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Usually though, even with pepper spray I feel this nefarious need to be polite--"how would you like to be sprayed with pepper spray? I've never been! It seems like an interesting new experience, doesn't it?" But then they somehow get the point.
i'm mopping coffee off my lap. THAT is passive aggression on a whole other level. and yeah; if i follow it htrough sequentially it seems equally likely to trigger 'well, here - let me take that little can off you and make your day new and interesting' from the most-wrong of the wrong kinds of guy.
 
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i'm mopping coffee off my lap. THAT is passive aggression on a whole other level. and yeah; if i follow it htrough sequentially it seems equally likely to trigger 'well, here - let me take that little can off you and make your day new and interesting' from the most-wrong of the wrong kinds of guy.
They somehow get it when you bring pepper spray into it though.

I did once get like a really angry guy from that though--he was acting like a predator and I still feel like it was a really close call, but I just asked him "do you want any pepper spray" and he got really really mad.

🤷‍♀️ You can't please everyone.

Being polite really does seem to be counterproductive for a lot of women though. It just takes that little amount of time when you're hesitating and thinking "oh maybe I'm overreacting" for someone to do something bad. But I'm talking about the really bad people, I guess.

I remember one guy--he literally jumped when I asked him if he'd like to "try out pepperspray"--somehow earlier when I had been trying to leave the room, and he'd been grabbing me and not letting me leave through the door, he wasn't able to figure out what I meant. So the pepperspray seemed to help him understand. I don't know if he knew how much his behavior bothered me, but there was a switch that went off as soon as he grabbed me. I don't like feeling trapped.

As I am more mature now, I just speak plainly as I can when a person isn't being threatening.

I don't tell people I have boyfriends, or I'm a lesbian, or that I'm 13 anymore. The 13 one--I was trying to think of whether it was me or my coworker who thought that one up. I think she was the one who claimed she was my mother and I was 13--and that worked alright. I felt kind of bad about it though because I don't like lying and it probably made the guy feel really weird and bad that he hit on a 13 year old.
 

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Being polite really does seem to be counterproductive for a lot of women though.
i don't think it's just about 'really bad' people. the whole process is usually a series of boundary tests. does she object to me doing this? how about this? how about . . . i mean, i've seen it minding my own business on a city bus [and i've bounced up and cockblocked]. the guy who sits down right next to the easiest-looking female target and actually says 'you don't mind me taking this seat, do you?' which puts her on the spot to choose between truth and 'polite' and is especially invidious because it has the answer he wants baked right into it. so the hurdle for her to jump if she wants to say no is a just a little higher.

never have i ever seen a guy push that boundary, succeed, and then stop. she says something polite, and next thing you know he's imposing a 'conversation' on her. over the course of the 'conversation' he imposes his point of view onto her and keeps the onus on her to be 'rude' at each fresh step by contradicton. and so on and so on.

that's why i favour just being direct. by the time most younger women are uncomfortable enough to gain the courage of their own discomfort, they're caught in the mixed-messages trap. and the 'no' they need to say by that point is usually so much bigger than simply 'yes, i do mind you taking this seat.'

my sister and i compared experiences a little the last time she was here. we're both late-born products of the second wave, and both of us have been fiercely bodacious for most of our grownup lives (i caught on a lot later than her). we were talking about our opinion that things have gone backwards to a really depressing degree in some ways.

she told me how she was out with a group of young (university) students in some capacity where she was sort of responsible for them, and some guy was being persistent in some public place with at least a couple of them. she said stormed back and basically ordered him to get away from them. and then she immediately apologized to the kids for just taking over without even checking with them.

waht sobered her was she said 'it wasn't even about that. they were all standing there with their mouths open looking at me. one of them said 'you mean you can do that? just tell them to leave you alone?' idk what she said back to them but it probably good.

i found that story depressing as hell. i thought we were past that.
 
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i don't think it's just about 'really bad' people. the whole process is usually a series of boundary tests. does she object to me doing this? how about this? how about . . . i mean, i've seen it minding my own business on a city bus [and i've bounced up and cockblocked]. the guy who sits down right next to the easiest-looking female target and actually says 'you don't mind me taking this seat, do you?' which puts her on the spot to choose between truth and 'polite' and is especially invidious because it has the answer he wants baked right into it. so the hurdle for her to jump if she wants to say no is a just a little higher.

never have i ever seen a guy push that boundary, succeed, and then stop. she says something polite, and next thing you know he's imposing a 'conversation' on her. over the course of the 'conversation' he imposes his point of view onto her and keeps the onus on her to be 'rude' at each fresh step by contradicton. and so on and so on.

that's why i favour just being direct. by the time most younger women are uncomfortable enough to gain the courage of their own discomfort, they're caught in the mixed-messages trap. and the 'no' they need to say by that point is usually so much bigger than simply 'yes, i do mind you taking this seat.'

my sister and i compared experiences a little the last time she was here. we're both late-born products of the second wave, and both of us have been fiercely bodacious for most of our grownup lives (i caught on a lot later than her). we were talking about our opinion that things have gone backwards to a really depressing degree in some ways.

she told me how she was out with a group of young (university) students in some capacity where she was sort of responsible for them, and some guy was being persistent in some public place with at least a couple of them. she said stormed back and basically ordered him to get away from them. and then she immediately apologized to the kids for just taking over without even checking with them.

waht sobered her was she said 'it wasn't even about that. they were all standing there with their mouths open looking at me. one of them said 'you mean you can do that? just tell them to leave you alone?' idk what she said back to them but it probably good.

i found that story depressing as hell. i thought we were past that.
Yeah--I definitely think you can tell people to go away--whether or not they listen is another thing.

Some of the examples I gave were at work (also a long time ago--I wouldn't pass for 13 now)--but I used to work at a military store and a lot of men would come in, and for some reason a lot of men would ask me out. I'm guessing that it was something about they love military stuff and maybe they assume I also did since I worked there. So it was a little bit awkward at work because it's not like I could be like "get out of the store!" unless they actually did something weird--and even then it was uncomfortable. Like one time this guy was looking at a knife from the knife case and he started talking about how he was a psychopath and that was a bit creepy. But even then I was sort of weirded out and not quite sure what to do--though one good thing about that job, when I think back on it, is they pretty much always had two women working together at the same time, which probably helped it feel more comfortable. All the employees were women.

When it comes to people on the streets--part of the problem I have had to overcome (and haven't fully) is that I absolutely can't stand it when people assume my intentions or my feelings.

So I tend to extend that to people I meet--I don't like to assume they are talking to me because they are interested in me. I talk to people in public, and like 99.9 percent of the time it has nothing to do with being attracted to them or interested in them. So I don't want to assume that men and women can only talk to each other if one of them is coming on to the other.

But other people LOVE to make assumptions like that. I don't go to bars, but one of the last times I did it was like that--I talked to someone and this other guy came up to me and was like "that guy's a really great guy...I saw you talking to him...and you should give him a chance. He's really great" And I was just thinking "fuck you--I don't fucking have to be interested in everyone I talk to." I just really dislike it when people assume things like that. I wasn't interested in the guy--he seemed like a Satanist, and while I respect people's choices, I'm not really into that. There was really no connection at all.

But then I have to do a reality check and go "oh yeah--I guess most people don't go to bars just to be friendly and talk to people." And I don't like going to bars at all now, especially since it just seems like some assumption that you are there for a hookup.

So for me it's a bit challenging, because I find it rude to make assumptions like that about people, but at the same time the reality is that people do assume things and it's also really hard to tell what a person's intentions are--we're all in the same boat that way. I just really dislike assumptions about human behavior like if I'm talking to someone I must be interested in them or attracted to them--this is just so backwards for me. Tbh, especially when I was younger, I had a really hard time talking to someone I was actually attracted to--I'm not just going to go up and start chatting with someone because I'm interested in them, unless I do some preparation beforehand or know something about them, usually. There have been a few times, and it's been fun--but it's really rare, especially in public.
 

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I'm confused. Do you want them to be aggressive? If so, that's a terrible idea.

I don't like the cultural status quo. If I ever saw a man hitting on a sister or daughter of mine, I would break every bone in his body.
If you get jealous of men who flirt with your sister or daughter and try to beat them up, you'll end up in jail for violent assault. Women are not your personal property.

I would urge you not to spoil and overprotect your daughters, as this will lead them to develop a lazy, conceited attitude in life. Women with a possessive, authoritarian father often have no sense of gratitude or personal responsibility, as they have come to expect men to provide for their every need. Do you really want an exploitative and parasitical girlfriend?

 

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I used to use that excuse when I was young--but it didn't work since it's probably pretty common.

I got "well your boyfriend doesn't have to know," and calling the bluff "why don't you invite your boyfriend to come with us, then?"

I've never mastered the "fuck off and leave me alone" thing--but it seems like it'd work better, but also could trigger an aggressive response (which isn't desirable). I mean--I guess pepper spray works the same way though. And I do think it's good to carry.

Usually though, even with pepper spray I feel this nefarious need to be polite--"how would you like to be sprayed with pepper spray? I've never been! It seems like an interesting new experience, doesn't it?" But then they somehow get the point.
You’d probably not be surprised how many times “No thanks I’m married.” has been taken as a challenge 🙄
Although I learned the fuck off and leave me alone thing, walking away, and I’m pretty well trained in self defense if needed.

As for cock blocking, 🤔

I knew this girl who was friends with my friend and whenever she went ANYWHERE she would call dibs on almost any guy there and then get pissy if they talked to anyone else other than her. It was absolutely obnoxious.
 

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You’d probably not be surprised how many times “No thanks I’m married.” has been taken as a challenge 🙄
Although I learned the fuck off and leave me alone thing, walking away, and I’m pretty well trained in self defense if needed.

As for cock blocking, 🤔

I knew this girl who was friends with my friend and whenever she went ANYWHERE she would call dibs on almost any guy there and then get pissy if they talked to anyone else other than her. It was absolutely obnoxious.
Yeah--I wouldn't be surprised. It's ridiculous. I think they know it's rude sometimes.

What kind of self-defense training would you recommend, if you were to recommend it for women?

That sounds really obnoxious and weird with that girl--as if people are property you just get to decide belong to you without them even getting a say. Seems so weird for people to approach romance that way.
 

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Yeah--I wouldn't be surprised. It's ridiculous. I think they know it's rude sometimes.

What kind of self-defense training would you recommend, if you were to recommend it for women?

That sounds really obnoxious and weird with that girl--as if people are property you just get to decide belong to you without them even getting a say. Seems so weird for people to approach romance that way.
A basic self defense class is good start. Police departments will often have classes you can sign up for. So will some martial arts centers. I took a few in college but my dad taught me a lot growing up too.
I’ve taken several different martial arts and boxing. I also have my CWP and carry mace and a taser.
 

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If you get jealous of men who flirt with your sister or daughter and try to beat them up, you'll end up in jail for violent assault. Women are not your personal property.

I would urge you not to spoil and overprotect your daughters, as this will lead them to develop a lazy, conceited attitude in life. Women with a possessive, authoritarian father often have no sense of gratitude or personal responsibility, as they have come to expect men to provide for their every need. Do you really want an exploitative and parasitical girlfriend?

I'll take the risk 10/10 times. It's not a matter of jealousy, authoritarianism or possessiveness and whatnot. It's a matter of duty. If every man took responsibility and protected the women who are related to him, you wouldn't have women making up imaginary boyfriends to ward off the unwanted advances of men.

Well, I don't lie to any of the women in my life. None of them see the world through a disney pixar lens. I tell them precisely what we as men are like and the ruthless and misleading nature of the dating game. When they meet a guy they like, they let me know and I vet the guy. If he's emotionally stable and has a legal job he passes the fitness test. He can get to know her under two conditions. He doesn't touch her and he doesn't approach her without my knowledge. My involvement stops the day he takes responsibility.

My sisters and cousins are all happily married. They've never had their hearts broken by a clueless good guy who just wasn't ready, nor have they been emotionally broken and scarred by some asshole. And they are far from lazy. They run their households better than most top CEOs run their companies. They're all highly educated and home school their children.
 

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I'll take the risk 10/10 times. It's not a matter of jealousy, authoritarianism or possessiveness and whatnot. It's a matter of duty. If every man took responsibility and protected the women who are related to him, you wouldn't have women making up imaginary boyfriends to ward off the unwanted advances of men.

Well, I don't lie to any of the women in my life. None of them see the world through a disney pixar lens. I tell them precisely what we as men are like and the ruthless and misleading nature of the dating game. When they meet a guy they like, they let me know and I vet the guy. If he's emotionally stable and has a legal job he passes the fitness test. He can get to know her under two conditions. He doesn't touch her and he doesn't approach her without my knowledge. My involvement stops the day he takes responsibility.

My sisters and cousins are all happily married. They've never had their hearts broken by a clueless good guy who just wasn't ready, nor have they been emotionally broken and scarred by some asshole. And they are far from lazy. They run their households better than most top CEOs run their companies. They're all highly educated and home school their children.
You don't seem to accept that women can make rational decisions about their own life, including who they want to share it with. Also, throwing punches at a man for flirting with your sister on the street is base thuggery, and hardly an act of heroism. That you would even consider doing so suggests a reckless disregard for the law, along with a dangerous need to coerce the women around you into a state of dependency.

I never thought I would say this on PerC, but reading your post made me think that perhaps the feminists actually have a point.
 

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You don't seem to accept that women can make rational decisions about their own life, including who they want to share it with. Also, throwing punches at a man for flirting with your sister on the street is hardly an act of heroism. That you would even consider doing so suggests a dangerous need to control others and force them into a state of dependency.

I never thought I would say this on PerC, but shit, perhaps the feminists actually have a point.
You're wrong. Young people in general don't make rational decisions about their own life. It's why they have parents and older siblings etc to guide them. I don't tell the women in my life who to love. I inform about the world and give them my protection. They involve me because they trust my guidance, not because I force it on them. I understand why you'd come to these conclusions. The current clusterfuck of a dating game is the norm for you. Anything that deviates from that has a negative connotation by default.

I don't give a shit about heroism. If you're interested, do it with respect and commitment. Only the most naive of men would even utter the bullshit you just uttered.

There's nothing wrong with feminists. The bat shit crazy bitches who claim feminism are just attempting to hijack the movement.
 

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I don't think I've ever actually seen it? I can't think of any examples. Maybe I'm oblivious?

Unless like the time my brother answered the phone and proceeded to tell my gay best friend that "I wasn't allowed to have boys call the house" counts? That wasn't a rule and he was just way too over protective.
 

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This may be an example.
 
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