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This thread is made to confront the idea that ENTJ is some how magically successful. This is not a thread to make excuses for for a bad situation, but to acknowledge fallacy in typification.

I have seen a lot of threads that talk about success and ENTJ types etc. My gripe is that an ENTJ from a poor background might make use of a situation that is considered to be immoral or low class in order to rise above their situation. I think people like to pretend that ENTJ's are a bunch of driven people who will just transcend any situation they are confronted with. As if there are no unhealthy ENTJ's who make the best of given situations despite moral implications.

Maybe it's a bit of a a leap to expose myself on this level, but I absolutely don't give a rats ass what anybody thinks.

There is a bad idea that ENTJ could not succumb to immediate success without long range planning.

There is also another stupid idea that if you don't fit into a mold of MBTI or Keirsey descriptives that one must not be and ENTJ.

I don't think many of you are really thinking.

As if All ENTJ's are CEO's, or as if they all have credentials that are noteworthy in the eyes of others who have success.

I personally am an executive of a branch of restaurants. I made it here within one and a half years. I went from prison to making sandwiches at the first job I could find and worked my way up and jumped forward into better positions until I arrived where I am at. I am not crazy about the idea that I have to deal with food service, but with a felony record and owning my own record label that was recognized all over Europe and many other countries, to losing my place in a fast paced social environment due to having to deal with a few of my own mistakes, you take your good with you bad and try to regain status where you can. You keep chugging forward.

I constantly get comments from my boss saying that I am worth a million in the business world, and a billion in the streets. But I have met other people in low places (gang leaders etc.) who are for sure ENTJ or ENTP types that are the king of their little fishbowls and are expanding.

I absolutely detest the idea that people imply moral or ethical standards to typology. That is probably the worst type of thinking I have seen.

I think you get the gist of what I am saying here. I don't really think that people despite their type are really beyond environmental factors (that is not an excuse but commentary on the idea that you will never forget where you came from and these situations indeed shape your thinking). Sure you can push through it, you can pave you own road and all that, but I think people misconstrue typology, and idealize it to an unrealistic point.

Please share your ideas, qualms and commentary.
 

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But do you see? You rose above and out of what you came from. Just because you aren't the CEO of some major company, or own your own business doesn't mean you aren't a natural leader or a driven person. Sounds like you're very ENTJ to me...I'm glad you learned from your mistakes and turned your life around :)
 

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Chatterbox, MOTM August 2013
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I have seen a lot of threads that talk about success and ENTJ types etc. My gripe is that an ENTJ from a poor background might make use of a situation that is considered to be immoral or low class in order to rise above their situation. I think people like to pretend that ENTJ's are a bunch of driven people who will just transcend any situation they are confronted with. As if there are no unhealthy ENTJ's who make the best of given situations despite moral implications.
My thoughts:

First of all, you sound a little cranky, SL. You're not still pissed about turning 30, are you? ;)

(I know you know this, and you are probably just playing devil's advocate here, but) The flaw in your argument is that it's not just someone from a poor background who might who might be the opportunist who does something immoral or low class. Boardrooms are probably filled with them. Washington certainly is. And just because you are poor doesn't mean that you will be an opportunist and cut corners to your success by doing something immoral or low class.

We have free will. It's about the choices we make. You admittedly have made some bad ones, but that doesn't define who you are, merely what you did. You made a mistake. You've obviously learned from it, and it will end up working to your advantage because, as you wrote, it's a lesson you won't forget. Your freedom is something you will never again take for granted. And, no, you'll never forget where you came from. (sorry for the sloppy syntax)

Here is the point ... No. We're not all executives. That ENTJ gang leader you speak of ... I think the point there is that he is the gang leader. Can't get much more ENTJ than that. You can be (what used to be called) a "housewife" and be an ENTJ (you're probably the best damn one the block, and you'll probably also be president of the PTA, run a volunteer program and be the Queen of your little world, but you're still an ENTJ.

We're not all the same. But, we do have things in common that define us as ENTJs. One of those things is the drive to keep moving forward. We don't take "no" for an answer if we believe something is possible. That's why so many of us DO end up at the top of the corporate ladder.

I can hear the frustration in your post, but I truly believe you'll end up at the top of whatever metaphorical mountain you end up climbing. You might wrestle with your demons, but we all do. Don't fall into the trap of being your own worst critic. Yes, you've had some hard knocks. Pick yourself up and quit dwelling on how you think others define you.

I once read a profile for ENTJs, I kid you not, it read: Tend to be the suit-and-tie type.
And I thought, well, fuck you, I'm an ENTJ and I'm wearing a dress, so there.

Don't let others define you.

Go out there and kick some ass (and just to be clear, I mean that metaphorically, not literally)... ;)
 

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Im certainly not the suit and tie type. Im more of the multiple tattoos and converse look. Though, I plan on updating it soon.


I too came from a shitty background, but like Ms Sassypants said, you rose above it, and so have I. Maybe that is the ENTJ trait.


I already got a plan devised to pay off my student loans after college while also working on a future career plan at the moment.


I want to own a small restaurant, so I guess that will make me a CEO one day....but I've never wanted to go into big business.


I think you're doing fine for yourself. Advancing that much in less that 2 years is a big deal for anybody, but especially for someone with your criminal record since the odds were stacked against you. You should be proud.
 

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My thoughts:

First of all, you sound a little cranky, SL. You're not still pissed about turning 30, are you? ;)

(I know you know this, and you are probably just playing devil's advocate here, but) The flaw in your argument is that it's not just someone from a poor background who might who might be the opportunist who does something immoral or low class. Boardrooms are probably filled with them. Washington certainly is. And just because you are poor doesn't mean that you will be an opportunist and cut corners to your success by doing something immoral or low class.

We have free will. It's about the choices we make. You admittedly have made some bad ones, but that doesn't define who you are, merely what you did. You made a mistake. You've obviously learned from it, and it will end up working to your advantage because, as you wrote, it's a lesson you won't forget. Your freedom is something you will never again take for granted. And, no, you'll never forget where you came from. (sorry for the sloppy syntax)

Here is the point ... No. We're not all executives. That ENTJ gang leader you speak of ... I think the point there is that he is the gang leader. Can't get much more ENTJ than that. You can be (what used to be called) a "housewife" and be an ENTJ (you're probably the best damn one the block, and you'll probably also be president of the PTA, run a volunteer program and be the Queen of your little world, but you're still an ENTJ.

We're not all the same. But, we do have things in common that define us as ENTJs. One of those things is the drive to keep moving forward. We don't take "no" for an answer if we believe something is possible. That's why so many of us DO end up at the top of the corporate ladder.

I can hear the frustration in your post, but I truly believe you'll end up at the top of whatever metaphorical mountain you end up climbing. You might wrestle with your demons, but we all do. Don't fall into the trap of being your own worst critic. Yes, you've had some hard knocks. Pick yourself up and quit dwelling on how you think others define you.

I once read a profile for ENTJs, I kid you not, it read: Tend to be the suit-and-tie type.
And I thought, well, fuck you, I'm an ENTJ and I'm wearing a dress, so there.

Don't let others define you.

Go out there and kick some ass (and just to be clear, I mean that metaphorically, not literally)... ;)
I like what you've said here, it makes a lot of sense. I always wonder when I will be satisfied, what will be enough. I graduated college 3 years ago as an "older" student. Since then I have done very well, but I tend to never feel like its enough fast enough. I do have the drive to be at the "top" (which has a different definition to everyone), but I'm not really sure what that even means to me. By most peoples perspective (imo) I'm already successful. Do you ever feel like this, or is it just me?
 

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Chatterbox, MOTM August 2013
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I like what you've said here, it makes a lot of sense. I always wonder when I will be satisfied, what will be enough. I graduated college 3 years ago as an "older" student. Since then I have done very well, but I tend to never feel like its enough fast enough. I do have the drive to be at the "top" (which has a different definition to everyone), but I'm not really sure what that even means to me. By most peoples perspective (imo) I'm already successful. Do you ever feel like this, or is it just me?
I think you're correct in saying that we all define "the top" differently, and @Soured Lie is correct that (paraphrasing) ... we aren't all corporate Executives with a capital "E".

Not only do we define "the top" differently, but we define: success, accomplishment, power, etc, differently as well. And not only is there a difference between one ENTJ and another, but I have found as I've gotten older (I'm a BabyBoomer) that those definitions have changed for me as I became more successful, powerful, etc.

I set small goals for myself along the way, but I also set big ones. The closer I got to the big ones, the more I would sit back and evaluate whether I wanted to move the bar even higher, or if it was "enough". When I got to the point where the next step was my boss' job (CEO, or CFO of a savings and loan), I realized that I didn't want that. So I changed the goal, left the corporate world and started my own consulting gig using my management skills. Whether that was a step up, down or a lateral is open to others' interpretations, but for me it was the right move.

It's like I was in a hurry to get where I was going ... I got there ... looked around and said, "OK, now what?". The excitement and challenge wasn't so much in being there, but in getting there. Not in the "being" but in the "doing". The focus changes, but the inate drive never goes away. I'm at the point now where again it's ... "OK...now what?" And looking to set a different goal.

Edit: BTW ... In hindsight, I made the right decision to move on. I worked for several S & L s. None of them survived the bank failures of a few years ago.
 

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I think you're correct in saying that we all define "the top" differently, and @Soured Lie is correct that (paraphrasing) ... we aren't all corporate Executives with a capital "E".

Not only do we define "the top" differently, but we define: success, accomplishment, power, etc, differently as well. And not only is there a difference between one ENTJ and another, but I have found as I've gotten older (I'm a BabyBoomer) that those definitions have changed for me as I became more successful, powerful, etc.

I set small goals for myself along the way, but I also set big ones. The closer I got to the big ones, the more I would sit back and evaluate whether I wanted to move the bar even higher, or if it was "enough". When I got to the point where the next step was my boss' job (CEO, or CFO of a savings and loan), I realized that I didn't want that. So I changed the goal, left the corporate world and started my own consulting gig using my management skills. Whether that was a step up, down or a lateral is open to others' interpretations, but for me it was the right move.

It's like I was in a hurry to get where I was going ... I got there ... looked around and said, "OK, now what?". The excitement and challenge wasn't so much in being there, but in getting there. Not in the "being" but in the "doing". The focus changes, but the inate drive never goes away. I'm at the point now where again it's ... "OK...now what?" And looking to set a different goal.

Edit: BTW ... In hindsight, I made the right decision to move on. I worked for several S & L s. None of them survived the bank failures of a few years ago.
That's interesting...when my Mom hit her first "now what?" moment in her life (at 30), that's when she turned to God and decided to let him determine her path. Do you think it's stressful always needing a goal, and maybe she decided to live the way God wants her to live in an attempt to relieve that stress?

Funny how an ENFP 7w6 is somewhat similar in this regard. I too need goals...Feeling "purpose" is important for me; I need it to feel alive. The problem is, I create so many interests for myself to keep from feeling bored, that I can't just choose one goal. If I do, I feel buyers remorse so to speak. I wonder "what if" about the other goals I need to let go of (at least temporarily). It leaves a feeling of never being satisfied in me.
 

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Chatterbox, MOTM August 2013
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That's interesting...when my Mom hit her first "now what?" moment in her life (at 30), that's when she turned to God and decided to let him determine her path. Do you think it's stressful always needing a goal, and maybe she decided to live the way God wants her to live in an attempt to relieve that stress?

Funny how an ENFP 7w6 is somewhat similar in this regard. I too need goals...Feeling "purpose" is important for me; I need it to feel alive. The problem is, I create so many interests for myself to keep from feeling bored, that I can't just choose one goal. If I do, I feel buyers remorse so to speak. I wonder "what if" about the other goals I need to let go of (at least temporarily). It leaves a feeling of never being satisfied in me.
I don't know how your mom's head works, mine works like this:
It's not stressful needing a goal, it's stressful not having one.
And, I'm not on board with the God thing.
 

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I don't know how your mom's head works, mine works like this:
It's not stressful needing a goal, it's stressful not having one.
And, I'm not on board with the God thing.
Yeah, neither am I...I just wonder how she fights a pull that seems to be part of her. Unless she views saving for retirement a big enough goal to keep her satisfied, which ties in to the OP post. Perhaps that's enough for her in her world? It's just amazing to me how different she is, yet how similar at the same time. She's sweeter and more careful with words/apologetic than I have EVER been. Yet, she's way more set in her ways than I am, and much harsher when it comes to punishment of others. I have wondered if maybe she put a lot of pressure on herself and it became difficult to cope with, so she found that living for something larger than life relieved that pressure.
 

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Yeah, neither am I...I just wonder how she fights a pull that seems to be part of her. Unless she views saving for retirement a big enough goal to keep her satisfied, which ties in to the OP post. Perhaps that's enough for her in her world? It's just amazing to me how different she is, yet how similar at the same time. She's sweeter and more careful with words/apologetic than I have EVER been. Yet, she's way more set in her ways than I am, and much harsher when it comes to punishment of others. I have wondered if maybe she put a lot of pressure on herself and it became difficult to cope with, so she found that living for something larger than life relieved that pressure.
This actually makes a lot of sense to me. Kind of the attitude "I cannot change what I can't control"? So she puts her faith and life into something that is beyond her capacity to control and that's enough? That's the only way I am ok with everything being status quo is if I know with all my heart that there's nothing I can do to change it. If that's the case it makes it much easier to accept, you don't feel like a failure. The only difference with me is I wouldn't give that kind of blind faith to an imaginary figure.
 

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This actually makes a lot of sense to me. Kind of the attitude "I cannot change what I can't control"? So she puts her faith and life into something that is beyond her capacity to control and that's enough? That's the only way I am ok with everything being status quo is if I know with all my heart that there's nothing I can do to change it. If that's the case it makes it much easier to accept, you don't feel like a failure. The only difference with me is I wouldn't give that kind of blind faith to an imaginary figure.
Yeah but to her, he is not an imaginary figure. To a lot of people he IS life, not just a part of it, and certainly not a made-up part of it. I can respect faith like that even if it's not my own personal belief.
 

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Yeah but to her, he is not an imaginary figure. To a lot of people he IS life, not just a part of it, and certainly not a made-up part of it. I can respect faith like that even if it's not my own personal belief.
I think you're missing what I was saying. I understand that to some he is life and real. My point was that she believes in God to quench her thirst for more. That believing in him (without having control) takes away the possibility of failure, because its out of her control.
 

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please, religion could easily be elaborate philosophy with metaphors referenced to the philosopher. But on another note, religion can become very very real if someone devotes themself to that life guiding system, as if creating that truth in your mind can bring forth powers from which you strongly believe exist. I believe the power of the mind dictates whether something can be actually real or not(in a soul/spiritual way), sayyyyy a miracle of Jesus to heal the blind.... far stretched? k... like Jesus helping aunt Patricia through chemotherapy because you asked him to. I could easily understand if Aunt Patricia healed or recovered faster then the religious relative expected them too, solely because they had more faith in jesus to heal her, then aunt patricia's ability to heal alone.

It's like(not to be rude) finding justification that your religious beliefs and practices had a true and utter impact on something without needing facts or reasons, much like saying "it works because it just works", or "if it works for me, it works!"
I don't think religious people(more the adamant or extremist ones) are somewhat narcissistic, just that they are so sure of their conclusion, so easy to grasp and laid out before them, that they fail to understand how other people who dont have faith find alternatives that are just as strong, (if not stronger) because these too are treated like totems and life motivators.

the bible has an end, that's why I'd much rather create a universal cacophony of never ending thoughts that process possibility vs. probability then cast it into the air, suspended there till alllllll the pieces can be mapped out and then pulled together for one final conclusion.... of course that's just my white rabbit I chase down the hole only to find myself falling forever.
 
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