I'm a bit like you with this but I think our emphases are different. I don't get this sort of comment of "I didn't know you were that smart". I have been seen surprised by the comment "hey I didn't know you can be this nice" instead. This is IRL, online I seem more often light hearted, don't know why haha. Even online I can still switch sharply between Ti and Fe though.It seems I don't have much difficulty using Ti, but at the same time; I can almost 'feel' when I'm relying on it more.
For example, I've had LII/ILIs think that I were dumb because I've just adapted to the atmosphere, and if it's non-intellectual, that's the way I act. I often get "I didn't know you were that smart" etc. Conversely, I don't seem to give off the innate warmth of IEI-Fe.
Would comfort with Ti be suggestive of another type altogether?
It seems like Fe is something I don't notice I use until people tell me traits of Fe they see.I'm a bit like you with this but I think our emphases are different. I don't get this sort of comment of "I didn't know you were that smart". I have been seen surprised by the comment "hey I didn't know you can be this nice" instead. This is IRL, online I seem more often light hearted, don't know why haha. Even online I can still switch sharply between Ti and Fe though.
So, were you thinking of you perhaps being Ti ego? We could talk a bit more to see if you're Ti > Fe or not.
So you're trying to say Ti is conscious for you but Fe isn't? How about Ni then?It seems like Fe is something I don't notice I use until people tell me traits of Fe they see.
I'll take a look but I'm not an expert on typing so don't expect too much pleaseHi @itsme45 and @FlightsOfFancy. I find it incredibly interesting what you are saying. I am very new to Soionics and is there such a thing as IEI-Ti? I am struggling between LII and IEI. If you would be so kind as to take a look at my type me thread, and give me your insights on my possible type; I would really appreciate it.
I try to shy away from saying my "Ni" shows; I think this would defeat the purpose of a primary function, no? If someone is used to a dominant cognitive function, then they shouldn't "notice using it" as just I don't notice that I'm short unless someone tells me. Something that's a norm shouldn't be easy to detect.So you're trying to say Ti is conscious for you but Fe isn't? How about Ni then?
I'll take a look but I'm not an expert on typing so don't expect too much please
Conversely, what about Fe then? When do you notice Fe if you do? Because what you wrote about Ni also applies for Fe being creative in the IEI and thus the IM that psychologically is the most pleasant to rely on after the base. Noticing the use of the creative is therefore not something we may notice or pay attention to. I don't notice Te, but I do notice when I start relying on Fi or seek Fi in others. It just feels different.I try to shy away from saying my "Ni" shows; I think this would defeat the purpose of a primary function, no? If someone is used to a dominant cognitive function, then they shouldn't "notice using it" as just I don't notice that I'm short unless someone tells me. Something that's a norm shouldn't be easy to detect.
Ti feels like something I use when concentrated or in a logical argument. I doubt its dominance because it does feel like it's "conjured" so to speak.
I didn't really notice how sensitive and sanctimonious I can become when angered. It's like "THAT'S IMMORAL, AND I'M GOING TO SAVE SOMEONE" type.Conversely, what about Fe then? When do you notice Fe if you do? Because what you wrote about Ni also applies for Fe being creative in the IEI and thus the IM that psychologically is the most pleasant to rely on after the base. Noticing the use of the creative is therefore not something we may notice or pay attention to. I don't notice Te, but I do notice when I start relying on Fi or seek Fi in others. It just feels different.
If I were to try Te heavily then yes I also experience a mental focus as in, I feel more extroverted I suppose, and there is overall al ot more focus on structure, but the overall natural reliance on Te is not something I notice. Though for you, it might be relevant that I am reconsidering my subtype.
So you would say that you default to this behavior, that it is more akin to your natural state of mind? Conversely I think I am more inclined to understand things logically, though not quite related to logical patterns per se. It's more that what people tell me become logical constructs themselves, a source of external logical information or conversely, I tend to try to understand what they are saying based on what I know and how it relates to external systems. So if someone tells me, "I have this dog, it's pretty big and furry", I might ask if it's a German Shepherd or similar larger breed.I didn't really notice how sensitive and sanctimonious I can become when angered. It's like "THAT'S IMMORAL, AND I'M GOING TO SAVE SOMEONE" type.
It's normally lightweight; I try to engage people in friendly convo if I'm not too drained, all to watch their expression and try to 'know them' through how they respond. I notice people can become quite fond of telling me intimate details, even if I grow tired. Their facial expressions, or lack thereof, almost give me an instant idea into their character. I respond accordingly, changing dynamic to fit the situation or person. Later, I will be able to tell you what about the person's demeanor set me off with detail, which I assume is the Ni-Ti processing time.
Eh yeah, I can't type that behavior without seeing the reasoning process behind it e.g. seeing you do it since I have more context to go on then (what they said, what triggered you to say it and why you said it), but in my situation, when I grow tired of people it's more that I lose my ability to logically reason and I start berating their character instead and how I don't like them. It tends to end up with an indirect declaration that I think they are stupid in some manner. The fact it's ultimately so pathetic and childish is what belies the inferior character of it. It feels a little like I am a selfish child throwing a fit. It probably looks that way too. I think this is why Beebe considers the tertiary to be a manifestation of the aether puer archetype in his model as well. The actual inferior is more archaic and simple in a sense. In contrast I think Se is almost purely instinctual.I also have a quite placid and unassuming temperament that can turn into a straight "cut-through-you" session with a volley of, what I believe to be, Ni-Ti logic.
Correct me if wrong, ofc.
I feel like we do the same things, except I normally don't care about the information, itself. I'm doing a character profile and something in me 'feels good' when they let loose and start talking with enthusiasm.So you would say that you default to this behavior, that it is more akin to your natural state of mind? Conversely I think I am more inclined to understand things logically, though not quite related to logical patterns per se. It's more that what people tell me become logical constructs themselves, a source of external logical information or conversely, I tend to try to understand what they are saying based on what I know and how it relates to external systems. So if someone tells me, "I have this dog, it's pretty big and furry", I might ask if it's a German Shepherd or similar larger breed.
Eh yeah, I can't type that behavior without seeing the reasoning process behind it e.g. seeing you do it since I have more context to go on then (what they said, what triggered you to say it and why you said it), but in my situation, when I grow tired of people it's more that I lose my ability to logically reason and I start berating their character instead and how I don't like them. It tends to end up with an indirect declaration that I think they are stupid in some manner. The fact it's ultimately so pathetic and childish is what belies the inferior character of it. It feels a little like I am a selfish child throwing a fit. It probably looks that way too. I think this is why Beebe considers the tertiary to be a manifestation of the aether puer archetype in his model as well. The actual inferior is more archaic and simple in a sense. In contrast I think Se is almost purely instinctual.
Yeah, I don't relate at all to this.I feel like we do the same things, except I normally don't care about the information, itself. I'm doing a character profile and something in me 'feels good' when they let loose and start talking with enthusiasm.
And aestrivex says I'm IEI when I am clearly not an Fe-valuing type in socionics so I always take his typings with a large grain of salt, personally. Though I do remember that I did initially suggest LSI for you as well.Some have posited Ti-dominance for me, so I may not be a good example (although most serious typers here say IEI). aestrivex also said I was an LSI.
Meaning?I like external systems; for example, I love physics and computers and all that NT jazz, but I've always had a humanistic slant to it.
Yeah, I think this might be something ethical types might feel indulged doing because they just like the feeling interaction of it. I notice something similar in my SEE friend. She for example told me that she likes to hear people tell her stories about their lives so she can envision how it is like to live life as they do. This kind of thinking is extremely foreign to me. I don't really factor in the interpersonal in my thinking, if at all.But here's something I've caught myself doing: asking people questions that I know the answer to or am not interested in just so they can feel worthy.
For example, my friend's friend once started to try to explain thermal degradation. I sat and listened and asked questions because it seemed like he was enjoying having knowledge. My friend jumps in and says "He's a fucking chemist." He thought that the guy was insulting my intelligence, but that is not how I felt.
Eh yeah, I don't care about it hurting like how I feel hurt. Very Fe-informed way of operating. I just want people to know how hurt I feel, the depth and pain of my hurt, if I were to express it, though I really don't. It's something you would have to infer from my behavior.Now, if pissed, this all goes to hell. I will pick out the worst emotional/cognitive triggers that leave scars; I almost want them to hurt as much as I do.
Well, similarly I have a tendency to burrow myself in my own emotions and I can have a strong longing for someone to just understand me. I don't need to rationalize things at this point, because it's beyond rationalization.Also, dunno if this helps, but Ti seems to be a comfort function for me. If I get super stressed, upset, etc, I was known to try to mull away at differential equations because it would 'shut off' the feelings for awhile and get me to think more logically.
It's also a problem. I will overlook details sometimes in these states and my logic is not as sound as it would appear. I am also prone to over thinking, so it's a love-hate thing, really.
I do relate to the Fe in LII, but I'm always subconsciously doing character assessments; this is something my ENFJ friend was very fond of.Yeah, I don't relate at all to this.
And aestrivex says I'm IEI when I am clearly not an Fe-valuing type in socionics so I always take his typings with a large grain of salt, personally. Though I do remember that I did initially suggest LSI for you as well.
Meaning?
I also like the humanities and social sciences, but I feel what always separated me when I was the most immersed in the environment is that I cared little about human ethics. I like to understand humanity and human social interaction and society and how we place meaning and value on our environment, but I never cared about helping people, improving life situations or using knowledge in a way that is meaningful outside of purely theoretical discussion and advancement.
Yeah, I think this might be something ethical types might feel indulged doing because they just like the feeling interaction of it. I notice something similar in my SEE friend. She for example told me that she likes to hear people tell her stories about their lives so she can envision how it is like to live life as they do. This kind of thinking is extremely foreign to me. I don't really factor in the interpersonal in my thinking, if at all.
Eh yeah, I don't care about it hurting like how I feel hurt. Very Fe-informed way of operating. I just want people to know how hurt I feel, the depth and pain of my hurt, if I were to express it, though I really don't. It's something you would have to infer from my behavior.
But aside that, does this relate to Ti in some way? Is this how you express yourself utilizing Ti?
Well, similarly I have a tendency to burrow myself in my own emotions and I can have a strong longing for someone to just understand me. I don't need to rationalize things at this point, because it's beyond rationalization.
But if you are considering Ti base or creative, wouldn't the most pertinent question here be how you relate to Fe in super-id position?
RosoDude have written some excerpts about how he thinks as an LII to me in person, but I don't think he minds sharing in this case:I do relate to the Fe in LII, but I'm always subconsciously doing character assessments; this is something my ENFJ friend was very fond of.
Also, if I am very upset (like now), I feel out of control. I feel it physically as if it's some sort of mild flu.
This is why I asked why IEI-Nis are. For example, I view everything as one big long day; if it were not for the discrete nature imposed by dates, I'd feel as though everything were just a continuation of sorts.
However, I am not sure because I do get some Si-like tendencies when stressed. For example, at the hospital yesterday, I thought a lot of people looked like other people. It amused me in a way, but once I looked, I saw they really didn't look much like them.
I think it's a good example of how static types think, and it does operate very opposed to how you describe your own understanding where there is no stop and no end; it all flows continually. Something I can understand as well, by the way. I might be surprised how much the world has actually changed once I go outside because I don't notice any inherent change if I stay inside for a couple of days because at some level it all feels the same. I know the world is changing, but I don't perceive the change.I think I was referring to was the tendency of dynamic types to think more in terms of a flowing process that does change and requires adaption in plan or method or what have you to solve problems (if solving problems is the goal). I remember reading an analysis of Ti types that I found really interesting because it really delved into the static/dynamic dichotomy. It was some sort of analogy about baseball. A more cerebral dynamic type (ILI as opposed to ESE or whatever) would notice certain fluid patterns in how the game is played and perhaps develop intuitive algorithms (or whatever, I'm talking out of my ass here) for the development of things throughout the game. By contrast, an LII or LSI would more likely think about the frame of things as they occur at each moment. So they'll be thinking about the connections between everything in a snapshot -- the position and motion of the runner relative to the position and motion of the ball relative to the third baseman relative to the pitcher. This is how I conceptualize everything (though I can't do that shit in sports for the life of me because my physical awareness is shit). Adapting for me is looking for very specific relation between things at precise moments, rather than really looking at how things develop over time. I practically have vector calculus in my head when I look at seating arrangements at the dining hall. I haven't done a great job talking about dynamic problem solving, now, because it's not the world I live in, so hopefully you can get something just from the contrast.
I'll give you an example of what I believe to be 'Si'. "Hmm her bone structure is similar to that of Katy Perry's. There's a downward slope"RosoDude have written some excerpts about how he thinks as an LII to me in person, but I don't think he minds sharing in this case:
I think it's a good example of how static types think, and it does operate very opposed to how you describe your own understanding where there is no stop and no end; it all flows continually. Something I can understand as well, by the way. I might be surprised how much the world has actually changed once I go outside because I don't notice any inherent change if I stay inside for a couple of days because at some level it all feels the same. I know the world is changing, but I don't perceive the change.
Also, what you mention about Si, couldn't it equally be Se? What is it about this that makes you think it's Si in this case? Si in socionics in particular, deals with bodily states and one's awareness of them.
Essentially, what you describe sounds more like the nature of dynamic types than it does the static types. As RosoDude points out here, he definitely sees the world as snapshots. Perhaps you might agree with the Ti aspect of his thinking, but he's definitely much more rigid about it than you are.
Perhaps what I think is a better example that people can experience, especially when it comes to HP cognition, is the game Assassin's Creed if you've played it. In the game, there's a reveal map feature that reveals more of the map when you visit them. What struck me when I played the game was the way the entire mechanic was done, especially cinematically, where it seemed to focus on showing you the map you just revealed by spinning the camera around. It really felt like it took a holistic snapshot of the entire scene and then updated the map to complete the picture.
Hm, it does seem like sensation but it seems more Se, since you are referring to the present moment of what you are experiencing now, not how the present makes you reminisce or recall what you have experienced similar to what you are experiencing now. You also seem to describe the as is-details about the object/person (though in a strict since anyone but yourself is an object from a cognitive perspective) in a snap-shot-ish way, if you understand what I mean. The dress is red, the hair is blonde, she's wearing two silver ear-rings. It seems static. An Si type when seeing this impression would be more likely to recall or think of something they've personally experienced and observed over time, some kind of pattern about say, women in red dresses, I think.I'll give you an example of what I believe to be 'Si'. "Hmm her bone structure is similar to that of Katy Perry's. There's a downward slope"
Another example of what may be S just followed 2 days ago with a Physician's assistant.:
Inside head:
"Look at her nails; they're jagged, with nailpolish scantly distributed, almost as if she cares not but forces herself to adhere to societal norms begrudgingly. There's also her suit which remains unchanged. I think she imposes this structure on herself to really give the air of calm professionalism, but she gives off nervous energy?
*something interjects* What makes you think nervous energy?
"Look at the way she avoids eye contact in an almost haphazard way. Her smile is almost painful. She also has allergies, which is linked to anxiety. I think she has an anxiety disorder of sorts and does this to assuage her internal turmoil.
There's an efficiency she has that seems not to be mirrored in her dress and mannerisms.
Heh, so Fe was a way to affect your own mood? Do you rarely if ever see your emotions as unique to yourself and unrelated to others?"
Then I outwardly try to lighten the mood:
"Oh, I hear Hepa filters are great"
"Do you speak Italian?" I notice her last name is Italian, and I sing Opera at times, so perhaps this can be a point of connection and will lighten her mood if she sees I am not upset.
I see her getting frustrated with treating me, I apologize instantly, almost appropriating fault, despite it being none of our own. For some reason, I felt as though, even though her frustration was not MY cause in particular, I had to do something to lighten her up because she seemed to frustrated. Her frustration made me frustrated that she was frustrated.
Once she showed her true colors....yeah...
It's odd; I will have a feeling about the person. Like, I always 'felt' her nervous energy; then it's something that makes me want to ground it in reality. Then it becomes me looking at the present detail to check if my idea was right.Hm, it does seem like sensation but it seems more Se, since you are referring to the present moment of what you are experiencing now, not how the present makes you reminisce or recall what you have experienced similar to what you are experiencing now. You also seem to describe the as is-details about the object/person (though in a strict since anyone but yourself is an object from a cognitive perspective) in a snap-shot-ish way, if you understand what I mean. The dress is red, the hair is blonde, she's wearing two silver ear-rings. It seems static. An Si type when seeing this impression would be more likely to recall or think of something they've personally experienced and observed over time, some kind of pattern about say, women in red dresses, I think.
Heh, so Fe was a way to affect your own mood? Do you rarely if ever see your emotions as unique to yourself and unrelated to others?
Ground it how and what way? But looking for present details seems like Se or at least some kind of extroversion. It's like when I am reading someone's post because they wanted me to type them and then they ask why I think that type and I go blank, because I don't have concrete answers to provide with usually. I can have a strong vibe of "this person is X type", but needing to go back and look for evidence to support it isn't always something I prefer doing because usually it's just that; an incredibly strong vibe of someone's type. Se would be going back and look exactly for what details that actually triggered this impression in the first place, what impressions that seemed important to me at the time and thus also provided this vibe, and then on top of that, I need to logically reason why I think so. I rather not to.It's odd; I will have a feeling about the person. Like, I always 'felt' her nervous energy; then it's something that makes me want to ground it in reality. Then it becomes me looking at the present detail to check if my idea was right.
Vibing is not a conscious act, not. Going back to look for concrete details can be unless I spot them right away. It can also be a conscious process to go back and backtrack my impressions. Sometimes I can recall right away what I thought gave me what impression, sometimes not.For example, a Dr. came to me...I automatically felt like he was going to be of no help and was there for formality. No real reason, then something goes "Oh, look at the way his body language is so defensive".
Another was a staff there. I don't know what makes me think it, but she again always had this trust factor. It seemed she wasn't hiding, aside from her duty--while the other was reluctant. I would then think back on it and possibly find WHY I had that feeling. Sometimes, I don't know why. But it was correct; she indeed was more receptive.
It seems like it goes in order of: my instinct (person is giving me this)-->anchorage with observables-->tossed or proven correct depending on the test. Step 1 and 2 are not very conscious.
You mean logical errors you yourself performed? Doesn't sound like logic in ego. Criticism aimed towards one's ego elements makes one take it less seriously, because logic in ego is where one is comfortable psychologically, especially if it's one's base. One can however experience embarrassment, shame and so on if someone points out something regarding one's super-id or superego. Your emotional reaction seems more like the immature/childlike reactions people have concerning one's inferior, similar to my emotional outbursts where I just declare everyone stupid. I think it's interesting also that your sense of stupidity seems directed towards the self. I can experience this, but if someone points out an error I made I will most likely just correct it and move on, and heck, even feel grateful that someone bothered doing it because it was something I think I shouldn't slip on myself.I have tons of feelings on my own, but I am very affected by others emotions. Whether or not I respond snappishly or warmly depends on the situation.
Is this not IEI-Ni? Perhaps LSI? It does bug me when people point out logical errors to me. For some reason, it's infuriating and embarrassing, but I don't act on it. It's more like "OMG SO STUPID!"
I think there's an external organization to Je, though I am not sure where else to put this in any context.Despite my desire to be organized and efficient, it feels somewhat like a strain. I will organize my entire room only to have it somewhat dishevelled later.
That makes sense to me, yes. I think I do the same but for different reasons. When I need to actually study and look at reality, it feels more concrete and snapshot-ish.It feels like I get snapshotish when I'm looking for anchors to reality, if that makes sense. "Why do I feel this person is trying to manipulate or is really sad" etc.
Sounds like introversion since you seem to describe a need to focus on your own internal content. The external is disturbing you. Not to say that extroverts don't prefer quiet atmospheres, but I think they are less susceptible to feeling that external stimuli disturbs them, and some might even find it stimulating e.g. Pe.Another thing is; I am bad with distraction--but good at focus. For example, I'm good at writing (not here lol) and I always have to tell people; please be quiet or I can't think.
Doesn't sound like LSI given that Se is creative and this is therefore an element the LSI feels pretty comfortable and confident in.If someone is watching me do a sensate task--let's say a chemistry experiment, I will feel overwhelmed and will be more prone to error.
Don't relate to the part about going blank if my professor would stare at me, and what I was thinking about sounded maybe something like this:Another example, I can do math (I have a degree in it) but having my professor stare at the paper as I did it made me go blank. I rarely go blank, but when people watch me, it's not as efficient, unless I tune them out and sort of put my paper away from them. At work, I used headphones because the constant conversation was more distracting than soft music.
As for listening to music, I always did that when I was still in high school and we had maths class. I couldn't concentrate otherwise because I can zone out music and it just becomes background noise I don't pay attention to, but it's much more difficult to zone out chatter for some reason. Perhaps because there is a variability to chatter (frequency, volume) that music doesn't have. It's much more even.4. Extroverted logic
IEIs have limited endurance in awareness concerning methods to achieve their purposes without wasting any energy or producing unwanted side effects. This creates a feeling of frustration and inadequacy. They do not value the importance of this area, and it can lead to painful consequences.
Taking care of intensely detailed work that is required to reach their goals, like managing finance or being pragmatic in business ventures, will exhaust their sense of concentration and they will find it frustrating as they continually encounter mistakes and things they had forgotten about or inadvertently ignored.
IEIs dislike having the details of the process--rote facts and statistics--thrown at them, giving more weight to an intuitive understanding of how the events within the process culminate inevitably in a certain result. They will distrust and dislike bossy people, and will avoid people who will assign them routine work like chores. They will even avoid their friends and family when they expect that they will be assigned such work, and do not enjoy fulfilling daily chores.
They dislike rote routine and do not give much attention to what others may view as the practical aspects of life. They may seem oblivious to objective reality, lost in their "dreams." This causes them to periodically lose track of their belongings, making them feel rather inadequate. IEIs will be overly stressed or even counter-productive in an atmosphere where speedy organization and efficiency are forced apon them.
Haha, OMG. That's like reading what I wrote when I have my panic attacks I thought were initially related to being HSP or similar, but now I genuinely think it's inferior sensation. I have this as well and it usually happens in very public environments with lots of people and stimuli so sound, noise, light, smell and so on. I can't take it and I become hyper-aware and it starts stressing me out like hell and I just need to get away ASAP or I'll have a mental breakdown, really. I could literally just sit down and cry if it's too prolonged. And yes, in a sense one could say it feels like one is floating away though to me it felt more like I am stuck outside of myself and I can't get back inside my own head. Someone literally forced me out and now I'm locked outside and I can't get back in though I desperately need and want to. It only becomes better once I arrive home where it's quiet.When stressed, I will often try to find a place with as least stimulation as possible (dark room/in blacklight/no sounds). Sounds, lots of people, even visuals become too much. If I stay in them even if severely stressed, it feels like I float away. It goes away after being in said quiet room
I don't see LSI though you could always chat with @soppoxo who self-identifies as such (and I don't see any reason to distrust that typing based on what I've seen) and see what he says about his type. Maybe that helps.Hope this helps.
I don't think it actually affects Jungian cognition, anyway.Just so we're clear, I do not have autism/asperger's to any degree of clinical significance as per doctor.
