[recycled_lube_oil]

I have been wondering this for a while and now I am near the end of my degree, I feel I am justified to make a few points.

Granted although, I am studying via an accredited university, it is part time and distance learning. That said, I have spent two years of my earlier years at a bricks and mortar university flunking. I have also done a foundation degree via the armed forces, in a military training establishment. So I figure I am some what OK to make my points. Also, please bear in mind, this is UK specific so things like my views on student loans, yeah, you may strongly disagree if you are American. However, our system is different.

Anyway firstly, this is specifically for Computer Science/Development. For some subjects, ie Hard Sciences, Medical and Law, well yeah there is no choice.

However, Comp Science, Programming, Development, etc. Its all available online as MOOCS and its still possible to build a portfolio.

Time: If at a bricks and mortar university, yeah being able to study full time and focus on your studies. This is a plus, in my opinion. Doing it part time, I still have to fit in work. So it would be nice to be able to spend days on some of the beefier topics and not have to make time for it. However.... if that were the case for me, I wouldn't be doing it part time, so I would still have to squeeze in more study. So maybe it evens out.

The Degree itself: Like I mentioned in my intro, a lot (if not all) of the topics studied are easily avaliable online. MOOCs and platforms such as Udemy. I completed the Helsinki Java MOOC as something to do, whilst waiting to start my module on OOP which used Java. I also did Colt Steeles Web Bootcamp between years of study. I would say that some of these actually assisted me. I have also done other things using freely available resources (yeah Udemy isn't free, I know that). Would these of been enough on their own? Maybe. As far as individual modules go, probably. However, if you are self learning, will you cover everything needed? Would I have looked into Data structures and Algorithms, Agile, Databases, etc. Probably not..... having a set syllabus helps. However, this is a personal thing. If a person is determined, they will figure it out.

As far as the degree goes, yeah some companies will chuck your CV in the bin, if you don't have a degree. There is that. Some companies claim that they do not require CV's. Also if your shit hot and have a decent portfolio, that may be enough, I don't know, I didn't choose that route, I chose the other route. But people do pull it off.

I do know however, when I finish my project and let my companies dev department know. They are not going to care about my dissertation. It will be the project itself. Self learning, not having to bother with dissertation and some reports, spending time on projects building a portfolio, may be better, I don't know.

The Cost: OK, I have to pay back a student loan. I view it more as a graduate tax. Its pittance of my pay. Some people say education should be free. But why should people who don't use universities have to pay tax to pay for my degree? I use it, so I pay for it. Obviously, I know in the states, you guys have a rough deal however. This is based on Student Finance England. Pointless degree's or hobby degree's, I disagree with the taxpayer paying for. Maybe if certain degree's that lead to work, sure maybe I could agree to them being funded by the taxpayer. However I still think a graduate tax is fairer. You use it, you pay for it.

Academia Skills: Since starting this degree, I cannot deny my report writing at work has improved and it has benefitted my career. So looking at sources, making arguments, although it seems pointless and stupid, it does pay off. Granted a lot of jobs really may not care about your academia skills. I also know firms that refuse to employ graduates, due to the way academia turns them into clowns. Yes I know you have a masters degree, however you are still the same as everyone else doing the same job. Your masters degree does not make you superior. Oh look, you fell into someone's fist on a works drinking event, maybe you should humble yourself.

Politics: I despise the way a lot of the modules are turned political. I think there should be no bias. I can go on Kaggle and find more challenging problems that my Data Management final assignment and they can leave politics out of it People goto Uni to be educated, not be brain washed into your political views. This actually disgusts me. I will be mentioning this, on my module reviews once I have my degree.

Future in Research: This is one area, I would say University is vital. If you want a career in research, yeah getting a degree, is probably vital. Degree, Masters, then PHd, University is probably the only way if you want to spend your life in Academia. So yeah if this is what you want to do, then all my points are moot.

Bootcamps: Coding bootcamps are a thing these days. Do they work or not, I honestly have no idea. I would imagine there are some legit ones, but like any business, probably plenty of not so good ones. Probably best to do your due diligence before hand. I honestly do not feel qualified to give any other opinion. All I know is, they ain't cheap.

Not sure what other points to cover.

What am I doing after university: Well I was considering a Masters Degree. But now I am on my final year plus the fact I know someone who is doing a masters (in fairness, it has helped her career massively), I have come to the decision it is not for me. There is enough stuff I want to learn, but there are enough MOOCs, plus I can build a portfolio. I feel focussing more on learning the actual trade in industry, would be more beneficial for me to focus on than further academia. Obviously I still want to learn and play with other stuff from a hobbyist angle. But I would rather invest time into learning industry stuff to a higher standard first. Udemy will be a help in this as I already know, there are loads of things I know nothing about.

 

[SouDesuNyan]

I got a bachelor and master degree in CS, but I'm American. I wasted around $15k and 1.5 years on a master degree because it wasn't needed. Only a bachelor degree is needed for programming jobs even for big tech companies. I ended up with about $25k of student loans, and it took me a year to pay it off.

Some of my friends had electrical engineering or computer engineering degrees, and they ended up getting programming jobs anyway, so might as well go for CS, at least I can use what I learned.

The CS degree is worth it for me. I've worked a little over 15 years now, and I already saved enough to retire if I want. Most of the jobs I've had have good work-life balance. It might be a different experience for countries outside of the US. Also, note that I graduated from one of the top ten CS universities in the country. Not sure what it's like for graduates of one of the lower tier universities. It's probably still okay because the demand for programming jobs is so high.

 

[HAL]

In the UK, computer science barely prepares you for programming and most companies care little for that bit of paper saying you passed a course in the science of computing.

It probably helps you get into some top companies (mostly in London), but even then, the selection process is dumb (and - rant incoming - I have a HUGE chip on my should about this. Can you do leetcode? Do you know anything about that? Well you shouldn't, because it means nothing to everyday programming for 99.999% of people. But, sorry, if you want to work in one of these companies, you need to pass the inevitable 'leetcode' part of the assessment.)

Outside of the 'big tech' bubble (FAANG, quant banking, other random popular tech services like Stripe, Spotify, etc) it's a much different scene. There is a vast plethora of random ass companies who need devs to make their systems work, in pretty much every industry. Salaries are about 70% or what the top companies pay, but that still means it's a very good salary. For these companies it's somewhat similar as far as CS degrees are concerned. They generally care more about what you can do, with evidence to prove it, so it's still not that easy for juniors. But most importantly, there's not that much weighting given to those with a CS degree

That being said, I suppose it's probably true that a junior/grad role is more likely to be offered to someone with a CS degree, if that's the one and only separating factor between two candidates. But anyone who thinks the degree means anything to the work being done is delusional.

I do know however, when I finish my project and let my companies dev department know. They are not going to care about my dissertation. It will be the project itself. Self learning, not having to bother with dissertation and some reports, spending time on projects building a portfolio, may be better, I don't know.

I think this is exactly correct, but it isn't a failing of CS education, it's a failing of British culture and governance overall (and other countries too, I suspect). We've been told we all need to get a degree, and of course universities loved this and went with it, but they have always been focused on education and research, NOT employability or productivity. So we now have generation after generation of people who went to uni thinking they would gain useful skills, but came out as unemployable as they were before. Educated but unskilled.

Politics: I despise the way a lot of the modules are turned political.

What was political about your CS modules?

I studied physics (so, also STEM) and there wasn't a lick of politics in any of my course. It was literally just grinding through rock hard physics, leave your personality at the door because we don't have time for that. That was at Leeds uni.

 

[ENTJudgement]

The company I’m in requires a bachelors degree for my job so yeah, it was worth it.

 

[Tanisa]

The company I’m in requires a bachelors degree for my job so yeah, it was worth it.

you know, somehow I found you in almost every post I click on haha
and being a fellow ENTJ and now studying CS in college, I'm glad to hear your confirmation. So I didn't choose wrong after all. I was a little unsure before, what with women being minority in CS major and all.

 

[ENTJudgement]

you know, somehow I found you in almost every post I click on haha
and being a fellow ENTJ and now studying CS in college, I'm glad to hear your confirmation. So I didn't choose wrong after all. I was a little unsure before, what with women being minority in CS major and all.

Lmao yep, I usually do work while having the chat up on other screen xD my company is specifically hiring more women as apart of their encouraging women in STEM so if u were in NZ, would pretty much be Guaranteed a job after graduating.

In terms of a well paid career path, you definitely didn’t pick wrong

 

[recycled_lube_oil]

What was political about your CS modules?

I studied physics (so, also STEM) and there wasn't a lick of politics in any of my course. It was literally just grinding through rock hard physics, leave your personality at the door because we don't have time for that. That was at Leeds uni.

My first year before I switched, I was doing actual Science and it was more about the Scientific Theory and the topic being studied.

Yet several of my CS modules, for case studies and examples they always try to make it political. For my final assignment in Data Engineering, where I have to create a data pipeline and apply a basic ML algorithm, the whole premise of the datasets and the data investigation I have to do, yet again has a leftie bias.

It would be nice to be able to do these modules without the mandatory pages of Government bashing.

It is quite subtle but it is there.

And yes, I know what Leetcode is. I had someone on Reddit, tell me that instead of doing a degree, I should spend 4 years just doing Leetcode all day every day.

I spoke to one of the devs at my place about it and they just laughed saying it only matters if I want to work at Facebook or Twitter.

I had to go to Leeds University at weekends for a few of my Tutorials with The Open University. Now since Covid, they have just abolished them altogether. Sure there are online tutorials, but they are not really the same.

 

[HAL]

I spoke to one of the devs at my place about it and they just laughed saying it only matters if I want to work at Facebook or Twitter.

Yep, exactly this. I laugh too. I hate the Reddit culture around leetcode. In my professional experience I don't think I've ever heard it mentioned, as a professional or hobby thing. I really truly hate the Reddit culture around leetcode. I think it's more of an American thing, thankfully.

the whole premise of the datasets and the data investigation I have to do, yet again has a leftie bias.

It would be nice to be able to do these modules without the mandatory pages of Government bashing.

You still haven't said what about it was biased. What was the topic, or the task?

 

[recycled_lube_oil]

Yep, exactly this. I laugh too. I hate the Reddit culture around leetcode. In my professional experience I don't think I've ever heard it mentioned, as a professional or hobby thing. I really truly hate the Reddit culture around leetcode. I think it's more of an American thing, thankfully.



You still haven't said what about it was biased. What was the topic, or the task?

The topic, this module in particular seems to love it. Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with some of it. But page long rants on why this government used an Excel spreadsheet for Covid and failed the people, blah, blah, blah, in my eyes isn't needed in the module, it adds no value (I do agree, but just think government bashing should not be part of education).

When I did the Science Module, there an assignment around genetics and DNA. It was quite challenging actually but interesting. Once I switched degree's, DNA yet again came up in Data Structures and Algorithms. Instead of explaining more about DNA and Genetics, most of the intro to the problem was bashing the government and ranting about the NHS.

Its just stuff like this popping up, that serves no purpose in the modules themselves, in my opinion.

 

[HAL]

The topic, this module in particular seems to love it. Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with some of it. But page long rants on why this government used an Excel spreadsheet for Covid and failed the people, blah, blah, blah, in my eyes isn't needed in the module, it adds no value (I do agree, but just think government bashing should not be part of education).

Yeah, generally agree with this. It feels like the Americanisation of politics, to have people politicising the classroom so overtly. (I say that as someone who HATES the Tory government also). Perhaps your lecturer was directly affected by the corrupt, abysmal handling during parts of the lockdown pandemic. My mother was a staunch Tory all her life until the care home she managed ended up as a front-line location for covid outpatients. Government actions can make people quite bitter!

Also, some things are unavoidably political. Ask yourself why we learn the specifically selected topics of our high school history curriculum, or high school English literature material. I daresay it's easy for data science to lean into politics too, because a lot of it covers data sets based on society itself.

I'm not sure what the big deal is with DNA related topics though. It's a really interesting crossover between computing and biology.

 

[recycled_lube_oil]

Yeah, generally agree with this. It feels like the Americanisation of politics, to have people politicising the classroom so overtly. (I say that as someone who HATES the Tory government also). Perhaps your lecturer was directly affected by the corrupt, abysmal handling during parts of the lockdown pandemic. My mother was a staunch Tory all her life until the care home she managed ended up as a front-line location for covid outpatients. Government actions can make people quite bitter!

It wasn't so much the lecturer, they actually never bring this stuff up. Its the course material published by the Open University themselves.

Like I say, some of it I don't disagree with. I could just do without.

Also, some things are unavoidably political. Ask yourself why we learn the specifically selected topics of our high school history curriculum, or high school English literature material. I daresay it's easy for data science to lean into politics too, because a lot of it covers data sets based on society itself.

I didn't touch history after year 9. My main memories were studying the Romans and WW2. English Lit was Romeo and Juliet and the good le Of Mice and Men.

I'm not sure what the big deal is with DNA related topics though. It's a really interesting crossover between computing and biology.

I quite enjoyed coding an algorithm that went a DNA sequence and counted the bases, looked for patterns, etc. I'm guessing its an easy example for an application of an algorithm.

 

[recycled_lube_oil]

@HAL , regarding my final project. Having access to several developers for assistance and guidance, not to mention a SCRUM master, for guidance, has made me look at my final project differently to how I would without these resources.

Obviously, in the resources part of my assessment, I can not actually mention these resources. But as far as the agile methodology goes and the planning part of my assignment, I would say, I am more equipped than what is actually taught about these methodologies, and creating test plans, user stories, UI design, code sprints, etc.

 

[HAL]

I didn't touch history after year 9. My main memories were studying the Romans and WW2. English Lit was Romeo and Juliet and the good le Of Mice and Men.

The interesting thing about history lessons is that it teaches us the best parts of our history and none of the worst parts. This is surely typical of any country, and I don't mean it as a complaint - it simply highlights the political nature of some lessons.

English lit had a major section analysing a poem called Search for my Tongue, which is about a woman who moved from India to the UK and always feared that she was losing her sense of Indian identity. This must have been about 2004, I don't know if it's still in the curriculum.

I can not actually mention these resources. But as far as the agile methodology goes and the planning part of my assignment, I would say, I am more equipped than what is actually taught about these methodologies, and creating test plans, user stories, UI design, code sprints, etc.

Sounds like you're in a really advantageous position for starting your dev career, very lucky! The CS course is probably pointless overall, but having a degree seems to be a prerequisite for life now 🤷‍♂️. It certainly opened doors for me.

 

[recycled_lube_oil]

The interesting thing about history lessons is that it teaches us the best parts of our history and none of the worst parts. This is surely typical of any country, and I don't mean it as a complaint - it simply highlights the political nature of some lessons.

English lit had a major section analysing a poem called Search for my Tongue, which is about a woman who moved from India to the UK and always feared that she was losing her sense of Indian identity. This must have been about 2004, I don't know if it's still in the curriculum.



Sounds like you're in a really advantageous position for starting your dev career, very lucky! The CS course is probably pointless overall, but having a degree seems to be a prerequisite for life now 🤷‍♂️. It certainly opened doors for me.

When I left my old firm, I purposefully looked for companies with internal dev teams during my job hunt. I'm just happy that as well as being in my final year of study, all the other pieces are fitting together nicely.

Long term, I know which firm I want to work at next. But that is 2 - 3 year plan and a future me challenge. I need to deal with the current phase of my plan for now.

But as far as my original post goes, I know a masters won't help me as much as self learning specific tech.

Then even further long term, I know which firm I want contracter positions at. But that is very long term planning.

Do wish I had focused more on this when younger rather than beer and women though. I wouldn't need to put myself through this.

 

[HAL]

Do wish I had focused more on this when younger rather than beer and women though

lol, I don't.

20s was spent getting wasted and travelling.

30s, it began.

 

[SgtPepper]

I’ll keep it short.

If it’s about getting a job, get your certification and learn those well. Start with A+ certification. Get as many relevant certifications as possible.

If it’s for you and the cool experience, do the college route. University is really fucking cool and you’ll probably meet people there/experience perspectives you’ll never see again elsewhere.

 

[SouDesuNyan]

Do wish I had focused more on this when younger rather than beer and women though. I wouldn't need to put myself through this.

lol, I don't.

20s was spent getting wasted and travelling.

30s, it began.

I spent a lot of money traveling in my 20s. I think the experience was worth it, although now I realize that it wasn't financially wise. Instead of multiple international trips (and numerous domestic trips) a year, I should have spaced it out, and take one international trip every two years and do more road trips instead. That's also the period when I had a girlfriend, so I spent too much dining out, going to shows/concerts, etc.

But, back to the main subject.. I think the point of a 4-year degree is to build your foundation than learning specific technologies. For computer science, it's about understand different algorithms, types of programming languages, programming paradigms, systems, networking, databases, and doing team projects to prepare you for the workplace. Algorithms and the theoretical side is important, because you cannot go far in programming only learning the technical stuff. It needs to be a balance of the abstract and the technical. College is more focused on the abstract, but I think it makes sense because you'll be focused on the technical once you start working as a dev. I've seen people with weak foundations in the abstract, so they might not realize how bad a n^2 algorithm is when compared to a n*logn algorithm for extremely large set of data. Or, even the opposite problem, where they prematurely optimize things which increase complexity but the performance gain is negligible.

 

[HAL]

I spent a lot of money traveling in my 20s. I think the experience was worth it, although now I realize that it wasn't financially wise. Instead of multiple international trips (and numerous domestic trips) a year, I should have spaced it out, and take one international trip every two years and do more road trips instead. That's also the period when I had a girlfriend, so I spent too much dining out, going to shows/concerts, etc.

But, back to the main subject.. I think the point of a 4-year degree is to build your foundation than learning specific technologies. For computer science, it's about understand different algorithms, types of programming languages, programming paradigms, systems, networking, databases, and doing team projects to prepare you for the workplace. Algorithms and the theoretical side is important, because you cannot go far in programming only learning the technical stuff. It needs to be a balance of the abstract and the technical. College is more focused on the abstract, but I think it makes sense because you'll be focused on the technical once you start working as a dev. I've seen people with weak foundations in the abstract, so they might not realize how bad a n^2 algorithm is when compared to a n*logn algorithm for extremely large set of data. Or, even the opposite problem, where they prematurely optimize things which increase complexity but the performance gain is negligible.

I spent basically everything in my life on travelling etc in my 20s, hell you know I'm in Vietnam now and it wasn't exactly the most astute financial decision. My imminent return to the UK will hopefully be the permanent end of my flighty ways. Looking forward to a more docile mode of living and, as you say, just going for a big trip every couple of years.

I agree about your points on CS but only in a theoretical sense. I think it would be possible for a dev to forge a perfectly acceptable career without needing to apply any real CS concepts at all. I finished a DS&A course a few weeks ago and am pretty sure I'll never need to know those concepts in my line of work, unless I deliberately want to be a smarty pants and write some bespoke code that a standard library could probably do for me already.

 

[SouDesuNyan]

I spent basically everything in my life on travelling etc in my 20s, hell you know I'm in Vietnam now and it wasn't exactly the most astute financial decision. My imminent return to the UK will hopefully be the permanent end of my flighty ways. Looking forward to a more docile mode of living and, as you say, just going for a big trip every couple of years.

I agree about your points on CS but only in a theoretical sense. I think it would be possible for a dev to forge a perfectly acceptable career without needing to apply any real CS concepts at all. I finished a DS&A course a few weeks ago and am pretty sure I'll never need to know those concepts in my line of work, unless I deliberately want to be a smarty pants and write some bespoke code that a standard library could probably do for me already.

I think it's very important to understand data structures and algorithms when you're dealing with large amount of data (mostly from big corporations). I wouldn't consider it being a smarty pants because it should be part of the basic knowledge of a software engineer. I do agree on using standard library and not reinvent the wheel, but still, it's good to know how certain data structures, like hash maps and tree sets, are implemented, and the performance of their operations.

 

[ENTJudgement]

lol, I don't.

20s was spent getting wasted and travelling.

30s, it began.

Me doing the reverse, wasted my 20s working and accumulating resources and investing, my 30s probably spent realising those investments to reinvest again and my 40s will be when I go travelling the world. Same outcome, different order as u guys xD