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If I recalled it correctly, she said something like “God, save him in this furious moment” during the wedding.
exactly. and that is AFTER he's seen her signature and completely repudiates her. that crushes me. i don't usually buy the over-the-top altruism demanded of 'virtuous' female protagonists, but something about it is believable for me this time. it's a very common scenario, but at this point most sopranos just start reproaching the guy for unfairness, or they keep trying to plead their own case. lucia engages instantly with what it feels like to be him, and just wants him saved from the state that he's in.

it's not a counter to the dynamic of chi me frena a moment before; it's an extension of it. what does he say in chi me frena? "what restrains me? empathy. pity." he sees the state that she's in, and he can't prioritize his own feels over that.

and do you notice the chorus througout the whole opera? THEY show compassion for him as well - not merely at the end because he's just stabbed himself. just mapping the times they address him as 'sciagurato' and the times they say 'sfortunato' reveals a whole lot. and then there's her brother . . . 'she's my blood, and i've betrayed her'.

Lucia doesn’t seem like Te user.
her mad scene is very concrete and sensory. did you notice that? light the incense . . . strew the flowers . . . i heard his voice . . . shed bitter tears on my corpse. these are references to physical reality. and if you recall that 'heaven' was also a very concrete reality to most people then, then everything she says is so reality-based. "you'll be down here, and i'll be up there, and one day you'll be there too."

I would like to say that she is not a Ne user. I cannot tell much.
i think she's a rational. so determined. and such a planner. even her pleading with the count is a kind of reasoning - to say nothing of when she gets down to cases and starts outright negotiating. plus, the scene in the dungeon is almost funny. she gets
frustrated
with manrico because he can't stick to the point and get gone. and she tries to keep him from finding out that she's poisoned herself. never says goodbye. never does any gushing at him. there's nothing much in her part about feels, really. it's all pragmatism.

Have you read “The bride of Lammermoor”,
i haven't. i will read just about anything written after about 1910 but i can NOT do books that came before then. it's probably available on that site that's tried to scan copies of everything in the world that was ever in print and is now copyright free. i can't remember its name right now though.

i did look it up on wikipedia and apparently it has one of the lamest, most anticlimactic and straight-up SILLY endings i've ever heard of. i won't spoiler you though.
 

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[i personally] think rigoletto is one of the truly greats is because it does have that consistency. it's a psychological drama in a much-more-real sense. the characters don't just take up a series of different emotional poses that are each fine in themselves but come across as a little disjointed when you try to string them together as a whole.
Mine too. The father loves his daughter and wants to protect her. The tenor is a true exploiter and gives the father a reason. But all this passion screws up the details. It's the passion that is the bad guy because they don't check out the details if I recall correctly.


for the women characters in particular, it's very active and real. self-respect and self-assertion to the extent of 'NO i'm not killing myself over love' . . . that would put her on the bad side of the madonna-whore line for sure.
Not sure I understand this. Can you expand?
 

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Not sure I understand this. Can you expand?
well, you know the courtly-love mindset, right? i'm fuzzy when it comes to long-ago dates, but i'm pretty sure it was a medieval thing. it's all about love as an abstract, an absolute,and/or an ideal. it's princess-in-a-tower type stuff and the unattainable blah blah etc. people dying all over the landscape not only for it but sometimes OF it.

there are a couple of aspects to it. a huge one is the significance of fidelity. ideally women are supposed to be chaste and pure and unattainable, but on the other hand once they've blown that by letting themselves be attained (i mean emotionally cough) it's a fall from that state of original grace. it's a loss of emotional virginity. so then how do they redeem that? by absoluteness. once a girl falls in love she can't not-stay in love or that makes her a whore.

madonna/whore is the fundamental vision of female identity that dictates women can only be one or the other - more specifically, that any woman who's not a 'madonna' . . well, then by definition that makes her a whore. things have changed somewhat, of course. but there's still plenty of it around.

so building from that, you sure can't have a female character being promiscuous, right? once she's in love she's pretty much screwed. fidelity is demanded of her; it's the only way she can justify doing something so carnal as falling in love. so for your female lead to say 'welp, you dumped me/you're dead but life goes on' is promiscuous. it implies that the love can be survived. which 'means' to this kind of moral coding that it wasn't pure enough or extreme enough to justify itself in the first place. now your soprano's a cold/depraved/amoral whore . . . psychologically.

point being, anyway . . . of course real people probably lived tehir real lives with a lot more nuance and scope than that. but the 'arts' tend to capture ideals and record the zeitgeist. they do that even now; if you ask me. and, yanno. i think most of the operas that we're still listening to date from post-renaissance, but many of them still draw from the themes of an earlier time. some of them were not contemporaneous even with their own time.
 

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Mine too. The father loves his daughter and wants to protect her. The tenor is a true exploiter and gives the father a reason. But all this passion screws up the details. It's the passion that is the bad guy because they don't check out the details if I recall correctly.
see, i think rigoletto is a piece of work. and the opera infuriates and enslaves me because he's such an unresolvable paradox. verdi manages to make you bleed for someone who deserves everything that he gets . . . or would deserve it except that it's not even him who suffers. to me it really does feel like you're pinned to your seat watching an un-deflectable train wreck happen.

he already hates the duke. and until gilda is taken, he's fully complicit himself. has no problem with it until it affects him. that curse was not poorly placed - look at the role that he played in provoking it. so the hypocrisy is one of the furies for me.

what i think is the train wreck is the same thing i watch quite a few operas for: i kind of like to watch people expressing extremely relatable feelings at one another and not listening. in real life and on jerry springer it drives me insane. in operas i'm happy to sit and listen to/watch it for hours.

rigoletto allows gilda's abduction to push him over the edge. is that meant to make me feel sorry for him? he makes her rape all about him. even just from that point he brings his own fate on himself by just plain not listening - it's so clear that she's not into what he's up to, but he doesn't care. and not even focused on that, does he interrogate his own self about how ambiguous his own moral position is? no. he knew what the duke was doing to those other girls. he just didn't care unless it affected himself.

i wonder how many other tragedies across all the genres can be summed up with 'if you people would just shut up and listen'. a lot, probably.
 

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well, you know the courtly-love mindset, right? i'm fuzzy when it comes to long-ago dates, but i'm pretty sure it was a medieval thing. it's all about love as an abstract, an absolute,and/or an ideal. it's princess-in-a-tower type stuff and the unattainable blah blah etc. people dying all over the landscape not only for it but sometimes OF it.
A well expressed reply. Thank you.

I guess we can accept this for opera. This is off-topic but only a few centuries ago population was not a problem. Putting together a family and a family that would go on by inheritance was the thing. Hence fidelity to keep the family together. In modern times population and the cost of maintaining a family has changed this. Fidelity is no longer a top value. Individual female, male, and orientation rights (equality) have changed everything ... but we can dream.
 

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edit: the gutenberg project. that's what it's called. i think you can probably find scott on there.
 

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exactly. and that is AFTER he's seen her signature and completely repudiates her. that crushes me. i don't usually buy the over-the-top altruism demanded of 'virtuous' female protagonists, but something about it is believable for me this time. it's a very common scenario, but at this point most sopranos just start reproaching the guy for unfairness, or they keep trying to plead their own case. lucia engages instantly with what it feels like to be him, and just wants him saved from the state that he's in.

it's not a counter to the dynamic of chi me frena a moment before; it's an extension of it. what does he say in chi me frena? "what restrains me? empathy. pity." he sees the state that she's in, and he can't prioritize his own feels over that.

her mad scene is very concrete and sensory. did you notice that? light the incense . . . strew the flowers . . . i heard his voice . . . shed bitter tears on my corpse. these are references to physical reality. and if you recall that 'heaven' was also a very concrete reality to most people then, then everything she says is so reality-based. "you'll be down here, and i'll be up there, and one day you'll be there too."
I feel as if I have messed up all my ideas 😂.

Of course, in the mad sense she was like “Do you not hear it?” and “torches are glowing all around” Or something like that. What is it we are seeing? Se?

We don’t have many chances to listen to her when she’s happy. Lucia was tormented by the situation that was happening around herself, especially in the wedding. Edgardo did not even wonder why did Lucia sign the paper, but hesitated when he asked her to return his ring. I remember that he even slapped her and take back his ring with his own hands in the ROH 2016’s production. She still thought of him. So... Fe confirmed? But I cannot tell if it is in which place. Obviously not dominant (in my opinion) because we don’t see it in other scenes.

Dear Edgardo, why did you believe everything you see?
 

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i think she's a rational. so determined. and such a planner. even her pleading with the count is a kind of reasoning - to say nothing of when she gets down to cases and starts outright negotiating. plus, the scene in the dungeon is almost funny.
She has her own method to get what she wants, in this case, she does not want to the counts’, but wanted Manrico to be spared . So she drinks the poison. Yes, quite a thinker. However, I changed my mind about Leonora’s Fe. Her “He will have only my corpse” is quite similar to Tosca’s almost final sentence. After someone said “You will pay for this” and she said “Yes, with my own life.” Sounds like Fi, but is not used as two main functions.

she thinks forward. Always thinks what to do.

I cannot tell if she’s introvert or extrovert. Even though she goes through everything by herself and expresses her love when she thinks no one else’s there. Her “I don’t understand your words” that she said to Ines makes me feel unsure.
 

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You mean the NT? If so, I think she could be the xntj.
i did mean nt :p and i didn't want to assume about the p part, as i have a few inxp folks of my own . . . but really she does seem too single minded and directed to remind me of any of them.

i always skip that first part of act 1. the one where second-string soprano is saying 'oh main soprano you'll be so sorry' and then the main soprano goes all 'but i loooooove him'. always been the least interesting part of the whole schmear, to me. i skip it in lucia as well. i'm just not that much of a fan of soprano voices.

the fact that she said that one thing to inez doesn't really say much to me. but anyway, it doesn't shake my idea of leonora that much. they seem to be talking polemically. 'forget him'. 'how could you even SAY that! chews scenery'.

or you can look at it as a symptom of fi? to me at least, it literally doesn't make sense to tell anyone what to feel or think. you might as well tell them 'be taller' or 'don't have red hair'. it just isn't the way that stuff works, to my mind. so i could possibly see that line in that way.
 

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She has her own method to get what she wants, in this case, she does not want to the counts’, but wanted Manrico to be spared . So she drinks the poison.
lol! this could be the clincher for me. it's so very slit-eyed and burn-the-world-down familiar. i know there's a lot of self-sacrificial heroines (gilda again), but for leonora that line is a growl. she's just hell-bent on outsmarting di luna right then. and then manrico has to go bugger it up. part of the joy of trovatore to me is manrico. he's just a facepalm on legs iyam.
 

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or you can look at it as a symptom of fi?
I do view it as Leonora’s fi. I “presume” that she is an intj. Even though I personally think intjs tend to keep the “But I love him, how could you say that” -ish sentences in their mind rather then say it out.

Lucia, what a character. I only know that she could be INxx. In my opinion, the fact that she kills her husband doesn’t mean the she uses Se as her dominant or secondary function. I don’t even know why she kills him 😂. Is it because she has gone a little bit insane?

But if the Se is in her main functions, she sounds more like isfp than istp to me.
 

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i skip it in lucia as well. i'm just not that much of a fan of soprano voices.
Are you a fan of mezzo soprano voices? I actually like some trousers roles (Like Octavian from Der Rosenkavalier, A woman must act like a man who must pretend to be a woman.)
About soprano voices, I feel like soprano roles in a Fach has a stereotypical personality. For example : soubrette roles are clever and young, Lyric roles are gentle and sweet, Dramatic roles are strong and heroic.
 

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Are you a fan of mezzo soprano voices?
i don't think i've heard enough to have firm opinions. i definitely prefer azucena to leonora though. it may be i just get tense around head voices in general :p and i base that mostly on how palpable my relief is when i feel i'm in the hands of a soprano who's going to make me feel safe because she sounds herself as if she's perfectly comfortable way up there in the higher sections.

About soprano voices, I feel like soprano roles in a Fach has a stereotypical personality. For example : soubrette roles are clever and young, Lyric roles are gentle and sweet, Dramatic roles are strong and heroic.
this is probably true. .. that's more about what's written than how it sounds though.
 

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Oh oh oh oh oh oh today's met is trovatore with pavarotti zajick and sherill milnes oh swoon. I wouldn't leave home for a housefire this evening
 
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