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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was bored one night (again) and doing a search for tritypes when I accidentally stumbled on this gem:
Enneagram

Here's some of my favourite quotes with my commentary from a rather hostile viewpoint (I'm feeling bitchy what can I say? Just a warning :wink:) And before anyone jumps on my possibly inaccurate knowledge of Catholicism, I admit I was a Catholic, but I never said I was a good one lol, so feel free to correct me. I've included most of the relevant parts but the lnk to the whole things is above in case anyone is interested in reading about the whole thing.

And yes, this is kind of yet another one of those "religion bashing threads" but this one is strictly aimed at the Catholic Church's ridiculous declarations on the Enneagram (I guess all Catholics, if any are involved in Enneagram study better stop participating on PC then lol :wink:.) However, discussing this Enneagram bashing article I think it's rather appropriate for this forum. So let's all drop those evil egos and have at it then shall we?

From link above said:
More and more frequently the Enneagram is sold as a " modern psychological method" to make one "more effective in dealing with others." The "spiritual" connection is downplayed and the secular "business value" is emphasized. With modern "scientific" principles espoused, who could argue with wanting "self-improvement?"
Wow, look at all the "asshole quotes". I can tell this is gonna be an objective piece.

From link above said:
Fr. Pacwa writes about Oscar Ichazo: "The occult also influenced Oscar Ichazo's life and writings. At age six he began having out-of-body experiences, which led to his disillusionment with the Church. He could not accept Catholic teachings on Heaven or hell since he had been there and knew more about it than Christ and the Church.

Later he learned that living in one's ego was the real hell. To gain control of his own consciousness, he studied Oriental martial arts, Zen, Andes Indian thought, psychedelic drugs, shamanism, yoga, hypnotism and psychology. He joined esoteric groups in Bolivia and Argentina and travelled to Hong Kong, India and Tibet to study mysticism."
Could it be the same type of disillusionment most ex-Catholics like myself have...hmmm, you'd think that would give them a clue that they're doing something wrong? At least he tried something rather than pointlessly guilt himself over stupid little things the rest of his life and confess all those little things for the amusement of whomever is listening at the time. If you ask me depression is the real hell but, whatever. Wish I could have tried half the things this guy did. Oh well I've found myself without most of those things and that's all that counts :wink:

From link above said:
Authentic Catholic study of self is rooted in becoming holy, that is conforming as best as possible to Jesus Christ our Savior. While the Enneagram focuses on "self-improvement" via human understanding, the Catholic focuses on his or her littleness, weakness and total dependence on God's Grace. Catholic "self-improvement" means "intimate union with Christ" - the more in union we are with Him the more holy we are. In other words, dying to self, decreasing so that God may increase within us.

The support and action of God via His Grace is totally missing from the Enneagram. Great spiritual works by St. John of the Cross (Ascent of Mt. Carmel and Dark Night of the Soul) emphasize properly the top place that God has in our "self-improvement" towards holiness. The Enneagram is totally self-centered - that is based on pure human ego. As with other dissenter systems, holiness is also completely absent from the Enneagram, which instead focuses on ego and compulsions. Also noticeably absent is the need for the Sacraments of the Church on the path to holiness.
Riiiiiiight. Isn't it impossible to become holy or become like Jesus? That's what I have heard anyway, that there is no point in really trying. Not my view of course, but I have read plenty of posts everywhere, heard people say that it's impossible. Here we go again with the "asshole quotes" (I prefer "bitchy italics" myself). WTF does "dying to self" mean? Maybe "grace" (See? 2 can play at that.) is missing from the Enneagram for a reason. It's supposed to be an occult tool of the Gnostics that pre-dates and of that stuff after all so how or why would anyone expect "grace" to be included when that seems to be a later concept that the Catholics came up with. Geez, you say "dissent" and like it's a bad thing! If the ego were evil why have one? I thought we were "made in god's image" and humans designed the Enneagram, doesn't that make him evil too? What's wrong with the study of compulsions and ego? Most religions are absent those sacraments but I don't hear the Catholic Church dare call those "heathen Jews" or every other non-Catholic practice evil. At least not these days :wink: Ohhhh, that's right they're "the one true Church" (just like the Mormons, the Jehovah's, etc.)

From link above said:
The origin of the Enneagram certainly does not come from Catholic sources. Besides its occult roots, the Enneagram is built upon pagan beliefs. Therefore, like horoscopes, the Enneagram is absolutely incompatible with the Catholic Faith.

Father Pacwa says: "I have two criticisms [of Enneagram]. First, it's theological nonsense, suffused with Gnostic ideas. For instance, the nine points of the Enneagram are called the "nine faces of God," which become nine demons turned upside down. No one should speak that way. . . . And the way the Enneagram is taught is Pelagian -- self-salvation through a man-made technique, not by God's grace. Secondly, this is a psychological system that hasn't been tested by professional psychologists. We have no independent evidence that it's true. As a result, Enneagram experts -- who aren't necessarily aware of the occult aspects -- are making up descriptions as they go along. It's irresponsible to pass this off as true."
If things that are based on Pagan beliefs, then I guess we better cancel Christmas huh? Where does the Enneagram say anything about salvation? That's not what I've been using it for...

Catholicism has not been tested by professional psychologists too nor any other religion for that matter, so I guess we have no evidence any of this is true, by their own definition. And no the Bible doesn't count here because the Enneagram had been written down at some point to be passed on so that itself would make the Enneagram (and any other book or written word) true by that definition. You can't have it both ways. It's irresponsible to pass of anything as true that hasn't been proven to be? I suppose the Inquisition and burning of "witches" at the stakes wasn't irresponsible, nor is allowing priests who've been proven to molest children to continue in the Church either. Nor taking money from the poor and elderly for all the pure golden building and gold stuff they have that they could melt down and actually give to the poor and elderly (Oh but that would be defeating the purpose wouldn't it?) and use that for their missions instead of guilting the most vulnerable parishioners scrape their last pennies and give them up. I wonder how many karats those things are? I hear the "Dollars for Gold" people are now accepting gold in exchange for cash, here's your opportunity to do the right thing and capitalize! (As if...)

From link above said:
Msgr. William Smith in [3] states similarly: "The basic premise of the Enneagram is that there are nine and only nine personality types; this is simply given as true, it is nowhere demonstrated as proven. To my knowledge, there are no scientific studies to determine whether Enneagram theory can be integrated with other typologies; but that would not really bother some advocates one way or the other... The more you read about it, the more it begins to resemble a college-educated horoscope; and that is not compatible with Catholic doctrine or practice. ...."

"As a tool for spiritual direction, it seems to me most deficient, even dangerous. The Enneagram is really built on a theology (?)-perhaps ideology-of self-renewal and self-regeneration that is a far cry from (perhaps contradiction of) the Gospel teaching: 'Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit' (John 12:24)"

Ranaghan also observes that Christian proponents of the Enneagram encourage practitioners to deny their Christian standards to deal with their problems. Promoting sin to obtain so-called "self-improvement" is the exact opposite of Catholic teaching. Holiness, the Catholic "self-improvement," is based on removal of sin from our lives.

"Progress in the Enneagram seems to be movement from one sin type to another sin type. Persons who are 2s (the 'nervous breakdowns' in the world) need, according to Sister Mary Helen Kelley, to 'come to conscious selfishness' for redemption. Sister Barbara Metz states that 'to come to wholeness . . . the 6 (the loyalist) needs to walk into the darkness of deviance and disobedience."
Again with the lack of proof thing. There are no scientific studies on Catholicism and I'm willing to bet a shitload that doesn't bother anyone either. The more I read the Bible the more I become anarchistic, anti-religious and misanthropic. WTF is a college-educated horoscope and where can I find one? I hope their better than the ones I get in the paper every week.

Dangerous? Again what does the Enneagram have to do with spirituality? It may have had it's roots there but now it's a psychological tool that even businesses find useful to build effective teams. Oh great, here come the Biblical quotes to illustrate their points without actually explaining to the reader what it actually means. Not that I care but some might...

Hear that Christians? You're not helping! Sinners! How exactly are these poor people supposed to remove sin from their lives when they are constantly told that's what they are and as long as you're living you'll remain that way? By sin type to sin type, I believe they're talking about the "7 deadly sins + 2 more" thing. I don't remember anything anywhere that says to embrace those "sins". Where did they get those descriptions of 2's and 6's? They sound pretty made up to me, but then again this is the Catholic Church we are talking about so I guess it's not surprising. Again, you say deviance and disobedience like they're bad things.

From link above said:
Conclusion
The Enneagram has found a home in many Catholic places, both in parishes and retreat centers. Many religious support and teach the Enneagram. Unfortunately, as we learn from Church history, being religious does not prevent a person from following falling away from the Faith (apostasy) or following error (e.g. heresy) - in fact many Bishops have started heresies in the past.

Best would be to follow the advice of Pope John Paul II who said on Nov. 1st, 1982: "Any method of prayer is valid insofar as it is inspired by Christ and leads to Christ who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6)." The Enneagram, an occult pagan tool, is focused on self and therefore leads us away from the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Have nothing to do with the Enneagram.
Does "following error" include following a text that more often than not contradicts itself or attending a church where a priest eventually gets found out to have been a child molester (a homosexual one at that!)? Wait I thought the church hierarchy was infallible. So now they aren't? Make up your fricken minds sheesh! I can also safely say my prayers are not inspired by Christ, so that makes them invalid, pagan and of the occult? I for one, am eternally grateful that I am no longer on that way and that has nothing to do with the Enneagram either. :laughing:

Discuss, bash, whatever. :happy:
 

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Oh, I don't know. I'm not big on the enneagram, but mine's pretty accurate.

I think that as long as it is not supplanting faith, it should be okay for Catholics. After all, I don't see anyone freaking out against yoga, although it started out as a form of prayer.

Some things get taken way too far.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
OP said:
Originally Posted by From link above
Fr. Pacwa writes about Oscar Ichazo: "The occult also influenced Oscar Ichazo's life and writings. At age six he began having out-of-body experiences, which led to his disillusionment with the Church. He could not accept Catholic teachings on Heaven or hell since he had been there and knew more about it than Christ and the Church.

Later he learned that living in one's ego was the real hell. To gain control of his own consciousness, he studied Oriental martial arts, Zen, Andes Indian thought, psychedelic drugs, shamanism, yoga, hypnotism and psychology. He joined esoteric groups in Bolivia and Argentina and travelled to Hong Kong, India and Tibet to study mysticism."
Sorry about the format here and in OP, I was unsure what to do for quoting stuff from elsewhere lol.

Apparently Pacwa has a problem with yoga or I'm completely misreading into what he's saying. I wouldn't be surprised if I was misreading but, just in case :happy:
 

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I guess I am just saying, some people take orthodoxy and piety way too far. Just because one guy says it doesn't mean that 1billion people have to agree to it (unless that guy is the Pope).
:wink:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I really need to pay attention to what I type and see if it would make sense to anyone other than me. I hope I didn't give the impression I was suggesting everyone or a whole lot were in agreement. I was just amused at the fact the guy actually mentions yoga as one of those bad things lol. I've never been a fan of orthodoxy an I don't think I ever will, I'm way too rebellious for that, not that that's a bad thing :tongue:
 

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First thing - this was really well laid out. You might want to make a blog out of this

I wouldn't be surprised if more than this guy and more than the Catholic church has a problem with self-help. Churches are in the business of that so anything we do to get in their way is a big no no.

I became an atheism at an early age but that didn't stop me from being an alter boy because I did see that the church gives comfort to some people and for that it is needed. We just need the church to stay out of our business and we will stay out of theirs.

Good post
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
First thing - this was really well laid out. You might want to make a blog out of this

I wouldn't be surprised if more than this guy and more than the Catholic church has a problem with self-help. Churches are in the business of that so anything we do to get in their way is a big no no.

I became an atheism at an early age but that didn't stop me from being an alter boy because I did see that the church gives comfort to some people and for that it is needed. We just need the church to stay out of our business and we will stay out of theirs.

Good post
Thankies :happy: I've never blogged anywhere :blushed: Is there an advantage to having that in this forum? I was initially worried that I'd offend too many people when I got done that I wonder how exactly this thread will go lol. I was kind of in a rotten mood and need to get some hostility out and I had already planned on addressing this article. This is actually one of the ones I was talking to you about in PM. That and I forgot the other one I was gonna do lol.

I feel bad for the practitioners really, it's nothing against them, I have a problem with the institution, well any institution come to think of it lol. I've done the mass thing too (I'm not sure what they call the females that arae up in front helping the priest), I hate to admit it was because my friend who also did it said she got paid 2$ for every session. :tongue: And don't knock it, in my day and at 9ish 2$ could actually buy something lol! :tongue:

I agree, I wish everyone would stay out of my business that I didn't want anywhere near it. :crazy:
 

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The Enneagram personality theory, on the surface, is not contradictory to Catholicism. Similarly yoga, on the surface, is just a form of exercise and thus not contradictory to Catholicism. I'm coming close to bending the rules a bit here, but even horoscopes, on the very surface, are just daily random advice and thus not contradictory to Catholicism.

As long as you only view these things on the surface there's nothing wrong with them. Please be a bit more educated about what you're talking about in the future is what I would like to say to OP and the person who wrote the OA. Learn not to take everything you read as fact, and everything you see as proof. As was said in the OA
the more you read about it the more it resembles a college educated horoscope
Most people today don't read about it, as proved by OP's post, and do not practice anything beyond the surface personality theory, just like most people don't wait for the stars to align to visit family.

The origin of the Enneagram certainly does not come from Catholic sources. Besides its occult roots, the Enneagram is built upon pagan beliefs. Therefore, like horoscopes, the Enneagram is absolutely incompatible with the Catholic Faith.
The enneagram's occult origins are almost completely forgotten. Saying this is like saying, "bonfires parties have occult origins and are thus absolutely incompatible with the Catholic Faith."

I'm not a fan of how the Church cleaned house, I could have done better with my hand tied to my ankle. Unfortunately the Church, and the rest of the world for that matter, isn't run by ISTJs as is blatantly obvious by the state of affairs.

You rarely get into enneagram or any personality typing to learn about others, it's almost always yourself, but learning to use it as a tool to interact better with other people is actually a good thing.

Edit:
I feel bad for the practitioners really, it's nothing against them, I have a problem with the institution, well any institution come to think of it lol. I've done the mass thing too (I'm not sure what they call the females that arae up in front helping the priest), I hate to admit it was because my friend who also did it said she got paid 2$ for every session. :tongue: And don't knock it, in my day and at 9ish 2$ could actually buy something lol! :tongue:
Meh, the institution is not the problem, it's the horrible writing abilities of whoever wrote the OA. I know where he was going, but in today's world it's pretty irrelevant.
Ah, and the girl or boy helping the priest is called an alter server.
 

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I feel bad for the practitioners really, it's nothing against them, I have a problem with the institution, well any institution come to think of it lol. I've done the mass thing too (I'm not sure what they call the females that arae up in front helping the priest), I hate to admit it was because my friend who also did it said she got paid 2$ for every session. :tongue: And don't knock it, in my day and at 9ish 2$ could actually buy something lol! :tongue:
The people helping the priest at the altar are called altar servers. I've never heard of them getting paid.
 

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The people helping the priest at the altar are called altar servers. I've never heard of them getting paid.

My parents used to pay me to be an alter boy. :)
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I don't remember ever being called anything but me and my friend used to call it serving (in French mind you, then again it's the same exact word)
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Please be a bit more educated about what you're talking about in the future is what I would like to say to OP and the person who wrote the OA. Learn not to take everything you read as fact, and everything you see as proof.
I don't know if you saw but I did say I wasn't the best person to comment on some things having been a terrible ex-Catholic lol :wink:

Meh, the institution is not the problem, it's the horrible writing abilities of whoever wrote the OA. I know where he was going, but in today's world it's pretty irrelevant.
Ah, and the girl or boy helping the priest is called an alter server.
Yeah I just thought it was a rather amusing article, myself. I don't take this kind of thing seriously either :happy:

Thank you :)
 

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The more I read the Bible the more I become anarchistic, anti-religious and misanthropic.
I'm with you there, but the difference is I don't really read the bible. I just observed how most people quoted the bible.

IMO, the bible and the structured organization of catholic or its variants are the main issue that is causing it to lose its appeal and its validity.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I've been to a site that showed some of the most awful verses mostly in old testament but still...I'm sure most religious scriptures have some of the same types of things, but a question I wonder about is how are we supposed to believe that this is a god of love and not a god with multiple personality disorder?
 
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