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Discussion Starter #1
I have a really good INTJ friend that I've known for quite a while. I love his sense of humor, I value his knowledge and his input/outlook on life, we share the same beliefs, I like his little quirks that make him... him, but... he's an INTJ. Not that I don't like INTJs, I do. But I'm pretty sure they don't feel the same way about ESTJs. And I wanted to know what other INTJs have to say. He has said before that he was never interested in me ("At all." to quote him. he did apologize afterwards and say he realized how harsh that could sound after he said it...) and has led me to believe through some comments that I am not his type and never will be. For example, he told me something about a family member of his that really annoys him. I said something to the effect of "um, that sounds like me." to which he responded (I am paraphrasing) "I know. I just avoid those topics that would bring that up so we don't have a problem." In fact, he sometimes comes to me for relationship advice. I'm just wondering, should I give up on this idea?
 

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Nope, they can't.

 
Yes, with some hard work, they can. The chances of a relationship working out don't solely depend on MBTI, they depend on the individuals. MBTI is not "The Truth". It's just a theory. Remember that.

However, give up. He has already specified that he is not interested in you. THAT is "The Truth". INTJs aren't known for lying or changing their minds.
 

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And I wanted to know what other INTJs have to say. He has said before that he was never interested in me ("At all." to quote him.
It doesn't matter what we say. It matters what he said directly to you. He gave you a clear cut answer that doesn't have another interpretation more favorable to yourself.

I'm just wondering, should I give up on this idea?
Yes, you should give up.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Well, see he didn't specifically say still not. This was a while back and even back then he was talking in past tense, like about when we met. I dunno. Maybe you're right and I should just forget about it.
 

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I have a couple ESTJ friends, one who I roomed with for 3 years in college.

We're both pretty intense and have similar ways of dealing with problems, but the difference is that he doesn't deal well with pure hunches, and that's what I operate from. I work from vague mental images and associations, and you can't always put them into words, but they work. He's very detail-focused and point to point. I'm more "whatever, just make it work."

I don't know what the ESTJ's perspective is, but from mine they've put together this detailed description and while it makes sense, it totally misses the conceptual point of whatever we were doing. They come across as short-sighted to me even when they're right and have probably done a really good job at whatever they've done. I come across as arrogant when making suggestions without intending to at all. It's a pretty significant difference, and if it's the same for most INTJ and ESTJ I could see it being an issue at times in a romantic relationship.

We are very similar though, both blunt, not going to hurt each others' feelings by being honest. It's nice to know you can do that and not walk on eggshells. It's also easy to talk about things like career, finances, travel, etc where our interests overlap. I'd say in a romantic relationship with INTJ and ESTJ you'd want to focus more on these things/be with a more grounded, practical INTJ who doesn't mind not talking about chemistry. If that seems like a limitation, then maybe try a different type.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
@Figure I completely understand what you mean about detailed descriptions vs hunches. That's one problem we have. Not that it has been a serious problem up to this point, but we're only friends, so...
The coming across as shortsighted has me slightly concerned. As an ESTJ, I am very particular and I will put a lot of effort into my plans or whatever, and I need to know that that effort is appreciated and not written off as being unnecessary or short-sighted. Does that make sense? He does also often come across as arrogant, but that isn't really something that bothers me. much. It only does to the point where it often makes me feel inferior intellectually. I am aware he is incredibly intelligent, and I like that, but it makes me feel like I have don't really have anything intelligent to offer to any conversation we have. I was wondering if ESTJs seem like that to INTJs in general. So it is comforting to hear you think it is easy to talk where interests overlap and not that it is completely one-sided or anything.
 

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@bluekitdon And what would be a way to definitively find out if there is hope?
I would just ask if he's interested, but then again I've never been one for beating around the bush. If you're not comfortable with the very direct approach maybe something along the lines of have you ever wondered what it would have been like if we were a couple?
 

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I have a really good INTJ friend that I've known for quite a while. I love his sense of humor, I value his knowledge and his input/outlook on life, we share the same beliefs, I like his little quirks that make him... him, but... he's an INTJ. Not that I don't like INTJs, I do. But I'm pretty sure they don't feel the same way about ESTJs. And I wanted to know what other INTJs have to say. He has said before that he was never interested in me ("At all." to quote him. he did apologize afterwards and say he realized how harsh that could sound after he said it...) and has led me to believe through some comments that I am not his type and never will be. For example, he told me something about a family member of his that really annoys him. I said something to the effect of "um, that sounds like me." to which he responded (I am paraphrasing) "I know. I just avoid those topics that would bring that up so we don't have a problem." In fact, he sometimes comes to me for relationship advice. I'm just wondering, should I give up on this idea?
It sounds like he views your relationship as essentially platonic, especially regarding the fact that he asks you for relationship advice. If he had any other kind of feelings for you, you'd probably know it by now.

I would avoid trying to force this friendship into being something it's not meant to, whether in reality or fantasy.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
If he had any other kind of feelings for you, you'd probably know it by now.
Are INTJs really that open about it?

I would avoid trying to force this friendship into being something it's not meant to, whether in reality or fantasy.
I have been. I mean, trying not to force it. At least in reality. I am keeping things strictly platonic. Perhaps I should work on not trying to make it work in my fantasy as well.
 

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Are INTJs really that open about it?
We're not particularly open emotionally, but neither do we needlessly quell or obscure our feelings. We're not that dumb when it comes to emotions.

The fact that he's comfortable talking about other women with you is a strong indicator of where you stand. Think about it this way: romance is already a topic he's explored with you. If he had feelings for you, he's already had many opportunities to express them. The likelihood that he's harboring a secret crush on you becomes exponentially smaller with every romance-related conversation you have.

Then, of course, there's the fact the he's already stated in no uncertain terms that he's not interested in you. Speaking for myself, I don't magically develop an interest in a person when there wasn't one before, especially if I made that initial judgement after getting to know the person. Once I've solidly made up my mind about someone (and I try to do so only after getting enough info), I'm not likely to change it.

Perhaps I should work on not trying to make it work in my fantasy as well.
I would say that's probably more important, actually. Fantasies are more powerful for us Intuitive types, but Sensors aren't exempt from the fact that a situation that you build up in your mind can often become a situation in reality. You would do well to manage your tertiary Ne, and move on to a different fantasy.

Sorry, but I can't find another way around that for you.
 

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It depends what you mean by 'work'

The INTJ will get a heart attack sooner or later but until then, I guess you could say it would 'work'
 

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The coming across as shortsighted has me slightly concerned. As an ESTJ, I am very particular and I will put a lot of effort into my plans or whatever, and I need to know that that effort is appreciated and not written off as being unnecessary or short-sighted. Does that make sense?
Well, it's short sighted from our POV, but that doesn't mean it's objectively short-sighted. It's all a matter of perspective.

INTJ and ESTJ go about their worlds differently because of S and N. Their methods don't cause problems for them while off doing things on their own, but I think both can see possible issues with the others' way when they're together. Sometimes it's a legitimate concern, other times it's just a matter of preference.

For an example, I used to help my ESTJ roommate study for exams back in undergrad. He'd make notecards, re-write notes, and memorize them by repeating over and over. To me, that seems like a colossal waste of time because it's easier to just learn the underlying concept and intuitively apply it. I would suggest him do this, and he would agree and ask for more info, but then go on to just memorize what I said about a concept. It really would have been easier to just let him do it his way from the start and be supportive, but I didn't realize that until we'd already wasted time.

He does also often come across as arrogant, but that isn't really something that bothers me. much. It only does to the point where it often makes me feel inferior intellectually. I am aware he is incredibly intelligent, and I like that, but it makes me feel like I have don't really have anything intelligent to offer to any conversation we have. I was wondering if ESTJs seem like that to INTJs in general.
Bingo :) I get accused of that all the time, and again, it's not intentional at all. Things improve when both the ESTJ and INTJ realize that neither is intellectually inferior or superior, it's just a different way of going about things. We're both T's (and prefer Te, if you're familiar with the cognitive functions - we like facts, data, objectiveness) so our ways make sense to each other in one way, but the N and S difference makes it less familiar to both in another way.

I'm not sure if he really thinks this, maybe you can confirm as an ESTJ befriending an INTJ, but I get the sense he's always paranoid for me to nitpick something random he says or does.

So it is comforting to hear you think it is easy to talk where interests overlap and not that it is completely one-sided or anything.
Definitely. There's a brotherly connection in some ways, and we've even talked about doing business. If you stick to common topics, things can run smoothly.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
For an example, I used to help my ESTJ roommate study for exams back in undergrad. He'd make notecards, re-write notes, and memorize them by repeating over and over. To me, that seems like a colossal waste of time because it's easier to just learn the underlying concept and intuitively apply it.
That sounds like me and my N friends. I don't understand how they do it. I would rather just memorize everything.

Bingo :) I get accused of that all the time, and again, it's not intentional at all. Things improve when both the ESTJ and INTJ realize that neither is intellectually inferior or superior, it's just a different way of going about things.
That might be slightly difficult. I thought arrogance over their intelligence was a trait common to INTJs. I doubt he'll change that any time soon. And honestly, I would find it difficult not to think of him as intellectually superior. All his friends know he is a genius.

We're both T's (and prefer Te, if you're familiar with the cognitive functions - we like facts, data, objectiveness) so our ways make sense to each other in one way, but the N and S difference makes it less familiar to both in another way.
I have started recently (and by recently I mean maybe 24-48 hours ago) going through the cognitive functions and trying to learn about them. After he mentioned Fi in a conversation to me and I realized I really had no idea what he was talking about. So I'm still learning, but yes, I do know what they are.

I'm not sure if he really thinks this, maybe you can confirm as an ESTJ befriending an INTJ, but I get the sense he's always paranoid for me to nitpick something random he says or does.
Well, I'm not sure I can speak for all ESTJs, but yes. I do tend to think that when I'm talking to him.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
We're not particularly open emotionally, but neither do we needlessly quell or obscure our feelings. We're not that dumb when it comes to emotions.
I wasn't trying to say you were dumb when it comes to emotions. lol. Just not usually as expressive, in my experience.

The fact that he's comfortable talking about other women with you is a strong indicator of where you stand. Think about it this way: romance is already a topic he's explored with you. If he had feelings for you, he's already had many opportunities to express them. The likelihood that he's harboring a secret crush on you becomes exponentially smaller with every romance-related conversation you have.
Helpful to know, though it's not exactly what I wanted to hear. I wasn't exactly wondering if he was "harboring a secret crush" as much as if it could ever work, in general. I'm sure he doesn't see me that way now, but I wasn't ruling out the possibility of it in the future.

Once I've solidly made up my mind about someone (and I try to do so only after getting enough info), I'm not likely to change it.
...Which I see you just did. lol. To be honest, I had tried not even considering the whole thing myself after he told me he had never been interested in me and would talk to me about other girls he was interested in. And at first it was strictly platonic on my end, as well. I don't really know what happened.
 

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I have a really good INTJ friend that I've known for quite a while. I love his sense of humor, I value his knowledge and his input/outlook on life, we share the same beliefs, I like his little quirks that make him... him, but... he's an INTJ. Not that I don't like INTJs, I do. But I'm pretty sure they don't feel the same way about ESTJs. And I wanted to know what other INTJs have to say. He has said before that he was never interested in me ("At all." to quote him. he did apologize afterwards and say he realized how harsh that could sound after he said it...) and has led me to believe through some comments that I am not his type and never will be. For example, he told me something about a family member of his that really annoys him. I said something to the effect of "um, that sounds like me." to which he responded (I am paraphrasing) "I know. I just avoid those topics that would bring that up so we don't have a problem." In fact, he sometimes comes to me for relationship advice. I'm just wondering, should I give up on this idea?
If you want to have a chance, offer sex-buddies and see how it goes from that.
Assuming he's single, if he's not i don't know why you even bother after he clearly told you what he did.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
@Snapple He is single. I'm not the home-wrecker type. Or... boyfriend-stealing type or whatever. Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't think that will help in our situation.
 

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Hi, I'm an INTJ and my boyfriend is an ESTJ.

I think a relationship can definitely work between an INTJ and an ESTJ. It may not come as naturally as with some types.

We have definitely had our ups and downs. ESTJ's can be a bit overbearing. They think there way is correct and they feel VERY strongly about it. But if you're in a relationship where both people have respect for each other, are willing to communicate, and try to work things out it can work. I rule the relationship with a heavy-hand. I think he knows that if he doesn't take my views into respect, I will definitely have a problem and if something is bothering me I point it out and we try to work it out.

I'm also accepting of his stubbornness and his views that differ from mine. I can understand why he thinks of the things the way he does, and I respect that. He's aware that he can be stubborn, so that helps a bit too. :p

Regarding the lack of Ni or Ne my boyfriend has, I've just learned to put up with it. I can't really have a terribly deep conversation with him. Even if I do, there isn't much opportunity for exploring ideas because he's rather set in his ways. I've learned to put up with this. I think this is really a deal breaker for a lot of intuitive types with sensors. Intuitives and Sensors really do speak a different language in some ways.

Regarding your situation, I think it takes a special kind of INTJ and ESTJ to make it work. Both need to try to be open-minded, accepting of their different views, communicate well, and really want the relationship to work. INTJ may face a lack of depth or interest in the ESTJ's conversations. The INTJ may also feel like the ESTJ is inconsiderate or too set in their own ways.

I'm not really sure what an ESTJ would find flawed in an INTJ...We're just too perfect. ;)
 
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