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Discussion Starter #1
So, for many years I always felt very torn between type 4 and 9. People say they are different, and they are, but I still relate deeply to both of them. It's a push and pull in many aspects, sure. But this doesn't seem to be uncommon. Many people are confused between type 9 and 4. It seems to be one of the most common confusions within actually knowledgable people regarding the Enneagram.

Even some 9s on YouTube say they also deeply resonate to the 4. How can that be explained in Enneagram terms? I know that the Enneagram is just a theory and no science and all that. But that's not what I'm talking about.

A 9 seems to always want to merge, dissociate, numb out. Be nice, be gentle, be warm, be peaceful or just neutral. No conflict, fake peace, being a sloth to themselves. Merging with a partner, an idea, a group, food or whatever. And of course, when getting healthier, getting more and more closer to themselves and more assertive and out there. Okay.

A 4 seems to be very emotional. Different. Special. Unique. And they want others to know. Introveted and withdrawn, yes, but also wanting to get out there to show who they are or who they think they are. Often creative, artistic. Often lost in emotion. Feeling like an outcast and outsider and having that as an identity. Can be very depressed when unhealthy.

So, I relate to both of those descriptions. I say I'm a 9 because that's what people most type me with and because my core childhood trauma is relatable to being a 9.

I'm a peaceful, nice, warm guy who likes to be quiet and calm and comfortable. I like to avoid conflict, I like to go with the flow. I believe in peace. I often loose myself in people, things... I dissociate often and instead of finally writing that book I will watch pointless Youtube videos again. In groups I will avoid conflict. Numbing myself with the TV, a partner or whatever is my everyday activity.

BUT on the other hand, things turn around often, too. I get unhappy. I feel the loss of myself. I feel this fake peace. And I hate it!
Then I feel more 4ish. Suddenly my food, healthy, happy food instagram turns into me writing deeply about my emotions. I dwell on my emotions for days. I push my partner and tell him how I feel and I want him to know it. I want everyone to know. I'm searching for an identity. Who am I? What do I want to do? How do I want to express those deep feelings I feel? I can lay in bed for hours just feeling feelings, thinking about those things. Instead of neutral to slightly happy I'm suddenly moody, brooding, maybe even a bit aggressive. But only to my partner and myself. I'm always a chameleon in groups (I avoid groups anyways).

I literally feel like I cycle from 9 to 4 to 9 to 4 to 9 to 4.
Losing myelf -> finding myself with the need to express myself -> losing myself in whatever "truth" I have found -> finding myself new and fresh again

And I know what I want and what I need. I have more a problem with controlling my partner than changing to what he needs. But actually, it's both. Things I'm neutral about. Sure. He likes to skateboard, I'll go with it. But if something is important to me, I will want it or at least talk about it. I'm the one who talks about feelings. I'm the one to open conflict. I'm the one to push. I don't know his type, but he could wait much longer. If I feel something is wrong, I want to talk.

Also, a very clinical example: I'm very afraid of conflict with my therapist because I wanted to quit a job (9 tendencies), so I take drugs and make myself sicker and sicker, so that others see it and decide for me. Okay. Done. After that I went on a whole self-disocvery trip. Wanting to be only true to myself now. Feeling myself. Following my path. My passion. Searching for what makes me special. This seems 4ish.

Can someone explain?
 

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Basically, you can't put yourself in a box and expect yourself to fit one type perfectly. Pretty much everyone out there should relate to more than one type rather well, and sometimes we relate to types rather closely.

A 9 seems to always want to merge, dissociate, numb out. Be nice, be gentle, be warm, be peaceful or just neutral. No conflict, fake peace, being a sloth to themselves. Merging with a partner, an idea, a group, food or whatever. And of course, when getting healthier, getting more and more closer to themselves and more assertive and out there. Okay.
Yeah, that's the thing. Nobody would always want to do those things. People within a type can act different based on different circumstances, such as health levels for instance. So that's not the cycle that every 9 goes through.

BUT on the other hand, things turn around often, too. I get unhappy. I feel the loss of myself. I feel this fake peace. And I hate it!
Then I feel more 4ish. Suddenly my food, healthy, happy food instagram turns into me writing deeply about my emotions. I dwell on my emotions for days. I push my partner and tell him how I feel and I want him to know it. I want everyone to know. I'm searching for an identity. Who am I? What do I want to do? How do I want to express those deep feelings I feel? I can lay in bed for hours just feeling feelings, thinking about those things. Instead of neutral to slightly happy I'm suddenly moody, brooding, maybe even a bit aggressive. But only to my partner and myself. I'm always a chameleon in groups (I avoid groups anyways).
This is a problem with descriptions of 4, is that other types can feel rather emotional depending on their level of health. And hell, searching for an identity is universal. Doing these things does not make you a 4.

For example, a 9 can feel an outburst of emotions due to bottling them up for so long. They can let it out through creative outlets, like what you do for your food blog. That doesn't mean they're not a 9..

Okay. Done. After that I went on a whole self-disocvery trip. Wanting to be only true to myself now. Feeling myself. Following my path. My passion. Searching for what makes me special. This seems 4ish.

Can someone explain?
Like I said above, a search for identity and authenticity can be universal.

I honestly think that many people mistype as 4 because 4 has been associated as the "self-discovery" type.

When typing, people need to look into the core fears and behaviors of each type. Of each triad. Not just the lists of stereotypical behaviors.
 

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Both FOUR and NINE are in the withdrawn stance and tend to have a resigned outlook on what they crave out of life (so does FIVE).

However FOUR and NINE are definitively wired in a different way. FOURs are in the heart center and have a deep-seated issue with their image and how they are percieved by others, just like TWO and THREE. FOURs, particuarlity have issues with their percieved broken identity and try to cope with lack of wholeness and feelings of inferiority. FOURs always feel their emotions first when confronted with daily problems and generally focus on the negative side of a situation. Of course, they might not voice it, but they definitely feel it. The dominant instinct can heavily modify the how some FOURs resolve their feelings of envy and inferiority. Sexual fours are generally more dramatic and competitive, socials turn against themselves and try to maintain a vulnerable image, and self-perservation fours are the least likely to show their pain and can act stoic in the face of suffering.

NINEs, on the other hand, are in the body center and are out of touch with their needs. Like EIGHTs and ONEs, they want to avoid being influenced by others. NINEs fear being disconnected with their environment and want to keep things and relationships balanced and harmonious. Conflict can be devastating for NINEs, especially if they are the source of the issue. Most NINEs have a healing presence and don't feel particularily emotional most of the time since they even out every events in hopes of maintaining neutrality and peace. Even if they have a FOUR fix in their tritype, they still want to ease things out first and foremost. They will feel their emotions, but try to shush them after a while, even when they are very positive.
 

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9 feels like this thing that wants to come and go, like an animal expecting to feed on their stash....complete my never-ending-story.

4 is like protag/antag where the other plays a role in their story, or fantasy. The identity pay-off. I'm starving, stop me from feeling like there will never be a rapture... I'll push-pull too, but please..... let's not go simplistic. Mirror me... but still want me, complete me, leave me not wanting,

It's like you want your partner to merge more with you, at 9 speed, but they have no idea what your needs are. But both types come off NF, so they really do seem the same.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
@letdown

Sure. So you would say the 4 is mainly about the basic fear: having no identity or personal significance. But the 4s basic desire is to find their identity and their significance. So while everyone is trying to find their identity, the 4 is trying to do that much more, right? I relate to the basic fear a lot, too. My fear of having no identity or significance has led me to attach myself to an image of a mentally ill person for many, many years. I didn't want to let go of it. It was so awesome to have this image, this "identity" of a suffering, broken person. I loved it. But I also felt like I was faking and that it wasn't me. This was one of the most important core issues of my mental illness. Identity. Attaching myself to being different and suffering, because if not, then what is left?

At the same time, I also deeply resonate to the core fears and desires of a 9.

Both of these types explain the core issues I have in life. I can see that it's push/pull and sometime some is stronger than the other, but both always balance each other out. So I guess the explanation has to be tritype theory, right? Or simply choosing which one is stronger. Which would be the 9, but it's close.

@Karkino

Yes, but again, I relate to both close to equally. Sometimes I'm one more than the other, sometimes I relate to botch in a very push/pull manner. I'm a very emotional person. I'm very passionate about my emotions. I feel a lot of envy (it's my main motivation) and inferiority. I literally don't have a job, because I feel too horrible in the jobs I had.
On the other hand I can be very out of touch with my needs. I want to keep the peace. My goal is to feel peace and be closer to neutrality. And I'm generally descriped as easy-going, calm, grounded and relaxed.

So yea. To the outside I feel like a 9 more often. In the inside I feel like a 4 more often.
With my partner I feel more like a 4. When I'm alone more like a 4, but I can also get cought up in numbing myself with TV, videos or stuff like that. But here again I will also quickly get a feeling of "You are numbing yourself and it feels horrible!". Then I either try to ignore that and also numb that or I will work with the feeling.

I'm pretty much a very sensitive, very emotional person who had many, many issues in the past. Now it's ok. But I still often feel scared of my emotions, because they used to overwhelm me. So sometimes I choose to numb myself. But other times I want to deal with my stuff and work with it, express it, live it, be authentic. In social situations (groups) I always seem very 9. I have big social anxiety + I'm a huge introvert. That's the only thing that works for me. Trying to merge with the people.
And again, in my relationship I'm demanding, pushing, a perfectionist. I can feel and think about my relationship all day. What I want, what I need, what I don't get, why I don't get it. And I also talk about it. It was a big learning lesson for me to be more neutral and accepting in a relationship.

So yea. I know who I am. But I like the Enneagram and the MBTI! And all that. I want to try to fit myself into there.

MBTI is crystal clear to me, I'm an INFP. I relate to Ni, but other than that I'm pretty much clearly Fi/Ne/Si/Te.

So yea, I don't know. I relate to 9 more and it resonates with me more than 4, but I feel like a turbulent 9. I can be so emotional, turbulent, passive-aggressive, expressive, manipulative sometimes... and when I read descriptions about 9 it's always those 99% of the time peaceful, more on the numb-side, blending in people. And while that's true for me, I also have this hard edge. In comparison to when I think of 9s in real life.

My therapist literally sees me as manipulative, impulsive and destructive. But also very self-reflected and intelligent. But she only sees that side that I'm talking about in therapy, obviously.
Yea, I feel like I relate to 9, but when getting unhealthy or when I feel too bland/numb/merged I feel like I go to a 4 and not to a 6.

@Full_fathom_4

Yes, I honestly feel like especially with INFPs they seem very similar. Most of the time I relate to both 9 and 4 fears/desires/descriptions. I agree that the types in theory are very different, but in a human being they don't have to be.
 

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Sure. So you would say the 4 is mainly about the basic fear: having no identity or personal significance. But the 4s basic desire is to find their identity and their significance. So while everyone is trying to find their identity, the 4 is trying to do that much more, right?
Yes, that's part of it. I think many people overestimate their attachment to finding their identity (I don't necessarily think that you are doing so, but it's just a common problem) which causes a lot of mistyping regarding type 4.

Also, another important thing about the 4 that isn't explicitly stated in the basic fear/desire is their relationship to shame and how it relates to their identity.

Both of these types explain the core issues I have in life. I can see that it's push/pull and sometime some is stronger than the other, but both always balance each other out. So I guess the explanation has to be tritype theory, right? Or simply choosing which one is stronger. Which would be the 9, but it's close.
I agree. Some people push away tritype theory as invalid, but I respectfully disagree with them.

I think tritype has valid points. I like the idea of being balanced between fears regarding heart/shame, head/anxiety, and gut/anger.

Of course, one type will be strongest and that will be your core type. However, nothing is wrong with having a close fix.

Hope this helps in some way.
 

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Buttahfly
You sound a lot like me since I'm also a FOUR regardless of my frequent changes about my enneatype. The pull between FOUR and NINE is understandable if you have tried to numb yourself from emotional pain and/or past abuse. It can be incredibly hard to know which type is stronger if each of them are quite close to each other. Also, since INFP is heavily correlated with type FOUR (Fi need for checking in for identity and FOUR embracing the whole concept of "be yourself"), it's even easier to trick yourself into thinking you're a FOUR. I'm not saying you're not, but it can be quite arduous without an external lense to see yourself.
That being said, based on what you said, I think you're a core FOUR since you are aware of numbing yourself and that you seem to give quite a bit of importance about your self-image (which is a common theme in the heart center). Take my opinion with a pinch of salt, however, as it is way better to compare multiple sources of information and, most importantly, follow your gut instinct towards that questioning of yours. Besides, I'm in the same boat regarding my head fix...so, I might not be the most credible source. :)
 

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So, for many years I always felt very torn between type 4 and 9. People say they are different, and they are, but I still relate deeply to both of them. It's a push and pull in many aspects, sure. But this doesn't seem to be uncommon. Many people are confused between type 9 and 4. It seems to be one of the most common confusions within actually knowledgable people regarding the Enneagram.

Even some 9s on YouTube say they also deeply resonate to the 4. How can that be explained in Enneagram terms? I know that the Enneagram is just a theory and no science and all that. But that's not what I'm talking about.

A 9 seems to always want to merge, dissociate, numb out. Be nice, be gentle, be warm, be peaceful or just neutral. No conflict, fake peace, being a sloth to themselves. Merging with a partner, an idea, a group, food or whatever. And of course, when getting healthier, getting more and more closer to themselves and more assertive and out there. Okay.

A 4 seems to be very emotional. Different. Special. Unique. And they want others to know. Introveted and withdrawn, yes, but also wanting to get out there to show who they are or who they think they are. Often creative, artistic. Often lost in emotion. Feeling like an outcast and outsider and having that as an identity. Can be very depressed when unhealthy.

So, I relate to both of those descriptions. I say I'm a 9 because that's what people most type me with and because my core childhood trauma is relatable to being a 9.

I'm a peaceful, nice, warm guy who likes to be quiet and calm and comfortable. I like to avoid conflict, I like to go with the flow. I believe in peace. I often loose myself in people, things... I dissociate often and instead of finally writing that book I will watch pointless Youtube videos again. In groups I will avoid conflict. Numbing myself with the TV, a partner or whatever is my everyday activity.

BUT on the other hand, things turn around often, too. I get unhappy. I feel the loss of myself. I feel this fake peace. And I hate it!
Then I feel more 4ish. Suddenly my food, healthy, happy food instagram turns into me writing deeply about my emotions. I dwell on my emotions for days. I push my partner and tell him how I feel and I want him to know it. I want everyone to know. I'm searching for an identity. Who am I? What do I want to do? How do I want to express those deep feelings I feel? I can lay in bed for hours just feeling feelings, thinking about those things. Instead of neutral to slightly happy I'm suddenly moody, brooding, maybe even a bit aggressive. But only to my partner and myself. I'm always a chameleon in groups (I avoid groups anyways).

I literally feel like I cycle from 9 to 4 to 9 to 4 to 9 to 4.
Losing myelf -> finding myself with the need to express myself -> losing myself in whatever "truth" I have found -> finding myself new and fresh again

And I know what I want and what I need. I have more a problem with controlling my partner than changing to what he needs. But actually, it's both. Things I'm neutral about. Sure. He likes to skateboard, I'll go with it. But if something is important to me, I will want it or at least talk about it. I'm the one who talks about feelings. I'm the one to open conflict. I'm the one to push. I don't know his type, but he could wait much longer. If I feel something is wrong, I want to talk.

Also, a very clinical example: I'm very afraid of conflict with my therapist because I wanted to quit a job (9 tendencies), so I take drugs and make myself sicker and sicker, so that others see it and decide for me. Okay. Done. After that I went on a whole self-disocvery trip. Wanting to be only true to myself now. Feeling myself. Following my path. My passion. Searching for what makes me special. This seems 4ish.

Can someone explain?
Misidentifying Fours and Nines
Some average Nines think that they are Fours because they have artistic talents and creative inclinations of one kind or another. As in the case of love not being the sole domain of Twos, artistic capacity is not the sole province of Fours. Other types can be, and often are, artists.
Even so, the artistry of Fours is much more personal and self-revealing than that of Nines. The art of Nines often expresses idealized, mythological, and archetypal worlds–usually the real world glossed into something fantastic and wondrous. Nines are often gifted storytellers in which "...and they all lived happily ever after" is assured. (There are no unhappy endings in the Nine's world of make-believe.) By contrast, the art of Fours is generally more personal and realistic, the expression of the Four's (and of everyone's) deep longing for love, wholeness, and meaning. Fours often deal in the tragic, finding redemption in self-transcendence; Nines deal in the commonplace, finding comfort in ordinary lives and simple situations.
The principal reason these types may be confused is that they are both withdrawn types. (PT, 433-36). Fours withdraw from others so that they can protect themselves and give themselves time to deal with their emotions. Nines, on the other hand, are withdrawn in the sense that they remove their attention from people or situations that threaten them, disengaging themselves emotionally so that they will not be anxious or upset. They cut off their identification with others (or never identify with them in the first place), identifying instead with a private idealized version of reality. Average to unhealthy Nines tune out any unpleasantness by dissociating from whatever upsets them, whereas Fours do just the opposite, brooding over their anxieties in an attempt to come to terms with them. Fours are certainly not detached from their emotions–just the reverse, they are keenly aware of them, perhaps too much so.
Both types can therefore be shy, absent-minded, confused, and detached from the real world. The difference is that Nines are detached both from the external world and from their emotions, whereas Fours withdraw from whatever has caused them pain. (In the end, that may add up to quite a lot.) Nines see the world through rose-colored glasses, and their view of it is comforting, whereas Fours see the world from a garret window as outsiders and are not comforted: everyone else seems to be living a happier, more normal life. Contrast the personalities of Mahler (a Four) and Aaron Copland (a Nine), Saul Steinberg (a Four) and Norman Rockwell (a Nine).
Misidentifying 4 and 9

My Life is a Lie: I'm an Enneagram 4, not a 9

Misidentification 4+9

If You're Confused about your Enneagram Type, Read this
 

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Discussion Starter #9
@letdown @Karkino @tanstaafl28

Thank you all for your ideas and your links and your information!
I wasn't able to see if I'm more 9 or more 4 yet, but maybe I'm just not able to at the moment. Maybe time will tell. I think my knowledge about the types would be enough to figure it out, but I feel like I can't see myself clearly yet.
 

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I personally use the tritype theory, so I'd say it's simply highly probable that you are either a 9 core with a strong 4 fix, or the other way around.
Since 9s and 4s are from different trias (Gut vs Heart), I don't think there's a high need to oppose them : they work with different aspects of yourself, they complement each other rather than fight against one another. However I understand wanting to make up your mind about which would be your core, and that's also the best way to understand your core issues.

Have you looked up health path such as integration or disintegration ?
Maybe identifying how you act in period of intense stress, or what kind of qualities you need to acquire the most would help.
9s disintegrate to 6 behaviour and integrate into 3 qualities.
4s disintegrate to 2 behaviour and integrate into 1 qualities.

EDIT : There are also other triads who exist apart from Gut/Heart/Head and Withdrawn/Compliant/Assertive
For exemple the Object Relations triad group up the types like this : 8/5/2, 9/3/6, 1/4/7. First groupe stands for "Rejection", second for "Attachment" and the third for "Frustration".
The Harmonic triads look like this : 2/7/9, 4/6/8, 1/3/5. 279 are Positive Outlook, 468 Emotionnal Realness and 135 Comptency.
Maybe looking at it from these angles can help you make up your mind too ! I find these triads interesting to learn about either way.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
@Leilamy

Sure, that's a good way to see it and explains why it's so difficult for me to figure out my core!
Regarding integration and disintegration I (sadly) can relate to both types again. 😁
But yea, while it's pretty close, I'm sure there is a core type. It's just difficult to differentiate.

The other kinds of triads are something I haven't looked into yet though! But I will! Thanks for that information.

Also, another thing I have remembered: with my long-term therapist we have nailed down my (negative) core believes about myself and the world.

Those are:
1) Something is wrong with me. (4ish?)
2) I need to please everyone around me to be accepted and I'm not allowed to do any mistakes (because people will leave me then). (9ish?)
3) I need to be dramatic, so people bind themselves to me, do what I want and I don't lose them.
3) I am not safe/in safety (mentally, not physically)
4) It's my fault that my childhood was so horrible.

The order is correct. Maybe someone has some idea regarding them. Sad that we didn't figure out my positive believes lol.
 

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@letdown @Karkino @tanstaafl28

Thank you all for your ideas and your links and your information!
I wasn't able to see if I'm more 9 or more 4 yet, but maybe I'm just not able to at the moment. Maybe time will tell. I think my knowledge about the types would be enough to figure it out, but I feel like I can't see myself clearly yet.
4 and 9 are perhaps the most elusive types, IMHO. They are both withdrawal types and they tend to hide facets of themselves for very different reasons. Of the two, 4s tend to be more emotionally expressive (especially Sx), whereas 9s tend to be a lot more conflict avoidant. Given a good enough reason, a 4 will rival an 8 for absolute aggression and fierceness. It isn't their default, but it is definitely an aspect of being a 4. 4s tend to ball up in a dark room, or vomit expressions all over the place. There does not appear to be much in between. A 9 tends to fade into the woodwork unless cornered, then they can suddenly stand up and show their true anger. Also 4s are reactive types, whereas 9s are actually optimistic types. Also, another common misidentification for 9s is the other withdrawal type: 5. 9s can seem every bit as intellectual and knowledge-driven as 5s, again, the underlying motivations are very different.
 

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Something about those 4 core believes your therapist made you aware off.. Those seem familiar.
1) Something is wrong with me.
2) I need to please everyone around me to be accepted and I'm not allowed to do any mistakes (because people will leave me then).
3) I need to be dramatic, so people bind themselves to me, do what I want and I don't lose them.
3) I am not safe/in safety (mentally, not physically)
4) It's my fault that my childhood was so horrible.
If it were not for MBTI infj… What is your strongest and weaker, if you have any, MBTI letters? Mine is NF equally strong and ij weaker. No common psychologist would say I'm Introvert or Judging, id be "normal" by the big five, which got a 1 on 1 connection to 4 of the MBTI letters....

Those 4 points, reminds me of what is typical of ENFJs in enneagram, my the public stats of the enneagram-mbti. Types 3 or 6, pointing to 9 or those two? It's not that bad, our society is built around extroversion, and I'm a descendant of one of those people, that list reminds me of. If you are aware of it, great.

Also: there is a enneagram 4 INFJ video on youtube, by Carolyn Zaikowski dealing with merging:

That kind of empathic merging is not, I think, a 9 trait, it's an INFJ trait. By pure math it should be more prevalent among 4s than 9s. I do this as well, used to deal with it Spock style, shutting myself off in my head and deal with the word by logic and science, alone.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Something about those 4 core believes your therapist made you aware off.. Those seem familiar.

If it were not for MBTI infj… What is your strongest and weaker, if you have any, MBTI letters? Mine is NF equally strong and ij weaker. No common psychologist would say I'm Introvert or Judging, id be "normal" by the big five, which got a 1 on 1 connection to 4 of the MBTI letters....

Those 4 points, reminds me of what is typical of ENFJs in enneagram, my the public stats of the enneagram-mbti. Types 3 or 6, pointing to 9 or those two? It's not that bad, our society is built around extroversion, and I'm a descendant of one of those people, that list reminds me of. If you are aware of it, great.

Also: there is a enneagram 4 INFJ video on youtube, by Carolyn Zaikowski dealing with merging:

That kind of empathic merging is not, I think, a 9 trait, it's an INFJ trait. By pure math it should be more prevalent among 4s than 9s. I do this as well, used to deal with it Spock style, shutting myself off in my head and deal with the word by logic and science, alone.
I'm a very introverted person, I can't really see myself as extroverted or as using Fe. I'm very focused on my own inner world and the inner world of others, I don't like groups at all and avoid them and if I have to be in a group I usually pick out 1 or 2 other people and we are around each other then. I pretty strongly relate to Fi/Ne/Si and inferior Te.

I found the descriptions of Tom Condon, something new to think about, because before I focused on Beatrice Chestnut.

Deeply unhealthy Fours can inhabit a harrowing world of torment. They can be openly masochistic and extravagant in their self-debasement. The lives of spectacularly self-destructive artists often reflect this kind of scenario. At this stage, a Four could become unreachably alienated. Stricken by a profound sense of hopelessness, they can sink into morbid self-loathing or grow suicidally depressed. They see their differentness in entirely negative terms and banish themselves into a kind of exile. The desire to punish themselves and others is also determined and strong.
I relate to this a lot. As I said before, my arms are covered in scars, because I wanted to show that pain on the outside. Once I even cut a tree into my leg, made a picture, sent it to a friend and posted it on a self harm forum. I really thought of it as art. And I posted self harm pictures online all the time and stuff like that. No one could reach me, because I thought of myself as a punished, alienated thing. Just different, too sick, too broken. Done. And all that while still heavily criticising society and people and hating myself for everything I did. I saw myself as stuck in hell.

(Low side of connection to 2) brings dependency. Tendency to fixate on a loved one. Whiny demandingness and blame. Codependent melodrama when the real person behaves differently than the Four expects them to. Think they can't live without the other. Twoish capacity to empathize becomes compulsive. Four can't help but identify, especially with others' pain. Takes "beloved" person inside of their subjectivity, making that person their salvation. They may flee themselves by serving others. Prideful sense of specialness is also intensified. Hysterical illness possible.
Yes to everything. Codependency in a weird, dramatic way is/was my main issue in relationships. I'd go into full mentally ill broken emo mode if my partner doesn't do what I want him to do. I'd reason it with my soecialness (but I'm just so sick/broken...). I wanted my partners to save me from hell. And at my worst I make myself sick and ill.

The low side of this connection to 1 is that a Four can become faultfinding and nit-picky. Dissatisfied perfectionism may color their relationships. Get creatively blocked because nothing they produce is up to their own high standards. Induce shame in themselves with inner criticism. May tear down others out of jealousy. Sometimes latch onto a grandiose, obsessive Big Idea. Belief they are attuned to Absolute Truth. Idealistic and artistic pretentiousness possible. Sometimes can be rageful.
Yes. I want to get into art and being creative so much, but quickly stop all the time, because I feel like it's not good enough. Again, heavily criticised others, because they all seemedso fullfilled and happy. Especially with their advice to "just be happy, it's a choice". And I always had phases of big ideas, who I want to be and what I want to do and what life is all about. Then I crashed down to reality again.

While I still relate kinda to the descriptions of 9 he has (especially sx 9), I relate a lot more to the 4.

I think I will just keep this thread updated whenever I get some new ideas, descriptions, insights or whatever. As a journal and also, if anyone has ideas, of course feel free to participate. :)

Also: I mainly focus on very unhealthy descriptions of types, because for the most part of my life, I was close to as unhealthy as possible for my personality. While I still do have all these tendencies, I'm much more healthy now. But it's a lot about what I learned in therapy and what therapists teached me, so it's not really my own version of being healthy yet. I still have to find that. So while I don't act on those unhealthy impulses anymore, there now is a lack that still needs to be filled. It's a bit difficult when therapists tell you who you should be and it's kinda against your nature, but you also have to follow the advice, because you depend on them for now and because you were literally about to die, so better take some advice. But now I barely go to therapy anymore and will find my own way again. I think it was just very important to partly give up my self for some time, to gain some kind of base health. Even though I resisted it a lot! It took me years to do that and I was about to quit before finally committing to "Just do what the therapist does. At leat for some time (we agreed on one year, lol)". I call that moment the hardest, but also most important one of my life.

Oh, I also love with part of decribing the 4w5:

When they open up it can be sudden and total.
I'm usually closed off and withdrawn, but will feel this need to shoot everything outside every once in a while...

Anyway, it's an interesting mind game, but I'll still keep 9w1 in my profile. If I type as 4, I want to be sure, because it's so overtyped.
 
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