I think 'I would steal all of these people candy'. Then I attack and pick them off like tin cans. Narcissist? Not more so than the guy or girl I used in my example. I treat the prof the same way if need. I don't think that they would quickly pick up your books if you dropped them. I bet they are in your class.

That is the short, less funny, and less educational version of my original post. :crazy:
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Somehow, I can just count on fellow INTPs to booste my self-esteem. Or not to feel so dumb. It does seem that every effort placed in these forums are to aid my self-insufficiency.

It also turned out that I did better on the APUSH test when all I did was guess, believe it or not. I got 60% on the quiz, 10% better than my usual score when I do study for it. And for the first time in my life, I managed to get an 80% on the APBio test. Things seem to be looking up after all.
 

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One on one, I can be pretty fucking intimidating if I believe I'm right. I have no problem shooting down inconsistent arguments. But if someone is being too stupid I might get frustrated and give up since you can't talk sense to a piece of cheese with holes in it.

In class discussions I only contribute if I believe I have the right answer, and I always rehearse what I'm going to say before hand. However it makes the adrenaline pump in me and I get a little shaky from having to assert myself. I don't always contribute, though, because it gets tiring being the only one to answer the teacher every fucking time and I sometimes will stay silent and wait for other people to say something so that the teacher can feel like they at least involved everyone in the class, zombies included.
 

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Yeah - I get this, even now. Used to frustrate me, and I find it very hard to get my opinion into words, even on paper.

My bit of advice when you go into the world of work - don't let these pitfalls put you off stating your opinion. State it, make sure those that matter have registered your opinion, then sit back, even if they don't act on your thoughts.

If you were wrong - it doesn't matter, and everyone continues happily.

If you were right - and this happens more times than you would believe - your reputation grows, your ideas are put into practice, your confidence grows....and everyone continues happily.

Win-Win.
 
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In our RMPS class, (Religious, Moral and Philosophical Studies) we sometimes have 'philosophical enquiry' discussions. The class move their chairs into a circle and we have to come up with questions to discuss based on a particular topic. A random item is passed round and you can only add your thoughts when you have that item. Now, this is a class that EVERYONE has to take and hardly anyone likes, so you can imagine the amount of shit people come out with.

One week, we were talking about the roots of racism. This was one of the discussions I decided to take part in. I think the argument was that Christianity is responsible for all racism because of the Curse of Ham. I didn't really have a strong opinion, but I joined in because there were so many people making stupid points and I just had to say something.

You don't have to be a christian to be racist. You don't have to have heard of the Curse of Ham to be racist. If your parents are racist, they might influence your views. This does not mean that everyone with racist parents will also be racist.

It was clear that nobody was listening to me and they continued to make fools of themselves. I couldn't be bothered with them anymore. Eventually, everyone realised that nobody was going to settle on anything and we moved on to the next topic.

:dry:
 

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And this happens every single time when I am with people. People cut me off, roll their eyes, and go on without listening to a word I say. Either that, or they laugh at me, which I have learned to deal with over time. And after all of that, I always feel like a really dumb person which doesn't make sense.
Yup I feel the same way all the time, especially with this group of colleagues that I find dumb. But every time I try to inject some logic into the conversation, they cut me off like I'm an idiot. One example is when this guy announced that the moon was bright at night because Earth was filled with street lights. At first I thought he was joking. Then I realised that he wasn't, and that everyone around us was admiring him for being the most intelligent person in the world.As dumb as he is, he's holding a much higher position than me. :dry:
 

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One week, we were talking about the roots of racism. This was one of the discussions I decided to take part in. I think the argument was that Christianity is responsible for all racism because of the Curse of Ham. I didn't really have a strong opinion, but I joined in because there were so many people making stupid points and I just had to say something.
Is this for real? Why the fuck was this not shot down as utter bullshit, immediately?

I tend to get really frustrated when people approach the topic of racism without understanding the sociological definition of it first. This would be the vast majority of fuckblorts who try to bring the importance back to white people and how any attempt to level the playing field is actually unfair. Minds like kicked wet shit, all of them.
 

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Yeah, as others have already said, the fact of the matter is that there are tons of dumb, ignorant people in the world, and unfortunately, a large number of them are very set in their ways of thinking and don't try to look at things in a new way.


If you're in high school, just try to do your best to remember that in a few years none of this will matter and you won't have to deal with those particular people again. Teenagers in general still have a lot of growing to do and maturity to gain, and between their parents and the messed up school system, it creates a big atmosphere of stupidity. Some of it goes away as you get older in life, and some of it doesn't.

Basically, don't let people like that get to you...they're not worth your time or energy, and don't let it make you feel like you're the inadequate or stupid one. Some people are obnoxious in making people feel that while they really have no idea what they're talking about.
 

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I can relate to this. I usually don't get my points across to people either, they miss the entire point I'm trying to make. What I hate the most is that they always interupt your explanations. It is like they have to be right at all costs, and when you start gaining in on them they resort to screaming and yelling. I used to give up and drop the argument, but lately I've been tired of having to surrender and I decided to never give up before my point was understood. I've had lots of people refer to me as an idiot and just walk away, still without even listening to the full explanation. I can't really be bothered about it anymore. If they don't listen when I explain the reasoning I will take that as an invitation to do it my way.

That's actually quite fun. If you are arguing with someone about how something is going to be done, and he calls you and idiot and ignores you, just do as you please, and he will be forced to listen when he see's that his immature attitude is detrimental for himself. That worked for me, I think it could work for you aswell!
 

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The nice thing about stupid people is that it's not hard to make them look stupid :). Lemme splain. I took a basic American Politics course last semester in which there were 3 team debates on various political issues. Out of like 15 people on my team, I spoke probably 80% of the time and left the other team more or less flabbergasted. How? My arguments were more or less bullshit, and rarely had much thought put into them, but so were my opponents' arguments. Now, it may be just because I go to a university full of morons, but I found that all I had to do was point out the holes in my opponents' arguments, and they'd just sit there looking embarrassed. Remember: it's more effective to convince your opponent to give up than to beat him outright. Don't make them listen, make them think. If they start to look or feel stupid, they'll back down. If you absolutely cannot get them to think enough to realize they're stupid, just give up. Arguing with complete idiots isn't worth the time or effort.
 

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How? My arguments were more or less bullshit, and rarely had much thought put into them, but so were my opponents' arguments.
You have a fanatic grasp of American politics. From this statement alone I would give you an A+ if I was the instructor.
 

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Then it comes to one-to-one debates. I'm actually really good at these, usually able to out-argue most people when it comes to one-to-one. However, it becomes increasingly apparent that in the presence of other people, I just suck horribly.
Ooh! I agree with you on this one!! And people laugh at me too, not because my argument sounds stupid, but because I sometimes make comments that surprise many people. I totally rock at one-on-one debates, but yeah, suck at the other kind. I don't like class discussions because I don't get as passionate as I can get when I'm face-to-face with someone about an issue. I also get really nervous even raising my hand and waiting for the teacher to call on me.

I still haven't found a solution to having all my ideas heard in a large classroom setting, but by now I have the feeling that I'm just going to have to deal with my INTP nature. But hear me out--I'm not saying I'm giving myself boundaries just because I know I'm an INTP, I'm saying I have other strengths that do not lie in class discussions that make me a great debater. A lot of times I have a problem identifying with my strengths and I always tend to focus on my weaknesses... But I guess that makes me want to be a better person than I was yesterday everyday. My point is, everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. Show 'em what you've got!! Good luck.
 

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I didn't read all of this,

but I have a friend who is an INTP. She gets this kind of reaction when debating in class or with normal people. But put her in a formal debate tournament, and she will walk away with multiple trophies. I think you guys probably have a gift that can be judged as too serious or aggressive day to day but which is valuable in the intellectual world.
 
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