Personality Cafe banner

Can a relationship between an INTJ and an ESTJ work?

[INTJ] 
12K views 30 replies 15 participants last post by  IniquitousMuse 
#1 ·
I have a really good INTJ friend that I've known for quite a while. I love his sense of humor, I value his knowledge and his input/outlook on life, we share the same beliefs, I like his little quirks that make him... him, but... he's an INTJ. Not that I don't like INTJs, I do. But I'm pretty sure they don't feel the same way about ESTJs. And I wanted to know what other INTJs have to say. He has said before that he was never interested in me ("At all." to quote him. he did apologize afterwards and say he realized how harsh that could sound after he said it...) and has led me to believe through some comments that I am not his type and never will be. For example, he told me something about a family member of his that really annoys him. I said something to the effect of "um, that sounds like me." to which he responded (I am paraphrasing) "I know. I just avoid those topics that would bring that up so we don't have a problem." In fact, he sometimes comes to me for relationship advice. I'm just wondering, should I give up on this idea?
 
#2 ·
Nope, they can't.

 
Yes, with some hard work, they can. The chances of a relationship working out don't solely depend on MBTI, they depend on the individuals. MBTI is not "The Truth". It's just a theory. Remember that.

However, give up. He has already specified that he is not interested in you. THAT is "The Truth". INTJs aren't known for lying or changing their minds.
 
#4 ·
And I wanted to know what other INTJs have to say. He has said before that he was never interested in me ("At all." to quote him.
It doesn't matter what we say. It matters what he said directly to you. He gave you a clear cut answer that doesn't have another interpretation more favorable to yourself.

I'm just wondering, should I give up on this idea?
Yes, you should give up.
 
#7 ·
I have a couple ESTJ friends, one who I roomed with for 3 years in college.

We're both pretty intense and have similar ways of dealing with problems, but the difference is that he doesn't deal well with pure hunches, and that's what I operate from. I work from vague mental images and associations, and you can't always put them into words, but they work. He's very detail-focused and point to point. I'm more "whatever, just make it work."

I don't know what the ESTJ's perspective is, but from mine they've put together this detailed description and while it makes sense, it totally misses the conceptual point of whatever we were doing. They come across as short-sighted to me even when they're right and have probably done a really good job at whatever they've done. I come across as arrogant when making suggestions without intending to at all. It's a pretty significant difference, and if it's the same for most INTJ and ESTJ I could see it being an issue at times in a romantic relationship.

We are very similar though, both blunt, not going to hurt each others' feelings by being honest. It's nice to know you can do that and not walk on eggshells. It's also easy to talk about things like career, finances, travel, etc where our interests overlap. I'd say in a romantic relationship with INTJ and ESTJ you'd want to focus more on these things/be with a more grounded, practical INTJ who doesn't mind not talking about chemistry. If that seems like a limitation, then maybe try a different type.
 
#8 ·
@Figure I completely understand what you mean about detailed descriptions vs hunches. That's one problem we have. Not that it has been a serious problem up to this point, but we're only friends, so...
The coming across as shortsighted has me slightly concerned. As an ESTJ, I am very particular and I will put a lot of effort into my plans or whatever, and I need to know that that effort is appreciated and not written off as being unnecessary or short-sighted. Does that make sense? He does also often come across as arrogant, but that isn't really something that bothers me. much. It only does to the point where it often makes me feel inferior intellectually. I am aware he is incredibly intelligent, and I like that, but it makes me feel like I have don't really have anything intelligent to offer to any conversation we have. I was wondering if ESTJs seem like that to INTJs in general. So it is comforting to hear you think it is easy to talk where interests overlap and not that it is completely one-sided or anything.
 
#15 ·
The coming across as shortsighted has me slightly concerned. As an ESTJ, I am very particular and I will put a lot of effort into my plans or whatever, and I need to know that that effort is appreciated and not written off as being unnecessary or short-sighted. Does that make sense?
Well, it's short sighted from our POV, but that doesn't mean it's objectively short-sighted. It's all a matter of perspective.

INTJ and ESTJ go about their worlds differently because of S and N. Their methods don't cause problems for them while off doing things on their own, but I think both can see possible issues with the others' way when they're together. Sometimes it's a legitimate concern, other times it's just a matter of preference.

For an example, I used to help my ESTJ roommate study for exams back in undergrad. He'd make notecards, re-write notes, and memorize them by repeating over and over. To me, that seems like a colossal waste of time because it's easier to just learn the underlying concept and intuitively apply it. I would suggest him do this, and he would agree and ask for more info, but then go on to just memorize what I said about a concept. It really would have been easier to just let him do it his way from the start and be supportive, but I didn't realize that until we'd already wasted time.

He does also often come across as arrogant, but that isn't really something that bothers me. much. It only does to the point where it often makes me feel inferior intellectually. I am aware he is incredibly intelligent, and I like that, but it makes me feel like I have don't really have anything intelligent to offer to any conversation we have. I was wondering if ESTJs seem like that to INTJs in general.
Bingo :) I get accused of that all the time, and again, it's not intentional at all. Things improve when both the ESTJ and INTJ realize that neither is intellectually inferior or superior, it's just a different way of going about things. We're both T's (and prefer Te, if you're familiar with the cognitive functions - we like facts, data, objectiveness) so our ways make sense to each other in one way, but the N and S difference makes it less familiar to both in another way.

I'm not sure if he really thinks this, maybe you can confirm as an ESTJ befriending an INTJ, but I get the sense he's always paranoid for me to nitpick something random he says or does.

So it is comforting to hear you think it is easy to talk where interests overlap and not that it is completely one-sided or anything.
Definitely. There's a brotherly connection in some ways, and we've even talked about doing business. If you stick to common topics, things can run smoothly.
 
#16 ·
For an example, I used to help my ESTJ roommate study for exams back in undergrad. He'd make notecards, re-write notes, and memorize them by repeating over and over. To me, that seems like a colossal waste of time because it's easier to just learn the underlying concept and intuitively apply it.
That sounds like me and my N friends. I don't understand how they do it. I would rather just memorize everything.

Bingo :) I get accused of that all the time, and again, it's not intentional at all. Things improve when both the ESTJ and INTJ realize that neither is intellectually inferior or superior, it's just a different way of going about things.
That might be slightly difficult. I thought arrogance over their intelligence was a trait common to INTJs. I doubt he'll change that any time soon. And honestly, I would find it difficult not to think of him as intellectually superior. All his friends know he is a genius.

We're both T's (and prefer Te, if you're familiar with the cognitive functions - we like facts, data, objectiveness) so our ways make sense to each other in one way, but the N and S difference makes it less familiar to both in another way.
I have started recently (and by recently I mean maybe 24-48 hours ago) going through the cognitive functions and trying to learn about them. After he mentioned Fi in a conversation to me and I realized I really had no idea what he was talking about. So I'm still learning, but yes, I do know what they are.

I'm not sure if he really thinks this, maybe you can confirm as an ESTJ befriending an INTJ, but I get the sense he's always paranoid for me to nitpick something random he says or does.
Well, I'm not sure I can speak for all ESTJs, but yes. I do tend to think that when I'm talking to him.
 
#11 ·
It sounds like he views your relationship as essentially platonic, especially regarding the fact that he asks you for relationship advice. If he had any other kind of feelings for you, you'd probably know it by now.

I would avoid trying to force this friendship into being something it's not meant to, whether in reality or fantasy.
 
#12 ·
If he had any other kind of feelings for you, you'd probably know it by now.
Are INTJs really that open about it?

I would avoid trying to force this friendship into being something it's not meant to, whether in reality or fantasy.
I have been. I mean, trying not to force it. At least in reality. I am keeping things strictly platonic. Perhaps I should work on not trying to make it work in my fantasy as well.
 
#18 ·
If you want to have a chance, offer sex-buddies and see how it goes from that.
Assuming he's single, if he's not i don't know why you even bother after he clearly told you what he did.
 
#20 ·
Hi, I'm an INTJ and my boyfriend is an ESTJ.

I think a relationship can definitely work between an INTJ and an ESTJ. It may not come as naturally as with some types.

We have definitely had our ups and downs. ESTJ's can be a bit overbearing. They think there way is correct and they feel VERY strongly about it. But if you're in a relationship where both people have respect for each other, are willing to communicate, and try to work things out it can work. I rule the relationship with a heavy-hand. I think he knows that if he doesn't take my views into respect, I will definitely have a problem and if something is bothering me I point it out and we try to work it out.

I'm also accepting of his stubbornness and his views that differ from mine. I can understand why he thinks of the things the way he does, and I respect that. He's aware that he can be stubborn, so that helps a bit too. :p

Regarding the lack of Ni or Ne my boyfriend has, I've just learned to put up with it. I can't really have a terribly deep conversation with him. Even if I do, there isn't much opportunity for exploring ideas because he's rather set in his ways. I've learned to put up with this. I think this is really a deal breaker for a lot of intuitive types with sensors. Intuitives and Sensors really do speak a different language in some ways.

Regarding your situation, I think it takes a special kind of INTJ and ESTJ to make it work. Both need to try to be open-minded, accepting of their different views, communicate well, and really want the relationship to work. INTJ may face a lack of depth or interest in the ESTJ's conversations. The INTJ may also feel like the ESTJ is inconsiderate or too set in their own ways.

I'm not really sure what an ESTJ would find flawed in an INTJ...We're just too perfect. ;)
 
#24 ·
As far as your particular situation is concerned - how old is he and how long ago did he make the "At all" comment?
He's about a year older than I am. 21. And that would have been several months ago. Maybe 4 months? It feels like it's been longer. =P And as mentioned earlier, when he said that, he was referring to when we started talking/becoming friends, which would have been about 8 months ago, even though we've technically known each other a year now. Yeah, doesn't sound like that long, I know.
 
#22 ·
I'm gonna go against the grain here and say this:

My good INTJ friend and I had a similar relationship where he and I would talk to eachother about our romantic relationships with others. It was purely platonic. A few times during our friendship he took my "being nice" as flirting and quickly "put me in my place" (was so annoying because I was NOT flirting with him). He told me several times "he is not interested in me romantically" - which was just damn rude because the implication was that I was - when I wasn't. I was in a long-term relationship and found that implication very offensive because I was loyal to my partner.

However, it changed when I got out of my long term relationship and we developed feelings for each other in a romantic sense. Before that time, he told me he had never considered me "as an eligible woman" because I was in a relationship. We ended up together in a romantic relationship but it was short-lived, but don't let that dissuade you.

So if you want a relationship with him, you're going to have to get him to shift his label of you in his head, because right now you are "friend only".

Also, that he confides in you about relationships and feelings, and all of that, I would say you are pretty important to him as a friend and that there is already a basis of trust there, so the leap to relationship with you as opposed to some stranger is going to be smaller.

If I was you i'd be direct with him and say "hey, I like you - and see potential here, because of x, y, z reason". Let him respond, and take it from there.
 
#25 ·
So if you want a relationship with him, you're going to have to get him to shift his label of you in his head, because right now you are "friend only".
I was going to ask how you suggest doing that, but I see you already answered that. I know this is the oldest excuse in the book, but I'm really afraid of it hurting our friendship if he doesn't see it the same way. Which, I'm almost positive he doesn't at this point. Is there any way I could open his eyes/mind to the possibility without "throwing myself on him"? I definitely believe in honesty and telling the other person what you're feeling, but I don't believe in stupidity; and at this point, I feel it would be stupid for me to just randomly drop that on him and say, "Hi so I actually kind of really like you as more than a friend."

Also, that he confides in you about relationships and feelings, and all of that, I would say you are pretty important to him as a friend and that there is already a basis of trust there, so the leap to relationship with you as opposed to some stranger is going to be smaller.
Yes and no. One would tend to think so, but he has asked at least three girls he barely knew out since I have known him (that's the kind of relationship advice he's asked me about) and none of them end well, which makes me hurt for him. Every time that happens he beats himself up about it and I wish there were something I could do or say, but I'm not really good at knowing what to say in these situations..

If I was you i'd be direct with him and say "hey, I like you - and see potential here, because of x, y, z reason". Let him respond, and take it from there.
I mostly already responded to this earlier. And trust me, there is nothing I would rather do than this. But... I think it would come as a shock to him and he wouldn't respond the same way and it would just be awkward.
 
#23 ·
Do not expect him to become your ideal partner and do not try to make him into your ideal partner. Both of you must meet at the middle and decide to accept the other exactly as they are for it to work.
 
#26 ·
So, even though it seems like the odds are horribly stacked against you with this particular INTJ, if you are dead set on a relationship with him... the best advice I can give is to simply tell him point blank how you feel.

You're going to feel stupid.
You're almost certainly going to be rejected, and then it's going to be awkward.
You're going to feel awful for a little while afterwards.

BUT, you are going to plant a pretty solid seed in the INTJs mind about a relationship with you. He's going to turn it around in his head and analyze all of the possibilities, pros, and cons, or a relationship with you. Give him some time to do this, and then follow up with him later, and ask him if he thinks a relationship might work out, and see whether or not he wants to try. If you're lucky, he'll give it a shot, and you'll have your chance to impress him romantically and go from there. If he says no again, then there is basically 0 chance at a relationship and you need to accept the facts and move on.

However, and this is a pretty important point that you need to think about... it's extremely likely that this INTJ has already went through these steps already, and has already decided that they don't want a relationship with you. I wouldn't tell someone I was completely uninterested in a relationship with them unless I meant it and had put considerable thought behind it already. Changing my mind once it's been made up would be a major uphill battle. You're going to need to find out why you are stuck in the "friend zone" with him, and what criteria need to be met to get you out of the friend zone... not an easy thing to figure out with an INTJ. I'm assuming you have do not have a boyfriend, so that's not holding you there. Most of the other criteria are probably going to be abstract concepts like: attractive? intelligent? chemistry? personality?... None of these things are things that you are really going to be able to "fix" to get out of the friend zone.

My personal opinion is to cut your losses now, as success seems highly unlikely and I'm not a risk taker. But, if you want to take the risk, and you are dead set on trying to enter a relationship, the advice above is the best I think I can do. Good luck!
 
#28 ·
It could work, because I have an uncle who is ESTJ, and his wife is likely INTJ. They have been married for more than thirty years. Their son, an ISTP, is working as a computer programmer in California.
 
#29 ·
Is there any way I could open his eyes/mind to the possibility without "throwing myself on him"? I definitely believe in honesty and telling the other person what you're feeling, but I don't believe in stupidity; and at this point, I feel it would be stupid for me to just randomly drop that on him and say, "Hi so I actually kind of really like you as more than a friend."
I think you're missing an important point. INTJs most value honesty. You are not being honest because you are harbouring feelings for him which you are not expressing, this equates to dishonesty (to some extent, at least). The only way to open his mind about it is as @Fallen Empire said and express bluntly and honestly what you are feeling, and what you want. The worst he can say is no, you really are not risking as much as you think. The only thing you are risking is more ambiguity and a friendship which is not totally open and honest.

The relationship might be awkward for a few weeks but it will recover if it's a mature respectful relationship, and I even think that it could be enhanced because of the honesty - even if you don't end up in a relationship.

I'd suggest that you have rationalised being open and honest about it as stupidity but it's not. It's a fear response - afraid of rejection, afraid that the relationship will change for the worst, etc. But really, the only thing you will lose by doing so is ambiguity. I would tell him bluntly and then let him think about it for a while and get back to you. Don't be too demanding.

I think sometimes INTJs will rule relationships out because they don't think it's possible to pursue. That is, they might rule out a relationship with you because they think you might never consider one with them. The only way to change this is to show him it's a possibility.
 
#31 ·
I think sometimes INTJs will rule relationships out because they don't think it's possible to pursue. That is, they might rule out a relationship with you because they think you might never consider one with them. The only way to change this is to show him it's a possibility.
I do that all the time with most of the men I meet and also assume that they will not be able to handle my honesty and unintentional snarkiness! However, the ESTJ I mentioned in the previous post does not give up 'liking me' and puts up with my bluntness and cold shoulder all the time...THAT is why I let myself start thinking about 'possibilities'. Oh and I also failed to mention that most people would consider him unattractive compared to me but I don't care! :)
 
#30 ·
I don't know how things are going for you right now but both Delilah and Fallen Empire have a point. Honesty is almost never bad with an INTJ. I have a lot of male friends and whenever things start to appear 'more than friends' with any of them I ask them whether or not they are interested in me romantically and if they are I give them two choices:

1.) Agree to continue being friends which actually works out great and totally not awkward--for me that is.
2.) Stop communication if they cannot handle a platonic relationship.

Other than that there still may be hope that sometime things might turn out differently in the future IF you are willing to risk the wait. INTJs usually get serious about marriage at a much later age then other types. Personally, I like to have relationships if I have the time but they are never very serious (more of an amusement). There is an ESTJ male that is really into me and I think that someday I might end up marrying him even though I have 'flings' with other men. However, I really do not want to rush things so I am just keeping him as a friend for the moment.

True, our sense of humor is slightly off. He isn't very 'deep' but I see more development in this area as he ages. Yes I do sometimes think he is not as intelligent (I know its just the Ni-Si difference) but I've come to accept it and have other people who I can have deep Ni discussions with. However, what I value about him far outweighs the negatives. He is dependable, VERY hardworking, caring, honest, direct--I never have to guess whether he is trying to imply anything because he is such an open book. He is a little bossy but I like that because I need a man who can stand up to me. It might be difficult in your situation though because the gender is switched but INTJs are not big on the whole gender role sexism thing like ESTJs. I also love how I can relax and let him take care of any social interaction. To tell you the truth I don't understand why he likes me so much after all these years.:crazy: (We are still both under 25 though)

Anyway, be honest and there still might be hope. I wouldn't be so quick as to say 'cut your losses'. What I stated previously is just a shortened version of a long list of pros I have about my ESTJ. The biggest factor in the INTJ changing his mind would be seeing the pros of having a relationship with you. Because we tend to view every decision and step in our lives as benefit vs no benefit, you will need to appeal to the more logical side of him. Hope this helps!
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top