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I’ve had guys get butt hurt with me about being “friend zoned”.
I mean I’m married and always very very clear about not being interested, where the fuck else do they think they’re gonna go?
I don’t encourage, seek out or send mixed signals.
Some people just need a clue by four to the face.
 

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I don't have the energy to point out all the fallacies and errors in this post so I'll leave you with one thought. Dunning Kruger strikes again.
So you bail by throwing out yet another catch-phrase that you don't fully understand the definition of. Why? Probably because you're trapped in an academic echo-chamber that rarely challenges you, and you therefore lack the necessary maturity and philosophical knowledge to participate further in this discussion.
 

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Time and time again, I want to be friend zoned, as in 'I beg of you, friendzone me'. 😂
So... You want to be someone else's full-time emotional and/or financial supporter, which is the proper role of a mate, without the intimacy benefits of actually being their mate? This is how social parasites take over the lives of their victims for their own benefit.

How you can confuse that with being a normal friend, with healthy boundaries, and accepting that your friend does not share your romantic interest, shows a lack of discernment that's hard to believe.

Note that I'm only writing this for the benefit of others, as I've deemed you to be a lost cause.
 

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I’ve had guys get butt hurt with me about being “friend zoned”.
I mean I’m married and always very very clear about not being interested, where the fuck else do they think they’re gonna go?
I don’t encourage, seek out or send mixed signals.
Some people just need a clue by four to the face.
If you're not encouraging them, or sending mixed signals, then you are not "friend-zoning" them.
 

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I’ve had guys get butt hurt with me about being “friend zoned”.
I mean I’m married and always very very clear about not being interested, where the fuck else do they think they’re gonna go?
I don’t encourage, seek out or send mixed signals.
Some people just need a clue by four to the face.
As a cis-male, I have broken a few hearts by having friends of the opposite gender while being in a relationship. Since one particularly bad experience with a jealous "friend," I decided not have friends of the opposite gender.
 

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Sigh... Here's some clues for the clueless...

1) Women will decide, within seconds of meeting you, whether they are interested in you. It has almost nothing to do with your looks. Women respond to confidence and wit.
2) Women do not talk (outside of work) to men who do not interest them. Period. If they are talking to you, they are interested. So get to know them a bit and see if YOU are interested.
3) Any woman you know who, seeing you across a room, comes up to talk to you is potential dating material. Especially if they play with their hair, earrings, etc. as they talk. Learn the flirt signs.
4) To seduce... Be friendly, tease them a little, make them laugh, and be a bit unpredictable at all times. You will be surprised how quickly and eagerly women will respond to this.
5) The real keepers will tease you right back. Because this shows that they have confidence in themselves.
6) To repel a woman you don't like, be really nice and non-threatening (uninteresting). They will almost immediately vanish.
Confidence alone don't mean shit mate, a 1/10 guy with 10/10 confidence doesn't pass the first stage which is the looks stage so his confidence is useless.
A 8/10 guy with 0/10 confidence will drop significantly in rating due to his lack of confidence.

So confidence is something that is expected of u but it's not the 1 thing women look for in a guy so it can't fully carry you either.
 

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Confidence alone don't mean shit mate, a 1/10 guy with 10/10 confidence doesn't pass the first stage which is the looks stage so his confidence is useless.
A 8/10 guy with 0/10 confidence will drop significantly in rating due to his lack of confidence.

So confidence is something that is expected of u but it's not the 1 thing women look for in a guy so it can't fully carry you either.
While I agree with you that confidence isn't as important as other factors, you're also inflating the looks aspect too. There are plenty of women who've fallen for a guy's personality where looks took a back seat, within reason of course.

One autistic way of perceiving dating is that every trait is on a sliding scale of 10. If the total score of all traits equals the magic number of attraction, then bob's your uncle. And of course, reliant on individual preferences, some trait scales will have more weight than others. In your case and in many other cases, looks factor heavily into your total.
 

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While I agree with you that confidence isn't as important as other factors, you're also inflating the looks aspect too. There are plenty of women who've fallen for a guy's personality where looks took a back seat, within reason of course.

One autistic way of perceiving dating is that every trait is on a sliding scale of 10. If the total score of all traits equals the magic number of attraction, then bob's your uncle. And of course, reliant on individual preferences, some trait scales will have more weight than others. In your case and in many other cases, looks factor heavily into your total.
Math is the language of the universe.
 

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Quite an interesting read.
If you're a man who has good hygiene and a half way decent job, you should have no problems getting dates. Even if you think you're ugly, women barely care about looks. The primary blocker for most men is that they don't understand attraction markers, or how to seduce (in an honest, forthright way) a woman who has shown interest in them. There's also the problem of our culture being hostile to the normal, healthy ways that men and women interact. So unless you've learned how to actually treat a woman (be playfully teasing/interesting, make them laugh) instead of the propaganda (be nice, non-threatening, and therefore boring) you're going to be extremely frustrated.
True, over the years, we had different definition of that the ideal woman and ideal man are supposed to be like. From the gentleman of the 1950s to the party animal of the 1980s and the bad boy of the 2020s. But I don't think the "bad boy" is really a bad boy, just defiant. As you said, knowing how to treat a woman be playfully teasing/interesting, make them laugh; can come across as disrespectful to people who are focused on be nice, non-threatening, and therefore boring because you push some boundaries in it.

If a man was a real "bad boy" in the real sense of the word "bad", as in treating women and other people with disrespect, I assume he wouldn't get many dates. Yes, there are cases of women being with abusive men, literally bad boys, but that's far from the norm. There's also the "bad boy" in the sense of dangerous and risky behavior. Knowing how to ride a bike or how to fight certainly makes you more attractive for that dangerous and risky factor, but that doesn't necessarly equal with being bad, as in treating others badly. So, "bad boy", not really, just defiant.

Not only women, but people in general, men too, like to have emotional spikes. To feel either extremely positive or extremely negative for a short duration of time. It's right there in your definition, extremely negative: playfully teasing; extremely positive: interesting, make them laugh.

You can't be all like a deflated balloon, all agreeing with her, you can't just be there and be nice and expect girls will like you. You got to push some boundaries, but in a respectful way.

The issue with be nice, non-threatening, and therefore boring is not that there is a problem with being nice. It's that everyone is nice with the person they like. You're not special. You're literally doing what absolutely everyone else is doing expecting different results. Yes, it's a perk to be nice, it's better to be nice than not to be nice, to be attentive and helpful towards her, even romantic and tender, but, and this is a big but, you also have to have other things going on for you in order to make yourself attractive and make her fall in love with you.

You got to feel the person, to establish an emotional connection, you got to understand and be aware of the emotions of other people. And based on their reactions adjust or change your behavior. It's all about those emotional spikes.

You can be a bit insistent in teasing as long as the insisting is playful and the other person also laughs. Make jokes about having an proper/improper, normal/abnormal or moral/immoral behavior.

However, teasing has to be non-hurtful. You can be offensive yet respectful. The purpose is to entertain the other person and make them laugh, not make them feel bad. There is a slight superiority in teasing. Or implication of lack of importance for them.

You can make fun of them in an indirect way by waiting for them to make a mistake. Don't say anything, just let them make a mistake, waiting for them to make the mistake, and then laugh at it. Again, all of this is in a playful way, I don't mean a mistake that has consequences.

On the other side of the coin, you could jokingly praise yourself on non-important stuff. It's not bragging because (a) you're not saying "look how great I am" but are rather indirect and jokingly "that's what it means to be a boss" and (b) it's not about something important, it's not about something that says "I'm superior to others".

You can make scare jokes, or show defiance in little but respectful ways, and if they show insistance to your defiance, show more defiance, of course I mean all of this in a playful respectful way, not when it comes to serious things.

You could also mix doing little things for them with not doing things for them and challenging them to be the ones that go and do those little things. Notice that I said little, because it's all in a playful atmosphere, I don't mean "no, I'm not going to pick you up with my car from the train station", but rather "nah, I won't turn off the light because I'm too far, you go ahead and do it".

The point of these defiances is that they make the interaction a little bit spicy, it's a lot better than having someone who always agrees with you and always does what he is asked of.

The "not always does what he is asked of" was discussed above with a mix of doing and not doing little things, show defiance, jokingly praise yourself on non-important stuff, make fun of them in an indirect way by waiting for them to make a mistake, make jokes about having an proper/improper, normal/abnormal or moral/immoral behavior, push some boundaries but in a respectful way. None of these are for real, in a serious situation with consequences don't do any of these, but they are just jokes for the moment in a casual way that keeps the conversation and interaction spicy.

So it's not really "bad boy", more like defiance and simulating bad.
Sigh... Here's some clues for the clueless...

1) Women will decide, within seconds of meeting you, whether they are interested in you. It has almost nothing to do with your looks. Women respond to confidence and wit.
2) Women do not talk (outside of work) to men who do not interest them. Period. If they are talking to you, they are interested. So get to know them a bit and see if YOU are interested.
3) Any woman you know who, seeing you across a room, comes up to talk to you is potential dating material. Especially if they play with their hair, earrings, etc. as they talk. Learn the flirt signs.
4) To seduce... Be friendly, tease them a little, make them laugh, and be a bit unpredictable at all times. You will be surprised how quickly and eagerly women will respond to this.
5) The real keepers will tease you right back. Because this shows that they have confidence in themselves.
6) To repel a woman you don't like, be really nice and non-threatening (uninteresting). They will almost immediately vanish.
Good advice. But for this part:
4) To seduce... Be friendly, tease them a little, make them laugh, and be a bit unpredictable at all times. You will be surprised how quickly and eagerly women will respond to this.
5) The real keepers will tease you right back. Because this shows that they have confidence in themselves.
6) To repel a woman you don't like, be really nice and non-threatening (uninteresting). They will almost immediately vanish.
Are you sure that it only applies to you, or it's a general thing in all women?
NO!

Simps get friend-zoned. Which means she'll rely on you for the emotional (and often financial) support she's not getting from the man (or men) she actually sleeps with. If you find yourself in the zone, just walk away. Because that relationship is never going to be healthy, or lead to romance. Just heartbreak. If she were actually into you, there would be no other man because she would not even be able to imagine being with anyone but you.

I speak from experience, because I've been on both sides of the zone. Yes, women can get friend-zoned too, and it's worse because they mutilate themselves trying to figure out what part of their body isn't sexually attracting you. Based on some random thing you said months ago. Don't do that to someone, or let them do it to you!

Walk. Away.
I see that I used the term "simp" the wrong way. I meant simping in the strict sense of being caring, attentive and helpful. Sort of being a gentleman. But not ending up doing destructive things where you get the short end of the stick. Helping her when you have nothing to lose, not helping her when you sacrifice a big part of yourself or your time to help her. You can decline politely or say you don't have time. Simping within reason, so to speak. As well as, and especially, as long as you also make a move towards her.

Don't just be a simp, make a move towards her. That's the key difference, lack of directness, as opposed to the simping as in caring itself. And honestly, if you've been talking to a woman for 3 months and you never gave her any signs that you are romantically interested in her or actually asked her out for a date, can you really blame her for putting you in the friendzone? She didn't know otherwise. You never communicated otherwise. She didn't put you in the friendzone, you put yourself in the friendzone.

There is one way out of the friendzone: tell her how you feel or ask her out for a date, and a romantic one, make it clear it's romantic. If she refuses you, fine, go out. No friendship. Being in the friendzone is a choice, not a prison.

I remember this video from long ago:

Get good flirty, indirect hitting on. Such as the act of randomly going and talking to her, asking her about herself. There is always an "I want to date you" in the back of your head when you get good flirty. It's not just normal conversation.

Of course, don't be weird, doing things way too out of the ordinary, with no explaination. That's what it means to be weird.

Simping in the most general sense is the idea that one may impress the other person with how caring is he towards her. It doesn't work that way. People want something fun, want something attractive, want something they enjoy with. Which later could be developed into care. They already have their family and friends to care for them. Simping is the belief that one may impress the other person with the depth of their feelings and make the other person believe they are a good catch because 'he loves me a lot'. But maybe, "he only loves me a lot because he can't have me" and "if I have 2 competitors, then I already have 2 people who 'love me a lot' ".

It's like PR and marketing, most products don't convince to you buy them with a "please buy them, I'll be very nice to you" but rather "look at me, I'm such a quality product, I have so much value flashy ad etc".

So what I was saying is that being caring, attentive and helpful could work, given that, you know, also one makes a move and is being flirty, otherwise it's just friendzone.
I've also had a lot of luck with looking them in the eyes and really listening to what they have to say. Just about everyone wants to feel they are being heard, even if they are not fully understood. I've found women pleasantly surprised to have me recall something they told me months/years before that I took seriously enough to remember because I knew it was important to them.
Yes, that can be very affective.
What is the difference between being friend zoned and just being friends with someone?

Is it because at one point there was at least a one-sided attraction with the friendzoning, or some kind of romantic expectation?

I've never understood why people complain about friend zoning so much--it just sounds like being friends with someone. I've been on both sides of friend zoning and it doesn't bother me at all. I think that it's probably the best foundation for any relationship, but if a person is a good enough friend then the friendship can stand alone without romance, and the person should/does respect that their friend is ready for a healthy relationship. Because why wouldn't you want your friend to be happy? If they are a true friend you care about them, you are not just attracted to them.

Women might be confused by the social expectation that says "all men want to sleep with women" and think there's something wrong with them if a man rejects them, but it's stupid--just as it's stupid to depict something like friendship as negative, just because it doesn't have a romantic element. (Also I am not calling anyone stupid--I am saying the idea is stupid because it is harmful, and I don't like ideas that harm people.)

That being said, there are times when it's just better not to continue a friendship or see someone a lot--could be for any reason at all. So it's important to be able to accept when friendship just doesn't work for any reason, even if it's because of unresolved romantic feelings. I think.
You can start as mutual friends and develop into a relationship. In fact, I think that's pretty much how it all went for me, I've never done "cold dating" in my life, except when I was the one approached.

But friendzone, already implies that 1 of them is not interested.

People complain about it, because you can't be friend with someone you are romantically attracted to, it's not good for you. If there was no feelings, really cool. If there was mutual feelings, really cool. If there are one-sided friendship vs romance feelings, really bad.

As a man, I can guarantee that not all men want to sleep with women. Yes, some men want to sleep with any woman they find, clearly. Any woman they put hands on is good enough. But others don't. Women would probably be the same if it weren't for the bad social stigma "you're a hoe" for doing it. For men, sleeping with as many women as possible is something to brag about, for women, sleeping with as many men as possible is something to be ashamed about.
Confidence alone don't mean shit mate, a 1/10 guy with 10/10 confidence doesn't pass the first stage which is the looks stage so his confidence is useless.
A 8/10 guy with 0/10 confidence will drop significantly in rating due to his lack of confidence.

So confidence is something that is expected of u but it's not the 1 thing women look for in a guy so it can't fully carry you either.
True. And in fact, this applies to everything in life. "Just be confidence", "just believe in yourself", "think positively!" is just dumb advice.

Yes, being confidence helps when you also have the skills behind it to support it. And positive thinking has some merits at times, allowing you to have a good vibes attitude or expect good things from others.

As we tend to people treat others consistent with our expectations, and therefore, cause the person to behave in a way that confirms such expectations. Like, if you think someone is an asshole, you'll act toward him or her in a way that will produce “asshole” behavior. On the other hand, if you think someone is an friendly towards you, you'll act toward him or her in a way that will produce “friendly” behavior because of your ingratiating actions.

An entrepreneur once said "if you don't understand people, you don't understand business" and he's right, people are a major factor in, well everything. But some people take the short approach and say a naive "just be confident", "just believe in yourself" or "just be yourself". Just be confident? No. You can't feel confident if you don't know what you're doing. It's easy to say "No pressure, chill." when you from your perspective would know how to handle the situation, but other people wouldn't. A pilot is confident in how to drive a plane because he spent a whole school there. If you don't feel like you know what you're doing, just go and find some advice to take, try to understand how it works, the "just be confident" doesn't work. That's not to say experience doesn't work, experience is good, but you need a mix of both.
 

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One autistic way of perceiving dating is that every trait is on a sliding scale of 10. If the total score of all traits equals the magic number of attraction, then bob's your uncle. And of course, reliant on individual preferences, some trait scales will have more weight than others. In your case and in many other cases, looks factor heavily into your total.
To add to my prior post since it needs emphasis, because it's so rarely discussed, the dimension of consistency vs novelty is very important. Again, a slider would work since people will vary in their needs. It's even more complex than a simple slider would evidence since one can need a lot of emotional consistency but require a lot of topical novelty where others thrive on emotional inconsistency/novelty, preferring a guessing game of yes/no/maybe/no/no etc.
 

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True, over the years, we had different definition of that the ideal woman and ideal man are supposed to be like. From the gentleman of the 1950s to the party animal of the 1980s and the bad boy of the 2020s. But I don't think the "bad boy" is really a bad boy, just defiant. As you said, knowing how to treat a woman be playfully teasing/interesting, make them laugh; can come across as disrespectful to people who are focused on be nice, non-threatening, and therefore boring because you push some boundaries in it.
There may have been a time, perhaps in the Victorian era, where most men were so callus that simply being nice (in the gentlemanly sense) was all you needed. But I kind of doubt it.

Not only women, but people in general, men too, like to have emotional spikes. To feel either extremely positive or extremely negative for a short duration of time. It's right there in your definition, extremely negative: playfully teasing; extremely positive: interesting, make them laugh.

You can't be all like a deflated balloon, all agreeing with her, you can't just be there and be nice and expect girls will like you. You got to push some boundaries, but in a respectful way.
This.

And the thing is, it works with just about everyone. Mentally healthy men tease each other incessantly (go to any barber shop to see this) but that wasn’t something that, as an only child, I understood until much later in life. Healthy kids enjoy being playfully teased, and grandmothers too. My sons tease each other and their friends. It‘s what makes them friends.

Problem is, we don’t live in a healthy culture. Kids grow up alone, and in many cases can’t communicate through anything but a screen without getting hyper-emotional. As a college teacher, I’ve seen this. Social media fills them with unfounded fears that they can’t evaluate rationally yet. Then the fear center of the brain gets trained and it takes a long, long time to mentally dig yourself out of that hole.

However, teasing has to be non-hurtful.
Hurtful teases are called insults. There’s a world of difference between “I can see that your hair roots are obviously a different color than your hair.” and “Wow! I love your hair! But how on earth did you manage to dye just the roots and not the ends?”

Once, in college, a friend of mine and I went over to the house of a girl I liked. She said that she was going to go change before we all went out. My friend then said “Cool, I’ll wait outside. Hey! Which window is yours again?”

I (the simp) was horrified, but she laughed and shot him a radiant smile. I know that she liked me. The signs were all there. But I was never anything but “nice” to her. So I never made her laugh.

On the other side of the coin, you could jokingly praise yourself on non-important stuff.
It’s actually much more entertaining if, on a first date, you’re asked what you do for a living and you answer with a series of ridiculous jobs and make up the backstories for them as you go. This serves two purposes: It makes her laugh (and it’s great if she joins in too) but it also maintains some mystery and makes her more anxious to know what you really do. In which case you could admit to working pretty much any job and she’ll be much more interested in it.

If your job actually IS interesting, the payoff is even better. “Google Me” was how I’d finally answer truthfully (but teasing at the same time).

The point of these defiances is that they make the interaction a little bit spicy, it's a lot better than having someone who always agrees with you and always does what he is asked of.
And remember, if you’re both not having fun, you’re doing it wrong! This is a form of play.

Good advice. But for this part:
4) To seduce... Be friendly, tease them a little, make them laugh, and be a bit unpredictable at all times. You will be surprised how quickly and eagerly women will respond to this.
5) The real keepers will tease you right back. Because this shows that they have confidence in themselves.
6) To repel a woman you don't like, be really nice and non-threatening (uninteresting). They will almost immediately vanish.

Are you sure that it only applies to you, or it's a general thing in all women?
Oh no, it’s general to all women. Feminists especially. One moment you’re teasing them, then she starts showing you all the hilariously inappropriate pics she gets sent by creeps, and pretty soon you’re making out.

I see that I used the term "simp" the wrong way. I meant simping in the strict sense of being caring, attentive and helpful. Sort of being a gentleman. But not ending up doing destructive things where you get the short end of the stick. Helping her when you have nothing to lose, not helping her when you sacrifice a big part of yourself or your time to help her. You can decline politely or say you don't have time. Simping within reason, so to speak. As well as, and especially, as long as you also make a move towards her.
Friends, REAL friends have boundaries. They have other interests. They do other things. What they don’t do is hang out for 10+ hours a day like a real couple would, and have a one-way emotional bond where she (or he) dumps all of their relationship frustration on you.

Don't just be a simp, make a move towards her.
Once you’ve been simped, there is almost no way to get out of it. You could start hanging out with her less, setting some boundaries, and be seen with other women. That might get her attention and give you a small chance (if her actual boyfriend isn’t around) of getting somewhere romantically. Even if only for one night.

But chances are, she’s not worth it. Because then you’ll get the full weight of all her insecurities and her fear of being alone. Healthy women don’t allow simps near them, and healthy guys don’t want to be simps. The woman who simped me… Well let’s just say I looked her up years later and was VERY glad that I dodged that bullet. VERY VERY glad!

You can start as mutual friends and develop into a relationship. In fact, I think that's pretty much how it all went for me, I've never done "cold dating" in my life, except when I was the one approached.

But friendzone, already implies that 1 of them is not interested.
Mutual friends can absolutely develop a romance. Emphasis on MUTUAL. It happens all the time.

But in the friendzone, she has already established dominance over you. So the relationship will never be equal. If you make the first move, you will be rejected. Your only hope is for her to make the first move, and that’s a very unusual thing for a woman to do.
 

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What is the difference between being friend zoned and just being friends with someone?

Is it because at one point there was at least a one-sided attraction with the friendzoning, or some kind of romantic expectation?

I've never understood why people complain about friend zoning so much--it just sounds like being friends with someone. I've been on both sides of friend zoning and it doesn't bother me at all. I think that it's probably the best foundation for any relationship, but if a person is a good enough friend then the friendship can stand alone without romance, and the person should/does respect that their friend is ready for a healthy relationship. Because why wouldn't you want your friend to be happy? If they are a true friend you care about them, you are not just attracted to them.

Women might be confused by the social expectation that says "all men want to sleep with women" and think there's something wrong with them if a man rejects them, but it's stupid--just as it's stupid to depict something like friendship as negative, just because it doesn't have a romantic element. (Also I am not calling anyone stupid--I am saying the idea is stupid because it is harmful, and I don't like ideas that harm people.)

That being said, there are times when it's just better not to continue a friendship or see someone a lot--could be for any reason at all. So it's important to be able to accept when friendship just doesn't work for any reason, even if it's because of unresolved romantic feelings. I think.
There are many problems with being just friends when 1 side is romantically interested in the other, in the examples below I will use the woman as the one who wants to be friends and the guy as the one that wants something more.

1. Her bf is probably not gonna like it and theres going to be tension between them.
2. Her friend is going to get frustrated coz many women like to vent and complain about their relationships so shes going to vent to her male friend who likes her about how her current bf isn't treating her right and her male friend is going to think I'd treat you so much better, why don't you just date me?! Some white knights will feel compelled to protect her and probably pick a fight with her current bf which will end up fking up both the friendship and her relationship.
3. Men who are friends with u and also like u are probably going to end up simping at some point so hes going to try really hard to please u thinking he can sway u into seeing him as a good partner but hes going to fail coz ur not physically attracted to him but hes hopeful coz hes a moron but eventually hes going to get really frustrated coz nothing he does works and when hes frustrated he might start being negative like shes only using me etc...
4. It could fk his chances at other girls coz other women who might have been interested in him will think hes in love with u so hes losing opportunities and chances causing his oneitis to become even stronger on you.
5. Hes gonna get dissed from his friends for being a friend zoned simp coz most men wouldn't respect such a guy so he might end up having less male friends.
 

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Confidence alone don't mean shit mate, a 1/10 guy with 10/10 confidence doesn't pass the first stage which is the looks stage so his confidence is useless.
A 8/10 guy with 0/10 confidence will drop significantly in rating due to his lack of confidence.

So confidence is something that is expected of u but it's not the 1 thing women look for in a guy so it can't fully carry you either.
I think you’re projecting a male looks-first perspective onto women for whom it’s perhapes 1/3 as important.

I’m at best a 4, old, and fat. Albeit clean and nicely groomed. But I routinely get attention from women who are 7’s and 8’s. Even college girls and life guards. Because I’m confident, sarcastic, and interesting. Being married, I nice them away gently. But I still get hit on and/or flirted with several times a year.
 

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I think you’re projecting a male looks-first perspective onto women for whom it’s perhapes 1/3 as important.

I’m at best a 4, old, and fat. Albeit clean and nicely groomed. But I routinely get attention from women who are 7’s and 8’s. Even college girls and life guards. Because I’m confident, sarcastic, and interesting. Being married, I nice them away gently. But I still get hit on and/or flirted with several times a year.
You believe what u want m8 but this "all you need is confidence" B.S doesn't work from what I've seen. Notice that 2 men do the exact same shit, 1 is a 2/10 and other is a 9/10, the woman will generally say what the 2/10 did was creepy and what the 9/10 guy did was sexy/cute/insert positive remark here, thats the reality. Furthermore, many women will also bash the 2/10 for being confident and say he came off as cocky and arrogant instead. Women want you as a package, containing a combination of many traits, not a 1 trick pony.
 

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You believe what u want m8 but this "all you need is confidence" B.S doesn't work from what I've seen. Notice that 2 men do the exact same shit, 1 is a 2/10 and other is a 9/10, the woman will generally say what the 2/10 did was creepy and what the 9/10 guy did was sexy/cute/insert positive remark here, thats the reality. Furthermore, many women will also bash the 2/10 for being confident and say he came off as cocky and arrogant instead. Women want you as a package, containing a combination of many traits, not a 1 trick pony.
It's a combination of confidence and social status. That matters more to a woman than looks. In my culture (Eastern European) the babushkas have a saying: "The man needs to look slightly more handsome than the devil".

Now insert this into your experiment. Have the 2/10 wealthy, influential, fun and have the 9/10 be poor, no prospects, boring.

Let's see how that works out for the 9/10 guy.
 
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@INTJ_Artist @ENTJudgement @FreeKekistan
I took it upon myself to do a little test and ask my (very attractive) ESFP gf what she thinks are the most atttractive aspects in a man she could think of.
She mentioned the following:
Responsible, would make a good father, takes initiative, doesn't wait for permission from authorities, loyal, has integrity and sticks to their word.
Also to quote "It doesn't matter about anything else if they start repeating what they're being told. Ew."

Not all women judge by the same qualities, and if you're prepping yourself to be judged based on attractiveness, you'll find yourself going after women who value that more than things that are actually important(like some of the ones mentioned above). If you find yourself in a relationship with a woman who values only your looks and status at some point, don't get upset when they substitute you for someone with better looks and more status, because you didn't consider responsibility as a main factor yourselves.
 

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It's a combination of confidence and social status. That matters more to a woman than looks. In my culture (Eastern European) the babushkas have a saying: "The man needs to look slightly more handsome than the devil".

Now insert this into your experiment. Have the 2/10 wealthy, influential, fun and have the 9/10 be poor, no prospects, boring.

Let's see how that works out for the 9/10 guy.
My argument was confidence alone isn't enough not looks > everything else so you've just agreed with me.
 

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There are many problems with being just friends when 1 side is romantically interested in the other, in the examples below I will use the woman as the one who wants to be friends and the guy as the one that wants something more.

1. Her bf is probably not gonna like it and theres going to be tension between them.
2. Her friend is going to get frustrated coz many women like to vent and complain about their relationships so shes going to vent to her male friend who likes her about how her current bf isn't treating her right and her male friend is going to think I'd treat you so much better, why don't you just date me?! Some white knights will feel compelled to protect her and probably pick a fight with her current bf which will end up fking up both the friendship and her relationship.
3. Men who are friends with u and also like u are probably going to end up simping at some point so hes going to try really hard to please u thinking he can sway u into seeing him as a good partner but hes going to fail coz ur not physically attracted to him but hes hopeful coz hes a moron but eventually hes going to get really frustrated coz nothing he does works and when hes frustrated he might start being negative like shes only using me etc...
4. It could fk his chances at other girls coz other women who might have been interested in him will think hes in love with u so hes losing opportunities and chances causing his oneitis to become even stronger on you.
5. Hes gonna get dissed from his friends for being a friend zoned simp coz most men wouldn't respect such a guy so he might end up having less male friends.
That all seems like case-by-case basis stuff.

Just like you shouldn't be friends with everyone--or just limit your friendship to not include those things.

I've not been in a relationship for over ten years so I feel like it's almost ridiculous for me to even worry or think about this anymore, but I think that any person in a relationship should ask themselves about venting about their partner, especially to a friend who is possibly attracted to them. I think venting can help sometimes, but I'm not sure on it being a good idea to go to some people for relationship support, unless you know they have your relationship interest at heart and they are also capable of helping resolve issues. I also question if venting to the wrong person might expose vulnerabilities or possibly an emotional affair, though again--it depends on the friend and the relationship partner.

I don't believe in "simping." I think sympathy is generally a good thing--if someone is sympathetic, they need to evaluate whether or not it is hindering them and adjust according to that. "Simping" seems like a silly concept to me.

Yeah--being sympathetic isn't supposed to get you things, it's something you do when you're sympathizing with another. It mostly benefits another. People don't have to try to get something out of every interaction they have with another human, sometimes you can be generous or compassionate as well. Some people are more agreeable and "nice" than others--it doesn't mean anything other than that. If it's a problem, draw a boundary. Of course, giving things and expecting something in return isn't really friendly and anyone who does that is going to be disappointed. Probably best not to keep friends around who think they can extract things from you that you didn't offer, because of giving you something you didn't ask for.

If either friend finds their friendship interfering in their romantic prospects, seems good to re-evaluate. Even if it's their own feelings getting in the way. Sometimes people might need to avoid those they had feelings for in order to move on. That's fine.

A true friend, in my opinion, would want their friend's happiness and would respect if they need to do this, even if it's not ideal.

So yeah, I think all these are valid reasons to move on from a friendship or to stop engaging in one, or to not want to cultivate one.

I just don't think they're good reasons to make a rule about "friendzoning is bad." Some people are capable of managing their feelings of attraction better than others. Some people don't even feel attracted if it isn't reciprocated. Some people are going to find being friendly and acting in others best interest easier and more effortless than others, and some will find these things more challenging or perhaps not worth the energy if they need to direct it to other areas of their lives or other people--that's all legitimate.

But I still think concepts like "friend zoning" are silly because it's like--if you can't be a good friend and you need to make that rule, go ahead. But it doesn't mean someone did something bad to you by trying to be friends with you when it doesn't work for you. Then just have boundaries and choose not to do it if it doesn't work for you. I know it's easier said than done.

I do think graciously choosing not to be friends is more responsible than being a bad friend though--same thing with relationship partner. So I don't think there is anything at all wrong with just accepting if you don't want to be friends with someone or choosing to limit your interactions with them.
 
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