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I was bored one night (again) and doing a search for tritypes when I accidentally stumbled on this gem:
Enneagram
Here's some of my favourite quotes with my commentary from a rather hostile viewpoint (I'm feeling bitchy what can I say? Just a warning :wink
And before anyone jumps on my possibly inaccurate knowledge of Catholicism, I admit I was a Catholic, but I never said I was a good one lol, so feel free to correct me. I've included most of the relevant parts but the lnk to the whole things is above in case anyone is interested in reading about the whole thing.
And yes, this is kind of yet another one of those "religion bashing threads" but this one is strictly aimed at the Catholic Church's ridiculous declarations on the Enneagram (I guess all Catholics, if any are involved in Enneagram study better stop participating on PC then lol :wink:.) However, discussing this Enneagram bashing article I think it's rather appropriate for this forum. So let's all drop those evil egos and have at it then shall we?
Catholicism has not been tested by professional psychologists too nor any other religion for that matter, so I guess we have no evidence any of this is true, by their own definition. And no the Bible doesn't count here because the Enneagram had been written down at some point to be passed on so that itself would make the Enneagram (and any other book or written word) true by that definition. You can't have it both ways. It's irresponsible to pass of anything as true that hasn't been proven to be? I suppose the Inquisition and burning of "witches" at the stakes wasn't irresponsible, nor is allowing priests who've been proven to molest children to continue in the Church either. Nor taking money from the poor and elderly for all the pure golden building and gold stuff they have that they could melt down and actually give to the poor and elderly (Oh but that would be defeating the purpose wouldn't it?) and use that for their missions instead of guilting the most vulnerable parishioners scrape their last pennies and give them up. I wonder how many karats those things are? I hear the "Dollars for Gold" people are now accepting gold in exchange for cash, here's your opportunity to do the right thing and capitalize! (As if...)
Dangerous? Again what does the Enneagram have to do with spirituality? It may have had it's roots there but now it's a psychological tool that even businesses find useful to build effective teams. Oh great, here come the Biblical quotes to illustrate their points without actually explaining to the reader what it actually means. Not that I care but some might...
Hear that Christians? You're not helping! Sinners! How exactly are these poor people supposed to remove sin from their lives when they are constantly told that's what they are and as long as you're living you'll remain that way? By sin type to sin type, I believe they're talking about the "7 deadly sins + 2 more" thing. I don't remember anything anywhere that says to embrace those "sins". Where did they get those descriptions of 2's and 6's? They sound pretty made up to me, but then again this is the Catholic Church we are talking about so I guess it's not surprising. Again, you say deviance and disobedience like they're bad things.
Discuss, bash, whatever. :happy:
Enneagram
Here's some of my favourite quotes with my commentary from a rather hostile viewpoint (I'm feeling bitchy what can I say? Just a warning :wink
And yes, this is kind of yet another one of those "religion bashing threads" but this one is strictly aimed at the Catholic Church's ridiculous declarations on the Enneagram (I guess all Catholics, if any are involved in Enneagram study better stop participating on PC then lol :wink:.) However, discussing this Enneagram bashing article I think it's rather appropriate for this forum. So let's all drop those evil egos and have at it then shall we?
Wow, look at all the "asshole quotes". I can tell this is gonna be an objective piece.From link above said:More and more frequently the Enneagram is sold as a " modern psychological method" to make one "more effective in dealing with others." The "spiritual" connection is downplayed and the secular "business value" is emphasized. With modern "scientific" principles espoused, who could argue with wanting "self-improvement?"
Could it be the same type of disillusionment most ex-Catholics like myself have...hmmm, you'd think that would give them a clue that they're doing something wrong? At least he tried something rather than pointlessly guilt himself over stupid little things the rest of his life and confess all those little things for the amusement of whomever is listening at the time. If you ask me depression is the real hell but, whatever. Wish I could have tried half the things this guy did. Oh well I've found myself without most of those things and that's all that counts :wink:From link above said:Fr. Pacwa writes about Oscar Ichazo: "The occult also influenced Oscar Ichazo's life and writings. At age six he began having out-of-body experiences, which led to his disillusionment with the Church. He could not accept Catholic teachings on Heaven or hell since he had been there and knew more about it than Christ and the Church.
Later he learned that living in one's ego was the real hell. To gain control of his own consciousness, he studied Oriental martial arts, Zen, Andes Indian thought, psychedelic drugs, shamanism, yoga, hypnotism and psychology. He joined esoteric groups in Bolivia and Argentina and travelled to Hong Kong, India and Tibet to study mysticism."
Riiiiiiight. Isn't it impossible to become holy or become like Jesus? That's what I have heard anyway, that there is no point in really trying. Not my view of course, but I have read plenty of posts everywhere, heard people say that it's impossible. Here we go again with the "asshole quotes" (I prefer "bitchy italics" myself). WTF does "dying to self" mean? Maybe "grace" (See? 2 can play at that.) is missing from the Enneagram for a reason. It's supposed to be an occult tool of the Gnostics that pre-dates and of that stuff after all so how or why would anyone expect "grace" to be included when that seems to be a later concept that the Catholics came up with. Geez, you say "dissent" and like it's a bad thing! If the ego were evil why have one? I thought we were "made in god's image" and humans designed the Enneagram, doesn't that make him evil too? What's wrong with the study of compulsions and ego? Most religions are absent those sacraments but I don't hear the Catholic Church dare call those "heathen Jews" or every other non-Catholic practice evil. At least not these days :wink: Ohhhh, that's right they're "the one true Church" (just like the Mormons, the Jehovah's, etc.)From link above said:Authentic Catholic study of self is rooted in becoming holy, that is conforming as best as possible to Jesus Christ our Savior. While the Enneagram focuses on "self-improvement" via human understanding, the Catholic focuses on his or her littleness, weakness and total dependence on God's Grace. Catholic "self-improvement" means "intimate union with Christ" - the more in union we are with Him the more holy we are. In other words, dying to self, decreasing so that God may increase within us.
The support and action of God via His Grace is totally missing from the Enneagram. Great spiritual works by St. John of the Cross (Ascent of Mt. Carmel and Dark Night of the Soul) emphasize properly the top place that God has in our "self-improvement" towards holiness. The Enneagram is totally self-centered - that is based on pure human ego. As with other dissenter systems, holiness is also completely absent from the Enneagram, which instead focuses on ego and compulsions. Also noticeably absent is the need for the Sacraments of the Church on the path to holiness.
If things that are based on Pagan beliefs, then I guess we better cancel Christmas huh? Where does the Enneagram say anything about salvation? That's not what I've been using it for...From link above said:The origin of the Enneagram certainly does not come from Catholic sources. Besides its occult roots, the Enneagram is built upon pagan beliefs. Therefore, like horoscopes, the Enneagram is absolutely incompatible with the Catholic Faith.
Father Pacwa says: "I have two criticisms [of Enneagram]. First, it's theological nonsense, suffused with Gnostic ideas. For instance, the nine points of the Enneagram are called the "nine faces of God," which become nine demons turned upside down. No one should speak that way. . . . And the way the Enneagram is taught is Pelagian -- self-salvation through a man-made technique, not by God's grace. Secondly, this is a psychological system that hasn't been tested by professional psychologists. We have no independent evidence that it's true. As a result, Enneagram experts -- who aren't necessarily aware of the occult aspects -- are making up descriptions as they go along. It's irresponsible to pass this off as true."
Catholicism has not been tested by professional psychologists too nor any other religion for that matter, so I guess we have no evidence any of this is true, by their own definition. And no the Bible doesn't count here because the Enneagram had been written down at some point to be passed on so that itself would make the Enneagram (and any other book or written word) true by that definition. You can't have it both ways. It's irresponsible to pass of anything as true that hasn't been proven to be? I suppose the Inquisition and burning of "witches" at the stakes wasn't irresponsible, nor is allowing priests who've been proven to molest children to continue in the Church either. Nor taking money from the poor and elderly for all the pure golden building and gold stuff they have that they could melt down and actually give to the poor and elderly (Oh but that would be defeating the purpose wouldn't it?) and use that for their missions instead of guilting the most vulnerable parishioners scrape their last pennies and give them up. I wonder how many karats those things are? I hear the "Dollars for Gold" people are now accepting gold in exchange for cash, here's your opportunity to do the right thing and capitalize! (As if...)
Again with the lack of proof thing. There are no scientific studies on Catholicism and I'm willing to bet a shitload that doesn't bother anyone either. The more I read the Bible the more I become anarchistic, anti-religious and misanthropic. WTF is a college-educated horoscope and where can I find one? I hope their better than the ones I get in the paper every week.From link above said:Msgr. William Smith in [3] states similarly: "The basic premise of the Enneagram is that there are nine and only nine personality types; this is simply given as true, it is nowhere demonstrated as proven. To my knowledge, there are no scientific studies to determine whether Enneagram theory can be integrated with other typologies; but that would not really bother some advocates one way or the other... The more you read about it, the more it begins to resemble a college-educated horoscope; and that is not compatible with Catholic doctrine or practice. ...."
"As a tool for spiritual direction, it seems to me most deficient, even dangerous. The Enneagram is really built on a theology (?)-perhaps ideology-of self-renewal and self-regeneration that is a far cry from (perhaps contradiction of) the Gospel teaching: 'Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit' (John 12:24)"
Ranaghan also observes that Christian proponents of the Enneagram encourage practitioners to deny their Christian standards to deal with their problems. Promoting sin to obtain so-called "self-improvement" is the exact opposite of Catholic teaching. Holiness, the Catholic "self-improvement," is based on removal of sin from our lives.
"Progress in the Enneagram seems to be movement from one sin type to another sin type. Persons who are 2s (the 'nervous breakdowns' in the world) need, according to Sister Mary Helen Kelley, to 'come to conscious selfishness' for redemption. Sister Barbara Metz states that 'to come to wholeness . . . the 6 (the loyalist) needs to walk into the darkness of deviance and disobedience."
Dangerous? Again what does the Enneagram have to do with spirituality? It may have had it's roots there but now it's a psychological tool that even businesses find useful to build effective teams. Oh great, here come the Biblical quotes to illustrate their points without actually explaining to the reader what it actually means. Not that I care but some might...
Hear that Christians? You're not helping! Sinners! How exactly are these poor people supposed to remove sin from their lives when they are constantly told that's what they are and as long as you're living you'll remain that way? By sin type to sin type, I believe they're talking about the "7 deadly sins + 2 more" thing. I don't remember anything anywhere that says to embrace those "sins". Where did they get those descriptions of 2's and 6's? They sound pretty made up to me, but then again this is the Catholic Church we are talking about so I guess it's not surprising. Again, you say deviance and disobedience like they're bad things.
Does "following error" include following a text that more often than not contradicts itself or attending a church where a priest eventually gets found out to have been a child molester (a homosexual one at that!)? Wait I thought the church hierarchy was infallible. So now they aren't? Make up your fricken minds sheesh! I can also safely say my prayers are not inspired by Christ, so that makes them invalid, pagan and of the occult? I for one, am eternally grateful that I am no longer on that way and that has nothing to do with the Enneagram either. :laughing:From link above said:Conclusion
The Enneagram has found a home in many Catholic places, both in parishes and retreat centers. Many religious support and teach the Enneagram. Unfortunately, as we learn from Church history, being religious does not prevent a person from following falling away from the Faith (apostasy) or following error (e.g. heresy) - in fact many Bishops have started heresies in the past.
Best would be to follow the advice of Pope John Paul II who said on Nov. 1st, 1982: "Any method of prayer is valid insofar as it is inspired by Christ and leads to Christ who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6)." The Enneagram, an occult pagan tool, is focused on self and therefore leads us away from the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Have nothing to do with the Enneagram.
Discuss, bash, whatever. :happy: