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This is a conversation I had with an INTJ over our friendship of 3 years which has had its sexual tension. This is totally embarrassing but I need to know that I'm not what he says I am. INFJ's please tell me how you would deal with this kind of communication. I'm at a loss for words. I'm sorry it's very long but if you feel the need to offer your wonderful words of advice, I'd appreciate the time:

Ramona says:
come on, live music, it would still be good to watch
oh thats right
it's ok i remember your abhorence to live music
David says:
for one, you've used abhorrence in a grammatically incorrect way
abhorrence FOR live music
and, it's not an abhorrence
more an indifference to
Ramona says:
lol, ok
do you ever switch off?
it's ok, don't mind being corrected
David says:
no, never
Ramona says:
learn something new every day, whether i retain it or not is another thing entirely
David says:
Ramona Shorley likes Being Emo (Activity)

Ramona says:
what?
David says:
"Ramona Shorley likes Against Me! (Musician)."
on facebook
Ramona says:
stop looking at my fb
what an invasion!
David says:
i didnt
it showed up on my news feed
i never look at people's pages
Ramona says:
i feel violated
NOT
David says:
you wish you felt violated
horny skank
Ramona says:
oh hell yeah you have no idea
David says:
HAHAHA
Ramona says:
yr lucky you haven't been violated yet...ebil laugh
David says:
HAHAHA
you underestimate my antirape abilities
Ramona says:
oh really?
you underestimate my refusal to do anything first
David says:
ya rly
Ramona says:
after that i'm all good
David says:
i dont underestimate that at all
i expect an INFJ to never initiate anything
Ramona says:
glad you know then
David says:
to INFJs, life 'happened to' them
and actually
it seems to be true
i think i explained this before
Ramona says:
yes you did
David says:
where ive never met or heard of an infj who didnt have some something or other in their past
well, if INFJ is really a reaction
or, rather
if INFJ can be brought on as a reaction (surely there are natives)
then becoming something other than INFJ seems preferable
whats your take on it all, actually
what kind of person do you want to be? what kind of life do you want to have?
Ramona says:
of course i don't want to be a slave to emotion, however, i do need support from those i love and cherish most. Positive support. I want to be happy, and i don't want to be solely relied upon. i need to rely on someone to, to ease the burden of decision making. i don't want alot from the world david, just companionship and loyalty. i'm good to go with the flow if i have those
and i need my work
David says:
but thats just it
Ramona says:
makes me feel important
David says:
we all need our work
but
going with the flow is a fucking awful strategy
it's touted as if its some new age ephphany
but it's really laziness wrapped up in wishful thinking
epiphany*
Ramona says:
no, contentness isn't laziness
David says:
going with the flow isnt contentness
it's letting whatever happens happen
contentness is anything *but* letting shit happen
contentness is deciding on what will make you content and working for it
Ramona says:
and in life you have to do that alot of the time, you can't control everything and the things that you can, well they are obviously of enough weight that you can't just go with the flow, i'm talking about the life decisions
David says:
i dont know
it seems like you deal with little shit easily enough
but whenever it involves doing something really difficult, you just dont
i mean emotionally difficult
dealing with gareth, dealing with tash
Ramona says:
ah, that's why i need support, like i said, i'm tired of making decisions
alone
without another mature input
David says:
youve had infinite time to do both, and i dont know that companionship wouldve made a difference
Ramona says:
gareth was incapable
David says:
yeah but i mean
for a while there, the only difference between us and a relationship was sex
we were really close, i was giving you endless advice, and nothing happened
by saying what you need is companionship, i think youre obscuring the inner strength you actually lack
Ramona says:
and thats whats got me so fucking confused.
David says:
what specifically?
Ramona says:
that it feels like a relationship but then i never measure up and then that's just no motivation at all. now that's a terrible cycle
David says:
because what you want is a relationship
youre not the first person ive had a platonic, relationship-esque friendship with
but you are the first who wanted more
so perhaps my handling hasnt been quite right
ill be there in every way that isnt sexual/monogamous commitment
because the two of us are incompatible
and when i realise someone is incompatible, the ability to want a relationship with them actually disappears
like the INTJ chick i spent a couple of months talking to
at first i thought something might be possible
but then enough of our personality traits didnt match, and i almost instantly lost all interest
Ramona says:
what is it this little game you play with me? i like bein teased but you, you are unbelievable. its ok, i got that we're incompatible for your reasons and that i'm not good enough for me. its all good.
David says:
what game, exactly?
'not good enough' is a very NF way of saying 'well, we arent compatible and neither of us can help that'
you want to pretend im blaming you and i wont let you
Ramona says:
ok
no worries, no blame laying here, just sorting my thoughts
David says:
yeah but you tend to
i dunno
i guess id call it dramatise
if i say 'were not compatible'
you think 'hes saying im not good enough'
itd be like if i said
'the sky is blue'
'he doesnt think green is good enough'
Ramona says:
david why are you explaining this to me further? its ok.
David says:
what im saying is, the situation is x....im not attaching my emotions to it
because
you and i know that your sensitivity and timidity have cost you
you want some of this to change
well, i can see where youre not being raitonal, where youre fucking yourself with self-doubt and low self esteem
so, i point out where it is so you can realise where you're misinterpreting people
where youre inventing your own meaning instead of tuning into the intended meaning
if i say 'i cant be with someone like you because we're incompatible'
thats the same as saying 'you cant be with someone like me because were incompatible'
if i didnt leave you, youd leave me, we're just incompatible
but for some reason you always take emotive meanings in words
'incompatible' somehow means 'shit' to you, instead of 'not compatible with', like it would always mean to me
Ramona says:
well leaving my leaving would be very hard, i'd be devastated if you left. i appreciate the honesty. and i see yr point as always and thats all. can we drop this now.
David says:
no, i dont think so
im not being harsh am i?
Ramona says:
yes
David says:
how so?
Ramona says:
just feel like i'm being dismissed without a fair chance
David says:
also, at what point do you try to communicate like me instead of me avoiding hurting you?
well, no
Ramona says:
i give up the fight so easy, i dont understand why i just dont want to let this go
David says:
not without a fair chance
i understand you well enough to simulate how thatd go in a relationship
none of the things that are important to you are important to me, and none of the things important to me are important to you
and then theres this
Ramona says:
have you ever sat down with me face to face to discuss them?
David says:
where im explaining things, trying to me empathetic, and you still think im being harsh, how will we ever have a serious conversation?
if i try to sit down face to face and discuss whats iomportant to you, i get accused of being cold, or you dont express what you really mean
where would that have gotten me?
how much conversation would it take to turn you into someone rational enough for me or me into someone empathetic enough for you?
from where im sitting, you should be as unenthusiastic about us as i am
Ramona says:
yeah i know
David says:
studies have been done, incidentally
you know how your brain simulates what it sees happening to other people?
thats why people can cry at funerals whether or not they ever met the deceased
theyre subconsciously imagining if someone they loved died
anyway
in rationals, much less simulation is going on
our brains dont simulate what we see other people going through nearly as much
and thats why we have less empathy
Ramona says:
ok
David says:
like, if you saw me burned, your brain would act as if you had been
Ramona says:
ok
David says:
but when your nervous system returned a false alarm, you wouldnt feel burned
an empathetic person's brain does much more 'im burned' activity than a rational person's
and that extends to every form of empathy
so i just genuinely dont feel what you feel about people, yourself or the world
theres not anything we can do, as an INTJ and INFJ, to make it work
no matter how hard we wished or loved
Ramona says:
right, fine
David says:
id have to become emotional (something which would be a step back considering my past) or youd have to become rational (something you seem to think would destroy emotion but which would actually only destroy instability and misery), and i dont think either will happen
Ramona says:
ok
David says:
when i type long sentences
do you read the whole thing?
now
right now it seems like im pissed off or being arrogant or something
i honestly just want to know how you approach language, so i can either help you interpret it more literally or adjust it to make sense to you
eg:
id have to become emotional (something which would be a step back considering my past) or youd have to become rational (something you seem to think would destroy emotion but which would actually only destroy instability and misery), and i dont think either will happen
what would you take out of that?
be honest
pretend im not me, ill pretend youre not you
im seriously just gathering information
on how an INFJ interprets what an INTJ says
i know we misunderstand each other, but i want to pinpoint where/why/how, so we can fix it
Ramona says:
that can't be explained here
David says:
if i say that id have to become emotional for us to work
do you take it to mean
Ramona says:
but i will say that now i feel like i'm an experiment of yours for study. so try and work out that misinterpretation. While i sit here as always and tell myself that what you're saying is what you mean and try not to feel so confused about the whole situation
David says:
"we arent the same level of emotional. id have to become more so to be on a compatible level'
or do you take it to mean something more personal?
youre not an experiment in that im treating you differently
every human being, every interaction, is information to catalogue
i have difficulty communicating with you, and i care about you, so id like to have less difficulty
since i communicate in such a way as to mean exactly what the words mean in that order, i need to understand where that's being turned into what you think i mean
Ramona says:
oh and the first one with a little of the second
they are two thoughts in one
David says:
try to eliminate the personal side
at least where im concerned
because i dont mean 'i need to become more emotional because youre shit'
i mean
'im at x level and youre at y level and people at those levels arent compatible'
Ramona sends:


David says:
im actually INTx

Transfer of "Why INFJ's fall for INTP's.txt" is complete.

Ramona says:
wait
oh never mind
David says:
ive heard that INTPs get along really well with INFJs
and that INTJs get along really well with INFPs
Ramona says:
yeah so never mind
David says:
and in my experience i do get along well with INFPs
and with INFJs, until i have to explain something
as soon as miscommunication can lead to an INFJ getting offended, they will misunderstand and be offended, thats my experience
and even after you explain it
and they know what you meant
they still *feel* offended like you meant what they thought you did
where INTJ is the epitome of not letting your feelings affect your opinion
INFJ is the epitome of making sure your feelings ARE your opinion and not letting real life affect your feelings
Ramona says:
and how often have you known me to hold resentment for more than two seconds or be offended for much longer
ok can we just forget it
David says:
i cant decide between more beer and pizza
even if you dont harbour the feeling of resentment, what i really meant never sinks in
what i say gets translated into INFJ, and then forgiven or held onto, but never understood
and even right now
when i say never understoofd
you think im saying something about your intelligence
because its like you scan things i say
HOPING im saying something insulting, inventing insults if there arent any
then forgiving me if i explain you were wrong, instead of taking in the actual meaning
Ramona says:
ah man, its not like that, i'm not waiting for you to insult me, goddamn, how much esteem do you think i have. i'm aware of my sensitivity and am quite capable of monitoring it and taking everything you say as it comes. but sometimes, with your mixed messages and the confusion, i just can't make sense and the emotion takes over
ahahahahaha
David says:
it's not esteem related
i dont think you misinterpret me as insulting because of esteem, i think it's because of the way you interpret words
what mixed messages?
ive never said anything but 'nothing romantic ever'
whats mixed?
Ramona says:
ok
David says:
no, i asked because i want to know whats confusing you
does something about my behaviour indicate to you that something might happen?
if so, what?
this is stuff i need to know
seriously dude
this is important
i need to not give off those signals
if i am, i need to know how
Ramona says:
how about you go and read this conversation from the start
and just leave me alone for a while.
David says:
can you just try to be strong about me?
just face it
discuss it
properly
itll feel like shit during but after youll feel good
Ramona says:
why you're just prolonging my heartache
David says:
I AM?
ME?
IM DOING IT?
WHAT?
Ramona says:
this isn't fair on me and i'm not willing to participate any further than what i have
you can reread your notes above
David says:
i couldnt possibly be less psychologically attractive to you
except for physical attraction, i dont see what you could possibly want in me
Ramona says:
its not physical attraction alone you fuckwit, i've told you it's your brain, i want that fucking brain
David says:
again
Ramona says:
so go and read this and leave me alone
David says:
you felt the need to call me a fuckwit based on the fact that you thought i said you only wanted me physically
when what i actually said was that i didnt know what other than physical attraction existed
it was an enquiry
Ramona says:
because i've already told you this. DO YOU NOT LISTEN TO ANYTHING I SAY EVER????????????
David says:
and you dont want my brain
you want someone intelligent
but you dont want MY brain
Ramona says:
ok, i don't want you brain
David says:
because MY brain would spend its whole life correcting everything you do or feel
DO YOU NOT READ ANYTHING I TYPE EVER?
STOP BEING FUCKING EMO. APPROACH THIS LIKE A GROWN UP. DESCRIBE YOUR FEELINGS, DONT JUST SPEW THEM IN CAPS IN MY DIRECTION BECAUSE YOURE FRUSTRATED.
Ramona says:
for what point. i'm not prolonging this. find another infj to do this to.
David says:
to do this to?
like its my intention?
srsly, reality check
not everything you interpret as against you is designed to hurt you
the rest of the world just isnt that concerned with you
or me, or jon, or anyone
stop being dramatic
Ramona says:
did you not want to analyse me? just above, how did i misinterpret that?
David says:
i want to analyse you so that i can communicate with you better
you said
'to do this to'
maybe your inherent emotional bullshit stops you from seeing how loaded your questions and statements are
but nothing you say about what ive said doesnt imply i meant something i didnty
didnt*
like i said: david: a-->b-->c
ramona: so you're saying x?
david: i want to know how you tick
ramona: so youre saying im an experiment youre doing this to?
im tired of it, and im tired of being made out to be heartless for using language properly
Ramona says:
so whats the point of this exercise? as friends we communicate well on a range of subjects so there is no need for this analysis. the emotional aspect of this relationship is purely from my side and i see no need to expose myself further. it serves no purpose to us.
it just confuses me
David says:
it confuses you precisely because we allow ourselves to pretend nothing but a bit of communication is going on
just because i dont feel any turmoil over us, doesnt mean im ignorant to you feeling it
and i dont want you to keep feeling it
the point of this exercise is to maybe finally find a way to communicate where you actually know what the fuck im saying so we dont end up with you being angry over shti id didnt do again
shit
Ramona says:
ok
i really want to forget this i really do.
David says:
it's not your memory you need to work on
i mean, it's not like i always could just realise i was incompatible with someone and cut myself off romantically
it just kind of happens now, but it was the result of reading about reason/logic
those words somehow make you react like ive said 'cunt' or 'holocaust'
but all they offer is stability
 

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After reading that all I can say is that if I had been in your position I would have been crying my eyes out.

These are my thoughts as I read your conversation:

First thought “Wow what a JERK!”

What really pissed me of was when he said “id have to become emotional (something which would be a step back considering my past)”

I didn’t understand this! I took it as an insult that our empathy and feeling is insulting to him. The way he stereotypes INFJs is unbelievable. Instead of understanding you as a person he is looking at the profile of an INFJ and ticking you off the list of strengths and weaknesses.

He’s telling you what YOU need to work on and not looking at what HE could work on.

He calls you lazy yet you’re the one taking the effort trying to understand him when he blatantly can’t be bothered with you because you’re and INFJ and you're too much hard work.

I feel quite angry after reading that conversation.

I have to admit that some of what he said about INFJ’s taking things personally and reading too much into what someone is saying is true, for me anyway. But he seriously went the wrong way of telling you this.

To me it sounds like up until now his life has been running smoothly, he probably regards himself as being quite intelligent and because he can’t work you out it must be your fault not his. He’s blaming you for his weaknesses.
 

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Sounds like a typical INTJ to me. They don't see a need, and don't usually take into account of F.

He just doesn't understand. I would back away from him if I was in the same position. He isn't going to be accepting, instead he wants to change you.

What he said about INFJs isn't all right, even though it sounds like he is (INTJs are good at sounding logical). My feelings and intuition are my strengths, not my weaknesses. Trusting them I've come far in life. Sure they get in the way, but as enlightened individuals that we are, we realize this.

In the end he is actually immature. He can't understand that there's other types of people. He thinks he has it all worked out, when really he's just been lucky in life, or is hiding any pain he feels to feel strong and keep his composure.

I also get a hint that he is trolling you on some level.
 

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He sounds really pleased with himself...the bottom line is that the whole conversation revolved around rejecting you and telling you how to change...and you're taking it, approving it with saying you're confused and listening to him quietly, without letting him know that this kind of behavior would make you eventually abandon your friendship, which I think is important to state...he feels like he got you wrapped around his finger so there's no need for him to try and be nice, cause it seems like you're willing to stand it....

You're letting him know that his behavior is ok with you, cause it doesn't effect how much you want to be with him...
 

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For an INTJ he seems kinda stupid not just arrogant.
As far as the question of if you was lucid or not, when dealing with an idiot how lucid can one be?


No offense to any INTJ's out there
 

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I could say... "He should have been more sensitive", but I know INTJs better than that. My best friend is one... and he's quite a character... lol

I hope I don't re-open a healing wound by saying this... but looks to me like his rant has a deeper cause than he let on. When he talks about how he used to be an F and that it was a bad time in his life... it makes me wonder if he used to be an INFJ and maybe had a very bad time of it :mellow:

I read frustration and embarrassment from him. I don't think he intended to seduce you... though he was laying on the flirtation pretty thick.

Intentions aside... when you started falling for him... he shouldn't have acted that way.

Try not to think about this too much. I know from personal experience it's tough to shake the melencholy if you let it get too much of a hold on you... So call up some friends... you know... the ones who actually love you? Forget that guy and go out and have fun. :wink: Maybe soon when the mood is right you can IM him again, and you can put the business behind you.

Best of luck Ramona
 

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To be blunt -no, you're not being entirely lucid.

In some instances, he may be correct in his criticism, though. Particularly in the idea that you shouldn't let life just happen to you, and that you probably shouldn't let your emotions rule you to the extent in which they probably are. Otherwise, he seems very self conscious, manipulative, and somewhat moronic.

Look, being demanding and knowing what you want, and what you stand for is one thing. This is a sign of confidence. Being a total arrogant, condescending, critical jerk is another. Either he likes you and is too cowardly to take any action, or he's trying to get over his self confidence issues by projecting power over you. If you saw it in this light.. would you still be attracted?

Know what *you* want. If you want some guy who will needlessly criticize you over everything, disregard your feelings, act all Mr-Smarty-Pants, *AND* have a physical relationship, well I'm sure you can find a plethora.
 

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OMG, I couldn't read the whole thing, I was getting a headache and wanted to puke.

I have met a number of "T" types who believe that their lack of ability to understand and harness their own emotions is actually a sign of superiority. I don't know if your friend was one of these but it sounded like it.

I believe that a true friend will appreciate who you are (as you are) and not try to convince you that you really should be something else.

I have more observations to make but I have to go right now. I actually do think he appreciates you and just doesn't know how to communicate that. Anyway, I appreciate you posting that conversation.
 

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What I would do is stop communicating with this person. By that I do not mean send the person notice that you are no longer communicating. By that I do not mean deleting him from your facebook account, or anything else. I do not mean big, emotional gestures of any kind or even that you need to be angry or anything else in the process. What I mean is, no contact. This is for your own good.

INTJs in my life (a list which includes my husband of 8 years, my father, and my 3 closest girlfriends) often hide behind logic, and they're good at it if we allow ourselves to believe we are actually weaker than them. He is using your personality type as a weapon because he doesn't want to have a relationship with you and has no intention of doing so.

On the upside, you don't have to keep explaining or defending your personality either. Furthermore, I would answer your statement about needing to know you aren't "what he says" with: You aren't, and you shouldn't be allowing yourself to be defined based on the motives and words of this one guy.

We all like to be wanted and chased as I am sure he is on some level enjoying it, but this is not a relationship that you are gaining anything from. I married an INTJ but he treats me like an equal and we respect our differences, and we use every opportunity to explain our experiences in order to understand each others process of reasoning. It's a useful and rewarding exchange. We're not perfect, and sometimes our dominant traits cause each other trouble, but it can be done. Your friend, however, doesn't want to put in the work and you cannot change his mind by begging or continuing these conversations.

If you insist on communicating with this person (which I imagine you will), and if I were in your shoes and determined to keep having these one-sided dialogues, I would do exactly what he keeps insisting:

Shut off your need to intuitively interpret. Use logic, and take his words at face value. No interpreting. It takes some practice but it's a terribly useful trait to understand. Employing this tactic can help you take your overwhelming emotion and attachment out of the equation and see things from the perspective of an INTJ.

The simplest explanation of the situation is this: He's not just telling you that you aren't compatible in his mind, he's really also telling you that in no way is he interested in putting in the work to creating real compatibility. If he was, it'd be a whole different conversation involving mutual respect.

Respect yourself, and your personality type and don't let someone else tell you who you are.

Sorry if I come off strong, I sometimes do. I'm new to this board and mean no harm.
 

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I would do exactly what he keeps insisting:

Shut off your need to intuitively interpret. Use logic, and take his words at face value. No interpreting. It takes some practice but it's a terribly useful trait to understand. Employing this tactic can help you take your overwhelming emotion and attachment out of the equation and see things from the perspective of an INTJ.

The simplest explanation of the situation is this: He's not just telling you that you aren't compatible in his mind, he's really also telling you that in no way is he interested in putting in the work to creating real compatibility. If he was, it'd be a whole different conversation involving mutual respect.

Respect yourself, and your personality type and don't let someone else tell you who you are.
I think this is excellent advice. I wanted to add (what I didn't have time to finish earlier) that it seems to me that he wants you to learn to communicate more "logically" which may be easier for him, but he doesn't seem to want to learn to speak your language. I'm just guessing, based on what you posted, but it seems he thinks his way of communicating (which in his view is logical) is inherently superior. Whether or not it is, which is a question for a different thread, I completely agree with AriaD that a true friendship involves mutual respect.
 
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"since i communicate in such a way as to mean exactly what the words mean in that order, i need to understand where that's being turned into what you think i mean" - your friend is definitely an INTP - he is rationalizing things to his internal manner, he has run a simulation of relationship in his mind and requires no 'experimental evidence', overly critical (which is both a good and a bad thing), he has encountered something his Ti is having trouble analyzing (you) - a 'mystery' he is interested in now

"INFJ is the epitome of making sure your feelings ARE your opinion and not letting real life affect your feelings" ..."maybe your inherent emotional bullshit stops you from seeing how loaded your questions and statements are, but nothing you say about what ive said doesnt imply i meant something i didnty" - Fe in fact is objective feeling that take input directly from real life - this part of reality is however his own blind spot, because Fe is inferior function of INTPs, he doesn't see it thus tries to downplay its importance rejecting it as "bullshit" - feelings is an area of frustration for him

he has been honest with his objective in interacting with you - but his feeling side is quite underdeveloped so he put it very bluntly coming off as a jerk, but do appreciate the guy's honesty - he is not playing games with you, he was actually very straightforward that he wants to understand you better

as a strong Ti user with he will downplay your worth - do not take his words to be any measure of your own value, and then you can communicate to him better in his own language - that very thing that you find repulsive is also the same thing that draws you towards him
 

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I have met a number of "T" types who believe that their lack of ability to understand and harness their own emotions is actually a sign of superiority. I don't know if your friend was one of these but it sounded like it.

I believe that a true friend will appreciate who you are (as you are) and not try to convince you that you really should be something else.

I have more observations to make but I have to go right now. I actually do think he appreciates you and just doesn't know how to communicate that. Anyway, I appreciate you posting that conversation.
Yes I totally agree! I used to be like that. Luckily a family member who is an INFJ put much of her soul into making me accept the value of emotions. I still suck at it, but I will admit that her courage and ability to see beyond herself has changed my opinion. For me, emotions can be used as a catalyst to action (thinkers can quickly become nihilistic). Logic and emotion together can create something more powerful than logic alone (look at art). Do not worry about thinkers, many of us retarded our emotional growth and hate to admit our incompetency (me being one). It is hard though, because many of us cannot feel emotions easily. We often have to see intense emotions (usually bad ones) before we become aware of our own. I do not know what I would do without INFJ's in the world. We have our own languages and I want to learn to be good at both (apologies but I will prefer logic more):wink:

As for the original poster, to be honest I did not read the whole thing. However, I got the gist of the fact that this guy is insecure and wants to validate his opinions by changing yours. You have to decide whether it is worth it for you to continue in order to change his mind. Sadly you INFJs have so much empathy and I hope he does not take advantage
 
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