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Discussion Starter #1
Well whether my understanding of functions is very bad or everyone else get it wrong.
However i cannot see how Fi, which is a subjective function based on personal believes, rather than the universal ones, will lead to the gentle, easy-going INFP everyone is talking about?

To me this will lead to a personality type looking way more like what is considered INFJ. Since someone with personal belief system will be faced everyday to a society which contradicts their own views, having to deal with things they consider immoral and wrong according to their own belief system. It is natural that they will not turn into an all loving, all caring person that just want to go with the flow. Such a person will rather want to raise their voice and make their views known, they will try to fight for what they believe to be true and challenge the Fe system which is actually the norm. Leading to become an outcast, philosopher, someone being part of a rebelious subculture,...

In the other hand Fe is the universal emotions. Saying what please people, what they want to hear and feeling at one with the majority of people and their believes of what is rigth/wrong. Won't that rather lead to someone who is peace loving, easy going and non-violent? I know Ni is the main functions but being an internal percieving function it wont play a part here.

If i'am asking this (again) it is because i'am very confused, Fi is the function i relate to the most and i'am sure of being INF, so no doubt that i'am an INFP however i'am very far from the INFP description and recognise myself(especially young me) in INFJ description and i find it makes sens according to Fi. So what i'am understanding wrong??

https://www.stellarmaze.com/infj-vs-infp/

here for exemple in almost each point i recognise myself in the INFJ and the INFP seems like someone annoying i would like miles away from me.

However

https://www.psychologyjunkie.com/2015/08/24/what-type-of-feeler-are-you-the-difference-between-extraverted-and-introverted-feeling/

Here i relate totally to the Fi of wanting to seek internal harmony rather than external. And only empathising with people i consider close to me or to whom i feel sympathy rather than with the whole human race.

Anyway am i really the only one who see that Fi seems to suit more the INFJ description and Fe the INFP? How is are those functions supposed to suit their traditional role in those personalities? Because i really cannot see the logic
 

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Type descriptions online tend to be very confusing, especially for INFJ's and INFP's. They are the two most common types to be confused with one another, before truly understanding the functions. Even so, the two can appear similar on the outside, and even play similar roles, but the internal process is quite different. I know that I relate to INFJ type descriptions more than INFP ones. I am far more organized and decisive than INFP's are typically described, and even other INFP's online. I also find myself relating to Ni and Fe as well, but I don't use those functions consciously. It is said that the 6th function is quite strong, which is Fi for INFP's and Ni INFJ's. I believe that is where a lot of the confusion comes from, since the stacks share nothing in common, other than being NF's first, and not preferring sensing and thinking as much. Fe is, like you said is about universal emotions, and showing people what you're feeling so there is not any confusion (it's not a conscious decision to do so). Fi hides because it thinks it has to, for the sake of others, and due to fear. Fe feels that hiding would create more problems (most of the time), so emotion is about action, it's about what is seen. To Fi users, it is about the internal process. This doesn't mean Fi users only focus on their own emotions, that is a misconception. They just tend to know what they are feeling, because it is an internal process for them, which means they tend to connect deeply with other people's emotions as well. But for Fe, what you see is what you get. Both can be empathetic. I suggest researching the functions more, and looking at the functions separately, instead of reading type descriptions. Those can give you a lot of mixed results, and lead you into thinking that you're more than one type, which is simply impossible.
 
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Fi cares about internal harmony and being true to oneself. This translates to doing things and living in a way that feels right. Of course the external world can interfere with this process and create unhappiness, which is often internalized. How Fi users act depends on their actual beliefs. I personally prefer to lead by example and not be a loudmouth that interferes with other people's lives. From what I've seen here, many INFPs tend to be like that. We tend to be very protective of our Fi and so a lot of us are not very vocal about the things we believe in but rather confide in very few people. The behavior you describe seems to be more extroverted, in general.

Fe cares about external harmony and seeks to tweak disharmonious behaviors that upset that balance. Depending on the person and situation, this can be either good or bad for the rest.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Type descriptions online tend to be very confusing, especially for INFJ's and INFP's. They are the two most common types to be confused with one another, before truly understanding the functions. Even so, the two can appear similar on the outside, and even play similar roles, but the internal process is quite different. I know that I relate to INFJ type descriptions more than INFP ones. I am far more organized and decisive than INFP's are typically described, and even other INFP's online. I also find myself relating to Ni and Fe as well, but I don't use those functions consciously. It is said that the 6th function is quite strong, which is Fi for INFP's and Ni INFJ's. I believe that is where a lot of the confusion comes from, since the stacks share nothing in common, other than being NF's first, and not preferring sensing and thinking as much. Fe is, like you said about universal feelings, and showing people what you're feeling so there is not any confusion. Fi hides because it thinks it has to, for the sake of others, and due to fear. Fe feels that hiding would create more problems (most of the time), so emotion is about action, it's about what is seen. To Fi users, it is about the internal process. This doesn't mean Fi users only focus on their own emotions, that is a misconception. They just tend to know because it is an internal process for them, but they can use other functions to read people as well. But for Fe, what you see is what you get. I suggest researching the functions more, and looking at the functions separately, instead of reading type descriptions. Those can give you a lot of mixed results, and lead you into thinking that you're more than one type, which is simply impossible.
I dont think that i'am more than one type, i'am sure of being one of those 2, almost sure INFP according to the functions, however i'am SO far away from INFP description that it makes me doubt. However i'am very disorganised, it is most about the "all loving, easy-going, not caring" part that i dont belong. I'am more into surviving and fighting against the world.

How is that Fi is 6th function for INFP and Ni for INFJ? Or did you made a mistake here?

Thanks
 

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I dont think that i'am more than one type, i'am sure of being one of those 2, almost sure INFP according to the functions, however i'am SO far away from INFP description that it makes me doubt. However i'am very disorganised, it is most about the "all loving, easy-going, not caring" part that i dont belong. I'am more into surviving and fighting against the world.

How is that Fi is 6th function for INFP and Ni for INFJ? Or did you made a mistake here?

Thanks
Sorry for assuming that, and I did make a mistake, I meant to say that Fi is the 6th for INFJ's and Ni is the 6th for INFP's. Anyways, a lot of INFP's consider themselves disorganized, but the adjectives of "all loving, easy-going, not caring" are just stereotypes. I don't think it's possible to stick a stamp on a type filled with adjectives that describe them, but one can generalize without implying "all xxxx's" are "blank, blank, blank." The type descriptions for INFP's are honestly ridiculous in my opinion.
 
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Discussion Starter #6
Fi cares about internal harmony and being true to oneself. This translates to doing things and living in a way that feels right. Of course the external world can interfere with this process and create unhappiness, which is often internalized. How Fi users act depends on their actual beliefs. I personally prefer to lead by example and not be a loudmouth that interferes with other people's lives. From what I've seen here, many INFPs tend to be like that. We tend to be very protective of our Fi and so a lot of us are not very vocal about the things we believe in but rather confide in very few people. The behavior you describe seems to be more extroverted, in general.

Fe cares about external harmony and seeks to tweak disharmonious behaviors that upset that balance. Depending on the person and situation, this can be either good or bad for the rest.
Ok, i also sometimes dont want to voice what i feel to avoid confrontation, and know it might be hard to explain properly to other people, since their worldview generally happen to be so far away from mine. However i try to understand them in order to be able to later elaborate counter arguments. Maybe it is me being unhealthy, but this somehow lead to hatred for what i see as the dumb majority whose beliefs seem so stupid. Hence i'am far from wanting to sacrifice myself for others and dreaming of a paradise world. I rather want to have my worldview accepted and rescpected even if that lead to other people being unhappy, since according to me it is more valuable than what the majority blindly follow.
Maybe it is not Fi but rather that i'am unhealthy?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The type descriptions for INFP's are honestly ridiculous in my opinion.
Exactly, what i don't get is why it is done to Fi which in my opinion match way less with this ridiculous seterotype than Fe? Not saying Fe is ridiculous, but the seterotype would make more sens with Fe (even though it would still be a ridiculous stereotype).
 

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Ok, i also sometimes dont want to voice what i feel to avoid confrontation, and know it might be hard to explain properly to other people, since their worldview generally happen to be so far away from mine. However i try to understand them in order to be able to later elaborate counter arguments. Maybe it is me being unhealthy, but this somehow lead to hatred for what i see as the dumb majority whose beliefs seem so stupid. Hence i'am far from wanting to sacrifice myself for others and dreaming of a paradise world. I rather want to have my worldview accepted and rescpected even if that lead to other people being unhappy, since according to me it is more valuable than what the majority blindly follow.
Maybe it is not Fi but rather that i'am unhealthy?
if you are unhealthy as in depressed or feeling disillusioned then it can have an effect on how much you dream of a better world, or how easy you form intimate relationships and whatnot
INFPs can have self-sacrificial tendencies for specific people or causes that are super important to them but take those stereotypes with a grain of salt, MBTI isn't about specific beliefs but how your thought process works.
 

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Well whether my understanding of functions is very bad or everyone else get it wrong.
However i cannot see how Fi, which is a subjective function based on personal believes, rather than the universal ones, will lead to the gentle, easy-going INFP everyone is talking about?
It's complicated.

As between INFJs and INFPs, INFPs tend to be more relativistic in the values department, and be more naturally OK with the idea that I have "my truths" and you have "your truths."

And conversely, INFJs, at the gut level, are more inclined to want there to be certain values/truths/etc. that are everyone's truths.

(And the same applies to INTJs vs. INTPs — although it's the INTJs who line up with the INFJs and the INTPs who line up with the INFPs in this department, contrary to what the HaroldGrantian functionistas might lead you to believe.)

And this can mean that INFJs are both more likely to be found telling somebody else they're wrong about something, but also more willing (at least sometimes) to reconsider whether their current values/truths are correct — while INFPs can both be more hesitant to lecture somebody else about what's right or wrong, but also more stubbornly unwilling (sometimes) to reconsider one of their cherished values if they see it as a personal choice where nobody else should be trying to impose their personal choices on the INFP.

If you're interested, you can find a longer discussion of this issue here.
 

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Dominant Fi gives the individual a high degree of empathy - knowing their own feelings so well gives them an ability to relate to others, which includes the pain the other person would feel if the Fi-dom were to hurt them. Also, dominant Fi creates a system of moral principles and values - and as far as I know, most people don't have violence and conflict among their principal values. Thus, INFPs are generally kind and quiet if not treated badly because it's their way of adhering to the principles of their Fi.
Another important thing is the order of the functions. Fe as you describe it only shows in that way as a dominant - in the INFJ it's auxiliary. Auxiliary Fe is often used by the individual as a means to get their way by subtle manipulation and taking advantage. As an auxiliary, it's merely a tool used by the dominant Ni (which I think involves hunches, insights, subconscious processing of information and visions of the future, but I'm not very well informed on Ni).

I'd also like to add an empirical argument: one of my friends is an INFP and he's one of the most sensitive and caring people I've ever met. He's strongly against violence and always tries really hard not to hurt anyone's feelings. I've seen his Fi in action - he usually speaks in terms of right and wrong and adheres strongly to his own moral principles but he's not really concerned about group dynamics as an Fe-dom would be. That doesn't make him any less of a warm, sympathetic person, though.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
And this can mean that INFJs are both more likely to be found telling somebody else they're wrong about something, but also more willing (at least sometimes) to reconsider whether their current values/truths are correct — while INFPs can both be more hesitant to lecture somebody else about what's right or wrong, but also more stubbornly unwilling (sometimes) to reconsider one of their cherished values if they see it as a personal choice where nobody else should be trying to impose their personal choices on the INFP.
So the reason is that INFJ has the idea that there is one objective truth and have a hard time understanding someone can hold another opinion, so they will want to correct the person who's opinion is deviating from this so called truth. In the other hand they are more likely to change their own percpective to accomodate to this objective truth if external sources comes to confirm that one of their point is not conforming to it.
In the other hand INFP have the idea that everyone has there own truth so they will accept other people's truth but wont change their own, since there is not a objective default truth to which there is a need to accomodate, according to them. Well maybe the only truth here would be that there is no one universal truth, or at least not a fixed one that we can be 100% sure about.
Hope i got it right.

I also would like to thank you for your great work. I red some of your discussions and it is amazing, i hope one day to have such a great understanding as you have of typology.
 

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So the reason is that INFJ has the idea that there is one objective truth and have a hard time understanding someone can hold another opinion, so they will want to correct the person who's opinion is deviating from this so called truth. In the other hand they are more likely to change their own percpective to accomodate to this objective truth if external sources comes to confirm that one of their point is not conforming to it.
In the other hand INFP have the idea that everyone has there own truth so they will accept other people's truth but wont change their own, since there is not a objective default truth to which there is a need to accomodate, according to them. Well maybe the only truth here would be that there is no one universal truth, or at least not a fixed one that we can be 100% sure about.
The main point I'm moved to add is that it's important to keep in mind that MBTI preferences are about tendencies and probabilities, and about what you might call (in many cases) gut inclinations, and often don't involve being 100% one thing and 0% the opposite.

So, for example, it's perfectly possible — likely, even — for an INFJ to hold a particular value, and try to convince others of it, in a way that reflects a strong gut tendency to prefer more universal truths/values, and to want to believe they exist, and to feel that they ought to exist, and to speak in an I'm-right-you're-wrong kind of way, while at the same time being an INFJ who, if you were a friend of theirs and you engaged them in a late-night philosophical discussion, would concede that yes, unfortunately, there might be no such thing as objective values.

MBTI statistics show that NFJs are the most likely types to become members of the clergy, and that NFPs are considerably less likely, and I think that's somewhat reflective of the NFJs' greater temperamental attraction to universal beliefs/values — but it's not uncommon for a clergyperson to be someone who isn't inclined to try to convert people of other religions (or non-religious people).

And similarly (and conversely), an INFP might have a P preference that pulls them quite a bit more strongly in the relativistic, everybody's-got-their-own-perspective direction as a general matter, while at the same time it might not be that unusual to find them engaging in a debate (about an issue they feel very strongly about) where their words, and their tone, make them sound just as passionately convinced they're right (and that somebody else is doing something heinously wrong) as an INFJ would. And on the other hand, it's not like you shouldn't expect an INFP, at any given moment, to have a number of beliefs and values that they don't feel particularly committed to, and would be open to change if somebody made what they considered a convincing argument.

As you may know, I'm not a believer in the eight-function MBTI framing, and I think it's a mistake to think that INFJs and INFPs use two very different mental functions ("Fe" and "Fi") to value things. INFJs are arguably more like INFPs than any of the other types, and in any case, their similarities greatly outnumber their differences, and their differences involve more complication and nuance than black-and-whitish oppositions.
 

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INFJ's and INFP's tend to have very similar behaviours. Personality is one of the driving forces for behaviour, but definitely not the only one. This means that looking at behaviour can be a very misleading way to arrive at someone's personality.
 

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However i cannot see how Fi, which is a subjective function based on personal believes, rather than the universal ones, will lead to the gentle, easy-going INFP everyone is talking about?
Because Fi is naturally a reflective function. Fi is feeling driven inward. Fi retreats from the world to find answers to their feelings, while Fe seeks the world for find answers for what they're feeling. It's really far simpler than we make it out to be, but its the accumulative effects that make it confusing.

Infp's inherently should understand the reflective process, its in our very nature to retreat within ourselves to process our emotions. It is like trying to silence the crowd around you because they are loud and distracting, as you tune in your radio to listen to your internal broadcasting. If that makes any sense. Observation of the internal broadcasting can lead to a very, sometimes painfully, self-aware individual. Which can result in an emotionally balanced or unbalanced individual, depending on how they respond to it according to their belief system. That is why infp's will often be gentle, because we have explored our own inner shadows/faults and know to anticipate them, thus we usually balance our external behaviors to account for it (if we're healthy). To summarize, Fi acts in anticipation of internal values/emotions.

To me this will lead to a personality type looking way more like what is considered INFJ. Since someone with personal belief system will be faced everyday to a society which contradicts their own views, having to deal with things they consider immoral and wrong according to their own belief system. It is natural that they will not turn into an all loving, all caring person that just want to go with the flow. Such a person will rather want to raise their voice and make their views known, they will try to fight for what they believe to be true and challenge the Fe system which is actually the norm. Leading to become an outcast, philosopher, someone being part of a rebelious subculture,...
Feeling directed inwards leads to a complicated individual. Maybe some fi-doms will become the rebellious outcast or open philosopher, but this is not a key part of fi. Fi is not just about what is expressed, it is almost more about about what isn't expressed. Fi is "still waters run deep". It's a "tip of the iceberg" sort of situation. What you see at the tip of the iceberg is a fraction of the individual. It does not necessarily mean that the fi user is being inauthentic to themselves if there appears to be an an observable mismatch from an outsider's perspective, because you just don't know the full picture. I think while on the surface infj's and infp's appear very similar, once you start digging into their core motivations they are very different.

In the other hand Fe is the universal emotions. Saying what please people, what they want to hear and feeling at one with the majority of people and their believes of what is rigth/wrong. Won't that rather lead to someone who is peace loving, easy going and non-violent? I know Ni is the main functions but being an internal percieving function it wont play a part here.
Fe can easily be peace-loving, easy-going and nonviolent. But it can also be pushy and judgemental and outright manipulative if it feels justified in being so. This is also not a key part of Fe, because fi can also be this way if its internal broadcasting says its justified. Fe isn't just "saying what people want to hear", but it does act in anticipation of externally held values/emotions, which will sometimes but not always translate into people-pleasing. At the risk of misrepresenting Fe as a Fi-dom, I think I'll stop there.
 

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Am I the only one who stopped reading the OP after the 1st paragraph due to the overbearing sense of Inferior Te?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
reckful said:
As you may know, I'm not a believer in the eight-function MBTI framing, and I think it's a mistake to think that INFJs and INFPs use two very different mental functions ("Fe" and "Fi") to value things. INFJs are arguably more like INFPs than any of the other types, and in any case, their similarities greatly outnumber their differences, and their differences involve more complication and nuance than black-and-whitish oppositions.

Does that mean that you don't believe in cognitive functions? Because i always tend to be between F and T. I score almost similar in both and sometimes higher at T and then the other way around. However the rest is pretty clear, never scored as an Extrovert (and i'am clearly an introvert), always iNtuition over Sensing and P is close to J but in my life i'am clearly a P(rocrastinator) :tongue:

However INTP and INFP always come to play, i can relate way more to Fi than Ti, but i also can somehow relate to Ti more than Te for exemple, and Fe is clearly the one i lack. So the idea that just one letter changes everything seems weird to me, because i can relate to both INTP and INFP and in my everyday life i behave more like an INTP, actually INFP is the type description i relate to the less of the four INXX types. However Fi is the cognitive function i relate to the most :confused:
@crazitaco

You really explained that well, i understand now better Fi vs Fe. I also tend to need to shut the environement in order to analyse my emotions/opinions about a given topic in order to form a solid opinion. I try to make everything (values, judgement,..) logic and stand together in order to have integrity (try to correct my contradictions) so i'am sure i can win a debate, even if it is (most of the time) a debate against myself. I also tend to anticipate how a situation will make me feel, and if i know it will make me feel bad, i will try avoid it at all cost, even if it will make other people feel bad.

myjazz said:
Am I the only one who stopped reading the OP after the 1st paragraph due to the overbearing sense of Inferior Te?
Juging a whole post just by reading the first paragraph? Maybe you are the one having Te problems? :eek:h::

Anyway i'am happy that you confirm my idea of INFJ being the ones who are the easily triggered crybabies :wink:
 

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Does that mean that you don't believe in cognitive functions? ...

However INTP and INFP always come to play, i can relate way more to Fi than Ti, but i also can somehow relate to Ti more than Te for exemple, and Fe is clearly the one i lack. So the idea that just one letter changes everything seems weird to me, because i can relate to both INTP and INFP and in my everyday life i behave more like an INTP, actually INFP is the type description i relate to the less of the four INXX types. However Fi is the cognitive function i relate to the most :confused:
I think James Reynierse was right to characterize the cognitive functions as a "category mistake" — as he did in a series of articles in the journal published by the official MBTI folks (including "The Case Against Type Dynamics"). And if you're interested, you can read more about that issue in this post and the posts it links to.

And as a side note, it's been my experience that all four of the IN types tend to relate more to typical "Fi" descriptions than typical "Fe" descriptions, partly because it's not uncommon for Fe descriptions to include elements that are better fits for EFJs than IFJs.

If you're interested — and only if you're interested — in quite a lot of input from me on J/P, see the spoiler in this post. And if anybody tries to tell you that INFJs and INFPs are waaay different (because functions!) or that you can't possibly be an INFx (because functions!), you may want to look at this post.

On INF vs. INT, I think T/F is the messiest of the four MBTI dimensions, and I'm forever noting, based on eight years of forum typing experience, that it's not uncommon for INFs to test as INTs, at least partly because many of the F choices on typical MBTI tests (including the official test) are choices that are more likely to appeal to SFs and EFs than INFs.

Just in case you're interested — and only if you're interested — in a little more discussion of that issue, and quite a lot more of my take on T/F, you'll find it in this "intro to T/F" post.

As a final note, I also think that it's possible for someone to be sufficiently middlish on one or more of the MBTI dimensions that "x" is at least arguably the best designation for that dimension.
 

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Juging a whole post just by reading the first paragraph? Maybe you are the one having Te problems? :eek:h::

Anyway i'am happy that you confirm my idea of INFJ being the ones who are the easily triggered crybabies :wink:

Your reply points more evidence of you being a high Fi user.
Btw yes you are kinda correct about me having a Te problem. Extroverted Thinking is slightly my nemesis and with the degree of how Te was being used in the Inferior way forced by Fi ,easily triggered yes indeed.

I am stumbled on how I am being a crybaby?
 

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i cannot see how Fi, which is a subjective function based on personal believes, rather than the universal ones, will lead to the gentle, easy-going INFP everyone is talking about?
I think gentle, easy-going INFP leads to Fi rather than the other way around.
 

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Well whether my understanding of functions is very bad or everyone else get it wrong.
However i cannot see how Fi, which is a subjective function based on personal believes, rather than the universal ones, will lead to the gentle, easy-going INFP everyone is talking about?

To me this will lead to a personality type looking way more like what is considered INFJ. Since someone with personal belief system will be faced everyday to a society which contradicts their own views, having to deal with things they consider immoral and wrong according to their own belief system. It is natural that they will not turn into an all loving, all caring person that just want to go with the flow. Such a person will rather want to raise their voice and make their views known, they will try to fight for what they believe to be true and challenge the Fe system which is actually the norm. Leading to become an outcast, philosopher, someone being part of a rebelious subculture,...

In the other hand Fe is the universal emotions. Saying what please people, what they want to hear and feeling at one with the majority of people and their believes of what is rigth/wrong. Won't that rather lead to someone who is peace loving, easy going and non-violent? I know Ni is the main functions but being an internal percieving function it wont play a part here.

If i'am asking this (again) it is because i'am very confused, Fi is the function i relate to the most and i'am sure of being INF, so no doubt that i'am an INFP however i'am very far from the INFP description and recognise myself(especially young me) in INFJ description and i find it makes sens according to Fi. So what i'am understanding wrong??

https://www.stellarmaze.com/infj-vs-infp/

here for exemple in almost each point i recognise myself in the INFJ and the INFP seems like someone annoying i would like miles away from me.

However

https://www.psychologyjunkie.com/2015/08/24/what-type-of-feeler-are-you-the-difference-between-extraverted-and-introverted-feeling/

Here i relate totally to the Fi of wanting to seek internal harmony rather than external. And only empathising with people i consider close to me or to whom i feel sympathy rather than with the whole human race.

Anyway am i really the only one who see that Fi seems to suit more the INFJ description and Fe the INFP? How is are those functions supposed to suit their traditional role in those personalities? Because i really cannot see the logic
These might help:

https://www.idrlabs.com/infographic/cognitive-functions-at-a-glance.php

https://www.idrlabs.com/articles/2016/09/infj-vs-infp/

http://personalitycafe.com/infp-forum-idealists/52640-difference-between-infj-infp-4.html (the first post in the page #4 (the one that I linked you to) might help.)

http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/151299-infp-vs-infj-whats-greatest-difference.html
 
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