Personality Cafe banner
1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi All,

I think that the Fi (6th function) is an elusive function for the INFJ. When INFJ's do experience Fi it can be intense and attractive, and they can be drawn to people, experiences and things that help them to experience Fi. Because of the Fi's elusiveness and intensity, I think the Fi can get the INFJ into trouble, as it can be sort after at the expense of the Ni, which maybe sense a problem. In other words the Fi Shadow can override the 4 main functions.

My thinking is that the Fi function is connected with the INFJ's desire for deep relationship, as my sense is that just Ni and Fe doesn't fully explain the INFJ's idealised desire for deep relationship. I am thinking that in order for the INFJ to more fully experience deep connection, they need to find someone who not only understands the INFJ and complements the four main functions, but also is a safe person for the INFJ to experience and express their Fi function. However in order to do this, INFJ's would need to tame their Fi Shadow enough to be able to intuitively find that safe person.

What do others think?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Frankly, I think function talk has led you to find a disconnect between yourself and what "should be". If you could translate your thoughts into a language that didn't involve cognitive functions, what would you be saying/asking?
Hi Teybo, In a nutshell I am saying that INFJ's (me included) don't do internal feeling very well. It is not a reliable function for making decisions, drawing conclusions etc, especially when it is a negative experience. However, even 'good' internal 'feeling' can also get the better of the INFJ, causing them to take actions that may not be the best. I think INFJ's desire to experience internal feeling and master it in some way. I am also saying that, I think or I am questioning, whether introverted intuition (Ni) and being able to experience and read the feelings of others (Fe) etc fully explains the INFJ desire and need for deep connections with people. I am thinking that being able to experience more internal feeling within a relationship, may lead to that deeper relationship experience that INFJ's desire.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,046 Posts
It might help if you unpack the function talk even more. What is "internal feeling" to you in this conversation? What power is it holding? Try to take whatever dynamic it is that you're experiencing and talk about it without referring to cognitive functions at all; really break away from the crutch of cognitive functions and explore your experience as it is.

My personal opinion is that many of the traits and ideas that are ascribed to "Introverted Feeling" are things that all types with Introversion and Feeling in their type code (that is, all I_F_ types: ISFP, INFP, ISFJ, and INFJ) experience and identify with more than types without either I or F in their code. This is borne out by research data showing that MBTI types are best described by their 1st and "6th" (going by Beebe) functions, rather than the traditional model put forward by Myers. Personally, I've found this to be true, which you can read about here.

I think you are tapping into an important truth that will help you uncover other truths in your life, but I think that if you turn to the shortcut language of cognitive functions, that truth might get buried in the junk and half-truths that exist in function talk. That would be a shame.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,795 Posts
I'm confused about this. I feel as though I prefer FI to Fe but that could be due to difficulty with expression of emotion. I often internalise emotions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,743 Posts
To write just a few words to say why @LiquidLight's notion of feeling makes sense, think of it this way: feeling can make decisions, it can rationalize -- it's a rational function; what does this mean? It means we have to know what kind of conclusions feeling can make. And while intuitively yes, emotions have something to do with feeling, we can perceive emotions. To draw a judgment from them, the end result tends to be "I think this is beautiful" or "I think this has value" (using "think" in the language there does not change that the assessment we are making is one of value) -- you might have an abstract sense of how emotion is evoked in you, and rationalize it unto a conclusion about your sense of valuing something or not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,743 Posts
My thinking is that the Fi function is connected with the INFJ's desire for deep relationship, as my sense is that just Ni and Fe doesn't fully explain the INFJ's idealised desire for deep relationship.


So how would you determine how valuable your relationship is to you (that would count to me as a feeling judgment component existing, even if it needn't be huge)? You consider your emotions about it, you consider facts about it, you consider the broad picture. You can do all of this from an Ni-Fe POV (with the Ti-Se to complement). No need for Fi! Remember that you don't need to introvert every last function to consider subjective information, and in fact, what the hell is all that subjective information --realistically most of the time you need objective information a ton to know what is and isn't working in your relationship.Desiring deep relationships is a property of you and anyone who desires those things. The functions just tell you about the information involved in knowing and rationalizing all of this. If you want to know why you desire what you desire: hop over to the enneagram theory. That's why some people find it more interesting. Also, hop over to somewhere not on PerC lol, there's lots of other ways of explaining why we desire what we desire. But enneagram is pretty cool stuff.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
773 Posts
INFJs dont have Fi, or well some crappy theories claim that they do, but they also misuse the term shadow pretty badly.

The basics of typology is that there are 4 functions; T, S, N and F, and these functions have both subjective and objective sides to them. Extraversion and introversion of these functions means whether you have trusting attitude towards the subjective or objective side(and opposite orientation has a mistrusting attitude towards it, i.e "it is repressed to the furthest limits" -Jung).

For example an INTP has a trusting attitude towards the subjective side of thinking and mistrusting attitude towards the objective, will not see concrete facts as truth automatically just because they are displayed in the external world, but will evaluate whether that thing makes sense via subjective logic before seeing it as true or false. When it comes to INTJs for example, who have dominant subjective attitude(Ni), but still prefer objective attitude to thinking will more readily accept objective facts as true, but will have mistrusting attitude towards possibilities in the external world(perceived by himself or given by others), unless ofc it makes sense in their subjective world.
Same way an INFJ would more readily accept, notice and process the value systems in the external world(values of others, negative/positive nuances of others speech, values prevalent in the society etc) and how they react to those(mainly how they fit to their big picture understanding and ideas(Ni) and whether or not they make sense to him(Ti)). INFP on the other hand while being capable of seeing value systems in the external world, that kind of processing comes more from empathizing with the external world via Ne and seeing how those things would affect the INFP personally, instead of looking at those things from the objective side of values and internal logic/ideas.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
773 Posts
Also when it comes to reasons why some people claim the 8 function theory to be true. Its because when you are using lets say Ti and Fe together, so that Ti is analyzing things provided by Fe, it will in some cases look as if the person were using Fi instead of Fe+Ti. Its because when Fe provides a framework which Ti processes things inside of, they will be values that are being processed, but the values are processed via logical thinking.

Also one big issue in this whole thing is that many people think that F = feeling as in emotion(aka affect), so when the person feels emotions, they think that its because Fi and thats just complete horse shit that goes around on the internets due to people talking and not knowing what they are talking about.
While there is a connection between F and emotions, its not that simple. Emotions and F are two separate systems, but emotions obviously can effect F judgment. F is basically just about forming values and if you feel bad for someone punching you in the face and pissing you off in any way possible, you are obviously going to form a negative value for that person, because he makes you constantly have negative emotions. But F judgment doesent require emotional charge to be there, people can form values about things that they dont feel any noticeable emotions about and in these cases its purely about complexes that determine the value of things. I mean its always about complexes, but emotion is not required or might be total opposite.

For example if someone is in a abusive relationship and has zero self worth, sees that she deserves to get abused etc etc. She might not form a negative F value about the abuser, even tho he makes her feel like crap.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,382 Posts
I think Fi can be very basically summed up in Jung's own words of how one 'houses the ego." The person evaluates on their own terms against inner standards that are considered 'them' or 'not them.' It's just a preference, basically. Ti doms are pretty much incapacitated or primitive with regards to this function - maybe they have it, but it revolves around a basic worldview.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
I'm a newbie, so let me know if I'm misunderstanding something!
@introvertpower

First, I just want to give you kudos for your videos on Youtube. I'm trying to help another INFJ understand what the heck is going on, and so I started by sending her a link to your type description! It's on the dot.

In response to the general discussion here - what role does Fi play in finding that safe space for INFJs to find deep relationships and then what Fi is down to the heart of it....I don't think that your perceived misunderstanding (emphasis on the word *perceived*) means that you aren't thinking in the right direction.

I have a fantastic, fantastic relationship with an ISFJ. I'm a little Frodo and he's a little Sam; we're cool with that.

I think the core of his emotional support comes from the fact that I align deeply with his internal value structure. It took me 5 years to pick up on that. My Fe / Ni functions made me understand him more than myself. As a result, I was wary of the relationship because it seemed a little too perfect. My Ni keeps me questioning and questioning...

I think if I had access to a healthy Fi and properly could read my values through my emotional response to him, I could have seen how our personal Fe-minded egalitarian humanism was something we bonded over. But again, it took me 5 darn years to feel certainty over what my personal value structures were. The act of knowing I had certain values felt like a confession rather than a realization, because my Ni tells me that values are completely relative and my Fe relies on external sources to guide me.

My point is that you may be onto something, even if Fi means a strong ability to sense internal value structures via emotional tones. Shared values are incredibly important to strong relationships, and if you are wishy washy about your internal values, you won't be able to carry that certainty that vitalizes strong bonds.

However, I would be extremely wary about an INFJ intentionally using Fi. When it comes down to it, my Ni interferes with my ability to form concrete values because I see limitless possibilities in my head and refuse to settle. I don't trust/understand the concrete values I form; I see them as a weakness / inflexibility. For most INFJs, we are bound to relate to Fi in a weird, dysfunctional way (unless we are super special), and in my experience I've never relied on emotional tones to discover values. I've had to think and think and think about it, intuit it, and use Fe try to understand (and admittedly rate) my partner. For an INFP, I can only guess that one would know instantly that this was a match, s/he accurately can trust their values based on a fine ability to read those emotional tones.

In essence, maybe the role of Fi is a little more context-specific, but I think what you are saying is valid. I'm unsure about the typical INFJ's ability to develop Fi, since it usually comes out in weird, unsettling ways. (At least for me.) But if you do figure out a way to do it safely, let me know how!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,967 Posts
I agree with you, @introvertpower In fact, I lived out that very scenario w/ an Fi dominant (INFP).
 
  • Like
Reactions: introvertpower

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
G'day mirrormirror,

Thanks for the feedback regarding my youtube vids.

Apologies for the late reply. I am not on here much. Everything to have shared has resonated with me. Fi is elusive for me (INFJ). I share your caution regarding INFJ's using Fi, however I think my Ni will always wrestle with Fi and the emotions that point to it. I like and resonate with the way you have described Fi in your post.

I think the struggle for the INFJ would be getting any emotional experiences connected with the Fi to channel itself up through the more reliable INFJ functions making the Fi helpful, rather than allowing emotion to drive decision making and behaviour of the INFJ. While the emotion may point to Fi values and beliefs, often I think these emotions can burst out of the Fe potentially causing problems. Allowing the Ni to pick up on (or tackle) emotions, and what the emotions may be saying about values (Fi) of the INFJ, and then making whatever decision is necessary is the key. This is the 'safest' way I can think of for using or at least acknowledging Fi in the INFJ. In fact I wonder if this could be a helpful strategy for INFJ's to engage with emotions and the Fi values and beliefs they may point to. As it may help to avoid the infamous Fe explosion or INFJ door slam that we INFJ's can be known for.

What do you think?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,743 Posts
This shadow theory is often mis-applied. I actually think the biggest problem is over-estimating how settled one's psyche is. Your "shadow" only is a shadow once you're so settled into one pattern that accessing the other becomes demonic. They give rules of thumb as to how the type develops in terms of age, but not sure you can just mark it down that way.

And no, deep desire for connection and relationships doesn't have to mean having much Fi focus at all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
@introvertpower:

I definitely think knowing your internal value system would prevent the ‘door slam’ as you say, but I’m not sure if intuition is the best tool for the job. It depends on the person, of course.

For me, my Ni-Fe influence makes me believe quite strongly that humanity at large is perfect and that internal emotions are simply transient products of environment, pushing internal emotional content under the rug. When I am out of my comfort zone and feeling emotional, the Ni gets quite evil as it sucks me up into contemplation and introversion. Introverted intuition is so comfortable for me that I convince myself that I can get anything accomplished with it, like discovering great shadowy bodies of emotions. Instead I find myself nestling in my Ni comfort zone, misreading emotional experiences and getting stuck in little intuition loops, when I’m trying to strengthen a non-comfort zone shadow function.

Fe brings me to (simply to greet) Fi since I believe that it's completely inappropriate in a social setting to ignore such life-shaping internal emotional processes. In a state of dysfunction, poor emotional intelligence/overly flexible values form the foundation of immature, even narcissistic-ish or codependent people (and this is really Fi territory). So using Fe in this case is like putting your oxygen mask on first so that you can help others breath next. Tend to your values first and you will find reciprocity in the romantic relationships you choose via natural selection.

In the end the best tools I’ve ever used for identifying values are great poetry and great friends. Great poetry speaks to me and tells me a lot about my emotional life - there is a little moment of connectedness that will arise when I’m reading something really great, and it’s a hint for me to stop and contemplate my reactions to the work. It breaks the cycle of thinking too hard about something that is emotive in nature by evoking imagery that communicates with the right side of the brain. Over time and through exposure to really great literature, you are delivered an image-based value structure that fits nicely into our INFJ visions of the world. I guess you could say in cognitive function language that Se helps us find values as well by shutting up analytical thinking and opening up experiential, right-brained phenomenon.

I am lucky to have several brilliant INFJ and ENFP friends and both have been incredibly helpful in learning to identify values. Clearly the ENFPs teach through example, but the INFJs are always excited to swap internal dialogue and analysis to provide perspective. Someone else’s Fe can become my internal discovery of Fi.

Perhaps your intuition is balanced enough with the rest of your mind that you don’t fall prey to the traps. I’m coming from a space where I have overused my intuition, in a sense creating a shadow through my other weaknesses. Don’t do that. It’s pretty unpleasant. :confused:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
806 Posts
This post is just perfect.

My boyfriend is an ENFP, very Fi. If he wasn't such a people-person, he'd practically be an introvert :tongue: He is so deep, bright, and helps me stay out of trouble. Haha, I'm lucky to have found him, because Fi is beautiful.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,741 Posts
The shadow refers to the tertiary and inferior functions specifically. You don't have an Fi shadow, you have an ESTP shadow. Use it wisely.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,545 Posts
Firstly, Fi doesn't by itself create a need or desire for intense relationships. Feeling is just a preference for rationalizing data on the basis of value, and Fi makes that value subjective or internally derived as compared to Fe, which derives its value from external sources and makes it objective. Secondly, all INFJs do not to have to idealize a deep relationship. Anybody can idealize that sort of thing. What sort of cognitive reciprocation and understanding do they look for in said relationship? Now that's a question that functions can explain.

Fi in INFJs doesn't have to be something as alluring and mystical as it's made out to be here. If it's anything like my Fe, then it's a function that INFJs can probably learn to even mimic over time, but since it isn't in their top four, it is going to tire them out and they might not value people who use it that much. There's nothing unsafe about it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
Hmmmm...

Keep in mind that I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm just talking.

I can relate to Fi insofar as I feel I 'use' Fi in hindsight, when I'm alone, when I'm reflecting on experiences, people, situations. It's an after-the-fact understanding. However, I do feel like Fi can be 'brought forward' just by brunt of repetition. Meaning: when in reflection or self-observation, Fi (or what seems like Fi) is brought out as a reminder of the lessons and observations and realizations, and maybe even sometimes truths. Again, please remember that I have no idea what I'm talking about.

And yet, I will constantly update my interests, so what was 'Fi'-'approved' 6 months ago is no longer relevant, so I'll chuck it. Is that Fi? I have no idea. Just trying to figure out if this is at all Fi-related.

I will say that while I may have a small handful of 'values', they're more universal principles or laws than values as they're too broad and impractical to locate and specify.
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top