Personality Cafe banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,691 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I don't know if this has anything to do with functions or it's more Enneagram related but through these two aspects of my daily life I just cannot see how I can be the T which everyone says I am, and from reading descriptions I think seems most likely. But I must admit that for all my reading around the topic I still can't understand functions.

Firstly my physical appearance. Logically I know that girls who make an effort to look good are more attractive and I know that how my personality presents is not attractive (too quiet, lack of emotional expression, walking straight past people I know without recognising them...) so I need to compensate if I'm to have any chance of finding a partner. Yet I don't do it. It's not "me", I'm too deep for this superficial crap and I have better things to do (read: I'd rather do nothing) than to shave on a daily basis, for example. I feel that I should be appreciated for who I am, although I know this isn't how the world works.

Second, my job situation. I have a job which is beneath me and very dull but I can do it in half of my hours and spend the rest of the time doing interesting system development work so overall it's not so bad. Yet I'm reluctant to get a more fitting job having seen so many people moaning how they are overworked. I don't need the money because I'm not a materialist so career development is not "me", I can't bring myself to do it. But logically I know I have plenty of unused capacity and that I'm immune to stress (no-one dies from a missed deadline, therefore if the expectations are unreasonable I'll have informed my boss in advance it's not possible) so I should seek a more challenging role. Not to mention that having more money to buy a house, car, holidays abroad or whatever cannot be a bad thing.

So are Ts actually logical or this just another bad stereotype? Or is this logically analysing the situation enough to confirm Tness? Or maybe I am a T but have a dominant perceiving function suppressing it?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,025 Posts
Everyone has emotions. Being a Thinker doesn't mean that you aren't affected by your emotions; it means that you don't trust them to make decisions for you, preferring to rely on logical reasoning instead. Everything you think and do is going to be changed by your emotional state at the time and your emotional connection to the situation; a Thinker's use of logic is an attempt to clear our minds and try to be objective, though real objectivity is, of course, an illusion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,691 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
It's not the lack of emotion that make me think I'm a T, it's the knowing logically I should do something yet not doing it making me doubt it. It's not like these are transitory things because they've been in my life for years so emotional fluctuation isn't a factor.

It seems so Fi - progression and shallowness are "bad", I'm not doing it. But any way you look at it logically I'm just being stupid :laughing:
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,025 Posts
It's not the lack of emotion that make me think I'm a T, it's the knowing logically I should do something yet not doing it making me doubt it. It's not like these are transitory things because they've been in my life for years so emotional fluctuation isn't a factor.

It seems so Fi - progression and shallowness are "bad", I'm not doing it. But any way you look at it logically I'm just being stupid :laughing:
No, that's just fear of failure talking, which is common to both thinkers and feelers. The best thing to do is ignore that voice of fear, when it's illogical to do so; it's not always easy to do, but it gets you in a much better place when you do it.
 

·
Maid of Time
549 sx/sp
Joined
·
14,749 Posts
It's not the lack of emotion that make me think I'm a T, it's the knowing logically I should do something yet not doing it making me doubt it. It's not like these are transitory things because they've been in my life for years so emotional fluctuation isn't a factor. It seems so Fi - progression and shallowness are "bad", I'm not doing it. But any way you look at it logically I'm just being stupid :laughing:
Realistically, there is a difference between knowing what to do rationally and actually doing it. The latter is something is acquired not through thinking (necessarily) but from life experience and maturity. That is not meant as a personal dig at all, just a general truth of life that we all go through. I remember being really frustrated with myself because my mind was always so far ahead of the rest of me... I could see things I should do but just not be at a point in life where I could commit to doing them.

As far as what you describe in the OP, it seems to be pretty common ITP behavior, tbh.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
270 Posts
As a basic definition, thinkers take a dispassionate approach to decision making, prizing logic and objective criteria; on the other hand, feelers take their own values and beliefs or that of others into account when making decisions over the use of logic.

It is about how you arrive at the decisions and not the decisions per se that reveal what disposition you have.

It is logical to be pragmatic. A thinker might be pragmatic for its own sake, taking only what is useful and actively discarding what is not.

A thinker may be less materialistic if he is comfortable with working just to fulfil his basic needs in life.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
499 Posts
I dont know your type, but you sound like the typical INTP.

You know what's good for you, but you dont do it. It doesn't have to do with the T, it has to do with the P.

By the way, as a thinker, you need to adjust your mindset first.

1. Looks isn't just superficial. It's a valid look into who you are as a person. Eg. If you are unshaven, dress like a mess, then you probably have bad higene and live in a pig sty. It's pretty understandable if girls dont want to be with a guy like that.

2. The job you're doing isnt beneath you, it's exactly what you deserve. There are smart people who flip burgers because they're too lazy to realize their potential. If you dont work for it, you dont deserve a better job, simple as that.

Just because you're a T does not make you immune to makimg bad decisions, nor does it make you a go getter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,691 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
As far as what you describe in the OP, it seems to be pretty common ITP behavior, tbh.
I dont know your type, but you sound like the typical INTP.
Absolutely - if we're going by stereotype behaviour you'd be crazy to type me as anything other than ITP :laughing:

No, that's just fear of failure talking, which is common to both thinkers and feelers. The best thing to do is ignore that voice of fear, when it's illogical to do so; it's not always easy to do, but it gets you in a much better place when you do it.
This is interesting and it's something I've considered - faking "values" to camouflage an inate fear of failure. It does seem likely. I have an SP 3 like attitude to this, I feel I can succeed in whatever I want but I have no idea what I want or who I am so I instead do whatever will get me recognition from an individual whose opinion I value (not many...). Either that or I'm a 5 over-reading and over-analysing at the expense of doing anything.

Realistically, there is a difference between knowing what to do rationally and actually doing it. The latter is something is acquired not through thinking (necessarily) but from life experience and maturity. That is not meant as a personal dig at all, just a general truth of life that we all go through. I remember being really frustrated with myself because my mind was always so far ahead of the rest of me... I could see things I should do but just not be at a point in life where I could commit to doing them.
Harsh but true :happy: I've seen death and confronted my own, but other than that my life is lacking greatly in experience. The thing is, I am at a place in my life where I could do anything and have been for years. I don't know if it's frustrating as much as amusing - I'm pretty much laughing at myself, but not in a negative way.

As a basic definition, thinkers take a dispassionate approach to decision making, prizing logic and objective criteria; on the other hand, feelers take their own values and beliefs or that of others into account when making decisions over the use of logic.

It is about how you arrive at the decisions and not the decisions per se that reveal what disposition you have.
This is in line with my thinking in the OP - I appear to have values against shallowness and materialism which are interfering with the obvious logical course of action, I cannot switch them off. The question is, are they "values" in an F sense or something else?

@alphacat - do you ever feel the limit of words? We all have to use them but to me they're crap. Everything you said is true and somewhat relevant but you've responded to what I've written as you read it, which isn't quite right. Extremely bad appearance is obviously an issue but I was talking about going the extra mile to impress and deserving a better job is irrelavent when I was talking about ability.

Bad decisions are clearly XXXX behaviour :laughing:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
270 Posts
This is in line with my thinking in the OP - I appear to have values against shallowness and materialism which are interfering with the obvious logical course of action, I cannot switch them off. The question is, are they "values" in an F sense or something else?
I think you meant a strong opinion against rather than values. Values is what an individual treasure most, like harmony, relationships, etc. I don’t think it says anything about what you disdain.

These values can be aligned with logic or not. For example, a lot of people like to say “as my <relative>, you ought to have sided me”. Dispassionate thinkers will stand up for justice over fairness, as such, even if it was their beloved wife, they will probably be thinking (or saying) that they will side with who is right, not who is closer by relation. Thinking over feeling.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,691 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
I think you meant a strong opinion against rather than values. Values is what an individual treasure most, like harmony, relationships, etc. I don’t think it says anything about what you disdain.
So the "treasured value" would be authenticity, the opposite of playing along with social expectation or hiding behind a chosen image. To judge anything as "good" you must judge it's opposite as "bad" :happy:

These values can be aligned with logic or not. For example, a lot of people like to say “as my <relative>, you ought to have sided me”. Dispassionate thinkers will stand up for justice over fairness, as such, even if it was their beloved wife, they will probably be thinking (or saying) that they will side with who is right, not who is closer by relation. Thinking over feeling.
While most of the time I'd see both sides and (if I'm in the mood, which isn't often) attempting to get them to see the limitations of their side of the argument. This is a new thing though, I used to be very black and white but I don't remember whether it was logic or feeling motivated :frustrating:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,124 Posts
It's not the lack of emotion that make me think I'm a T, it's the knowing logically I should do something yet not doing it making me doubt it. It's not like these are transitory things because they've been in my life for years so emotional fluctuation isn't a factor.
Sounds like Ti. Te is better at acting
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
270 Posts
So the "treasured value" would be authenticity, the opposite of playing along with social expectation or hiding behind a chosen image. To judge anything as "good" you must judge it's opposite as "bad" :happy:
It is no doubt a possible candidate as one’s values, but is it yours? That, you have to find out from yourself. Values, in contrast to preferences, are highly internalised and are lasting. It is likely to evoke strong emotions when violated and it is unlikely for an individual to compromise on his values.

While most of the time I'd see both sides and (if I'm in the mood, which isn't often) attempting to get them to see the limitations of their side of the argument. This is a new thing though, I used to be very black and white but I don't remember whether it was logic or feeling motivated :frustrating:
Heh, and some of them would go further to accuse us of being heartless by logically post-analysing the situation instead of sympathising with them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,382 Posts
It seems so Fi - progression and shallowness are "bad", I'm not doing it. But any way you look at it logically I'm just being stupid
Fi is not any of these things - there are so many misconceptions about Fi by Ti doms who truly don't understand it (and they shouldn't, since it's their last function), and mistake inferior Fe for it (so via inferior Fe, they're rebellious against social norms, but this has nothing to do with having an intensely personal values system like that attributed to Fi - it's that they legitimately feel shallow engaging in inferior Fe, since it is a shallowly experienced function in them, due to being the least conscious, and they project it onto the environment if they aren't comfortable enough with it - no person doesn't project their inferior function at all, so it's natural). Fi is pretty much interpreting your existence via an individualistic system of feelings reasoning - you are your own feelings, essentially, if you are an Fi dom - they identify with their own feelings the most strongly of all of the types - these govern their lives as much as breathing does (although a lot of them don't like to admit to this).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Loveternity

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,382 Posts
Ts think logically, but this doesn't guarantee that they're particularly stunning at it (good enough for it to be reliable to them though as a natural reflex of thinking, so to speak).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Loveternity

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,691 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
It is no doubt a possible candidate as one’s values, but is it yours? That, you have to find out from yourself. Values, in contrast to preferences, are highly internalised and are lasting. It is likely to evoke strong emotions when violated and it is unlikely for an individual to compromise on his values.
*looks inside* - *sees big void* - *runs away feeling worthless* :unsure:

Heh, and some of them would go further to accuse us of being heartless by logically post-analysing the situation instead of sympathising with them.
This doesn't happen. But then, I don't speak up often so it wouldn't. If two people are having a heated discussion I usually disappear quietly and leave them to it.

Fi is not any of these things - there are so many misconceptions about Fi by Ti doms who truly don't understand it (and they shouldn't, since it's their last function), and mistake inferior Fe for it (so via inferior Fe, they're rebellious against social norms, but this has nothing to do with having an intensely personal values system like that attributed to Fi - it's that they legitimately feel shallow engaging in inferior Fe, since it is a shallowly experienced function in them, due to being the least conscious, and they project it onto the environment if they aren't comfortable enough with it - no person doesn't project their inferior function at all, so it's natural). Fi is pretty much interpreting your existence via an individualistic system of feelings reasoning - you are your own feelings, essentially, if you are an Fi dom - they identify with their own feelings the most strongly of all of the types - these govern their lives as much as breathing does (although a lot of them don't like to admit to this).
So an IFP will always have some closely held values, as a big part of themself? They couldn't just feel lost without having them defined?

Seems I really don't get it, guess I should just accept my ITP and try and play spot the difference between Ne/Si and Se/Ni.

Thanks all :happy:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,382 Posts
So an IFP will always have some closely held values, as a big part of themself? They couldn't just feel lost without having them defined?
Essentially, yes. They define their values based on their feelings primarily. They wouldn't feel lost with them either, since that's essentially their ego's dominant perspective, while Fi is self-contained, so it's not like they need them as some sort of a source of external motivation or guidance. You sound like you're alluding to Fe in your last question.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
585 Posts
As a couple others have said, you do sound like a Ti person. You can think logically, but outwardly, you cannot readily apply your logic. So on the outside, you seem kind of stupid, but you are not. You just need to get a little more discipline.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,691 Posts
Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Essentially, yes. They define their values based on their feelings primarily. They wouldn't feel lost without them either, since that's essentially their ego's dominant perspective, while Fi is self-contained, so it's not like they need them as some sort of a source of external motivation or guidance. You sound like you're alluding to Fe in your last question.
Sorry, I still can't quite get my head around this. Is the out I added correct?

Basically one day a new friend utterly destroyed my worldview. Before that the futility of life was clear so I was an apathetic nihilist mindlessly waiting for death but while explaining this worldview she tore it apart piece by piece with questions, not better answers. I have not been able to reconstruct a worldview and corresponding self image since and it's been four years - I just feel completely aimless with no convictions regarding the (un)importance of anything beyond preserving life (if anything is likely to have meaning life itself is probably it) but I don't take kindly to being told what people should do (in a stereotype Fe social ritual way or a selfish Fi "do what makes you happy" way), instead insisting on deciding everything for myself (which you're suggesting is Ti faking Fi, I think). So this is further proof of inferior Fe? Thing is as a teenager when I should have been less aware and more threatened by inferior Fe I happily went along with what was expected of me, including going through college and uni which I have no interest in. It makes no sense!

Now adding in one fact requires re-evalutaion of everything, sometimes at great length (Ti like) others instantly (Ni like), but deciding anything feels like wasted effort as whatever I decide will be limited by my only having a single perspective, and it being liable to change when something new comes up. I should just do *something* but I hate being wrong so want to ensure it's the right thing before doing so.

Thanks for reading that mess, I hope it made some sense :laughing:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,382 Posts
Sorry, I still can't quite get my head around this. Is the out I added correct?

Basically one day a new friend utterly destroyed my worldview. Before that the futility of life was clear so I was an apathetic nihilist mindlessly waiting for death but while explaining this worldview she tore it apart piece by piece with questions, not better answers. I have not been able to reconstruct a worldview and corresponding self image since and it's been four years - I just feel completely aimless with no convictions regarding the (un)importance of anything beyond preserving life (if anything is likely to have meaning life itself is probably it) but I don't take kindly to being told what people should do (in a stereotype Fe social ritual way or a selfish Fi "do what makes you happy" way), instead insisting on deciding everything for myself (which you're suggesting is Ti faking Fi, I think). So this is further proof of inferior Fe? Thing is as a teenager when I should have been less aware and more threatened by inferior Fe I happily went along with what was expected of me, including going through college and uni which I have no interest in. It makes no sense!

Now adding in one fact requires re-evalutaion of everything, sometimes at great length (Ti like) others instantly (Ni like), but deciding anything feels like wasted effort as whatever I decide will be limited by my only having a single perspective, and it being liable to change when something new comes up. I should just do *something* but I hate being wrong so want to ensure it's the right thing before doing so.

Thanks for reading that mess, I hope it made some sense :laughing:
Okay, none of this seems to be type related for the most part (although you're dominant Ti mentality sort of shines through all of this), although I should definitely clarify - Fi is not worldview or a belief system, which is what you're conflating it with (so really, I don't think you truly get Fi). If you even feel the need to create a corresponding self image, this is making me a bit more suspicious that Fe is coming into play here, although don't take my word for it, because I don't know your situation. Being independent isn't Fi either (cognitive functions aren't behavior). And nothing that you're saying about Ni makes any sense, coming from me, the Ni dom. Why is Ni quicker than Ti? I see no reason for this. One piece of advice here: it's pretty futile to correlate type with your beliefs - type is your personality structure - you can't really use it to predict much of anything about yourself (such as how you will react to situations, etc.). Other people of the same type might not even be able to relate to how you deal with issues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,691 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Okay, none of this seems to be type related for the most part (although you're dominant Ti mentality sort of shines through all of this), although I should definitely clarify - Fi is not worldview or a belief system, which is what you're conflating it with (so really, I don't think you truly get Fi). If you even feel the need to create a corresponding self image, this is making me a bit more suspicious that Fe is coming into play here, although don't take my word for it, because I don't know your situation. Being independent isn't Fi either (cognitive functions aren't behavior). And nothing that you're saying about Ni makes any sense, coming from me, the Ni dom. Why is Ni quicker than Ti? I see no reason for this. One piece of advice here: it's pretty futile to correlate type with your beliefs - type is your personality structure - you can't really use it to predict much of anything about yourself (such as how you will react to situations, etc.). Other people of the same type might not even be able to relate to how you deal with issues.
Fi is no more a worldview than any other function, but if functions are lenses we view the world through the dominant becomes part of a persons worldview (by my definition) and a self image is merely what you consider yourself to be, again it's function neutral.

I remember a great post/thread somewhere comparing Ti and Ni. I want to say it's the 12th post in a thread, but that's stupidly accurate and I can't find now so it's just as likely something I dreamt up - the line between dream and reality isn't very solid for me. I've wasted hours at work looking for things that I never did :blushed:

I think we'd may as well be talking different languages so I'm giving up, thanks again for trying.
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top