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from The Complete Enneagram: 27 Paths to Greater Self Knowledge
- "People can be intrusive and threatening to my personal comfort."
- "The world doesn't always provide what you need, so it pays to find ways to be self sufficient."
- "Others want more from me than I want to give."
- "I must protect my time and energy by having firm boundaries and maintaining my private space; otherwise, others will deplete me."
- "The emotional demands of others make on me will exhaust my inner resources and so should be avoided."
- "If I open up to relationships, others will expect and demand more than I have to give. Having too many relationships with the wrong kind of people leads to t he risk of feeling totally depleted."
- "Commitments are burdens that are too heavy to carry with me. It's best to travel light."
- "I am powerless when it comes to negotiating my needs and desires, and others may not listen anyway, so the safest course of action is to withdraw."
- "Overall, separation from others feels more comfortable than the alternative."
- "If I am spontaneous in my actions or feelings, others will disapprove, I will feel embarrassed or I will feel out of control or expose myself in a way that seems intolerable."
- "It's better and safer to feel my emotions when I am by myself (and not when I am in the presence of others)."
- "Knowledge is power."
- Knowledge is best attained through observation, research and the collection and comparison of data".
 

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I have a few "feel" miffs with some of these.

The wording on several of these antagonizes people far more than I do. I don't blame the government for giving me taxes, as if it's just being a dick about things. Likewise, I don't blame people for my own emotional and mental depletion.

I would also switch knowledge out for wisdom. Knowledge has a more science/evidence tone, and more often than not that shit's just worthless, exhausting faffery. Give me malleable theories I can actually use in life!


Other than that, personal execution is basically the same. Even if the wording of the beliefs are a little different.



MVP award goes to : "Commitments are burdens that are too heavy to carry with me. It's best to travel light." (Even though I like the idea of a solid relationship.)
 

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I'm not saying I'm a 5 or nothing (there are many who'd argue I am). I'm just commenting.

- "People can be intrusive and threatening to my personal comfort."
Meh. Can be.

- "The world doesn't always provide what you need, so it pays to find ways to be self sufficient."
Well, no one's ever provided for me. I basically raised myself. Yep.

- "Others want more from me than I want to give."
No. Others don't want anything from me.

- "I must protect my time and energy by having firm boundaries and maintaining my private space; otherwise, others will deplete me."
I said earlier, I don't relate to feelings of being depleted by others. Or I traditionally haven't. Chronic illness has changed the picture.

- "The emotional demands of others make on me will exhaust my inner resources and so should be avoided."
No.

- "If I open up to relationships, others will expect and demand more than I have to give. Having too many relationships with the wrong kind of people leads to t he risk of feeling totally depleted."
I just don't relate.

- "Commitments are burdens that are too heavy to carry with me. It's best to travel light."
I hate commitments. They ARE burdens. So is Stuff. Mind you, I live out of a suitcase and have for about the last 15 years.

- "I am powerless when it comes to negotiating my needs and desires, and others may not listen anyway, so the safest course of action is to withdraw."
For the better part of my life, yes. I've been ignored and neglected. And sometimes rejected. Better just to take care of things myself. Alone. Fine.

- "Overall, separation from others feels more comfortable than the alternative."
Sometimes. It certainly does right now.

- "If I am spontaneous in my actions or feelings, others will disapprove, I will feel embarrassed or I will feel out of control or expose myself in a way that seems intolerable."
Meh

- "It's better and safer to feel my emotions when I am by myself (and not when I am in the presence of others)."
Yeah, kind of. And sometimes not.

- "Knowledge is power."
I thought power was power. Knowledge is one form of it.

- Knowledge is best attained through observation, research and the collection and comparison of data".
I guess so. I mean, what else would it be?
 

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@Animal @Chesire Tower another type which seemed likely, let's see...
Feeling disgustingly attention grabbing at this point, sigh.

- "People can be intrusive and threatening to my personal comfort."
Yes, I often see people as a whole as intruders. I like being by my own, to filter the world out and just be one with my thoughts, feelings, perceptions, ideas and anything that plays into my head and I often dread having to interact with people. Small talk is intrusive and pointless, at times I even get drained by the internet. Even by the ones I love. "Just because I don't say anything, doesn't mean I don't like you."

- "The world doesn't always provide what you need, so it pays to find ways to be self sufficient."
The world never gave me anything, shallow things and prized possession perhaps but I was never emotionally spoiled. If anything the world gave me nothing but a handful of crap so I had to be self sufficient all the time although I admit I have attachment issues when it comes to very close bonds. I just try killing that need.

- "Others want more from me than I want to give."
Yes. Others always wanted more than I could or wanted to give, always trying to take, take, take yet even when I attempted the impossible for whatever reason it was never enough. Never what they wanted. I was never what they wanted unless they squeezed everything I am out of me and then more and yet never understood... I'm a low energy person, I don't know how to console you but I understand deeply. I always try to. I connect through my own deepest personal experience. But I can't give more than I can afford, I drain easily.

- "I must protect my time and energy by having firm boundaries and maintaining my private space; otherwise, others will deplete me."
Yes. I've always feared having my own boundaries broken or my private bubble taken away and invaded as I'm not a particularly assertive person most of the time and I tend to keep to myself. But I really need my own private space and to be the master of my time and resources, I can't really fit snugly in someone else's plan or have them invade my own space.

- "The emotional demands of others make on me will exhaust my inner resources and so should be avoided."
Yes and no. I'm a feeler, I'm comfortable with deep emotions and I empathize on a personal level but I'd rather not vocalize nor express feelings as I bury all my emo inside of me. I can't extrovert them and being swarmed by other people's feelings often leaves me tired and exhausted because it's way more than I can deal with and I don't even know what to say and how to give advice. I can't. Other than bonding and connecting and feeling, I can't do much and I've got my own to focus on. But if I love someone I'll try to emotionally understand, eat their anger and heal them as much as I can, it's just that I'm often unable to. It's depressing.

- "If I open up to relationships, others will expect and demand more than I have to give. Having too many relationships with the wrong kind of people leads to t he risk of feeling totally depleted."
I've been in so many bad relationships, although I've had a huge deal of fault too, for not recognizing them and for my behavior in general as I think that those who just blame ex friends and lovers "for being crazy" aren't really being honest with themselves. There's always a reason. But yes, they deplete them and yet while I step out, I can never completely let go, especially not after a short time and even when years have passed and I'm oceans apart from those, the memory remains. Memory always helps. They destroy you and they teach you something valuable, they bleed in the right way and can evolve in so many ways albeit not always the one I want and/or need.

- "Commitments are burdens that are too heavy to carry with me. It's best to travel light."
I hardly commit to anything, it makes me feel suffocated, it weighs me down, it traps me and slows me. When I do it's truly special and meant not to end although I've flaked when I felt it wasn't right for me, it would never lead anywhere, it wasn't authentic enough, it wasn't what it seemed or my discomfort was too high. But if I commit, I'll try at my best to stick with it through thick and thin, therefore I hardly commit for this reason.

- "I am powerless when it comes to negotiating my needs and desires, and others may not listen anyway, so the safest course of action is to withdraw."
I have my own needs, I'm very focused on my own comfort, I know what I desire but I cannot express it properly. I have a hard time enough doing so with the ones I care about, despite being very stubborn and self-focused, so they step all over me and all I can do is bearing it and avoiding it the next time by keeping to myself, fulfilling them on my own. Maybe excessively so in retaliation with the consequent punishment.

- "Overall, separation from others feels more comfortable than the alternative."
I have massive abandonment/rejection/attachment issues and I feel hurt deeply by any of those happening, as well as being misunderstood, misread and mislead by someone close to me. I try to rationalize them, I try to hold on but most times I run away before it can happen. I block, I avoid, I cut them off my life, I disappear and I feel like utter crap because it's the last thing I want. I keep waiting for a return while not wanting it if things are unresolved, I have my anger and my boundaries too albeit I just slide out the picture and angst my days away.

- "If I am spontaneous in my actions or feelings, others will disapprove, I will feel embarrassed or I will feel out of control or expose myself in a way that seems intolerable."
Hate feeling out of control, I have a bit of social anxiety not in terms that I care about judgment rather than people overwhelm me easily albeit I filter them out. I'm not sure about spontaneous, I can be perceived as dauntless or excruciatingly passive and hesitant, I suppose it's a bit of both but I spend an ungodly amount of time ruminating things in my head before doing them.

- "It's better and safer to feel my emotions when I am by myself (and not when I am in the presence of others)."
Absolutely. I'm very private with my emotions and they run very deep.

- "Knowledge is power."
Absolutely. Knowledge of any kind, even the most trivial trivia can turn out to be handy at some point.
Besides learning is a pleasure, even just learning for the sake of it.

- Knowledge is best attained through observation, research and the collection and comparison of data".
As well as reading, debating, creating, seeking and analyzing.
 

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- "People can be intrusive and threatening to my personal comfort."
Yes they can. I'm pretty introverted.

- "The world doesn't always provide what you need, so it pays to find ways to be self sufficient."
I agree...but it's not a core fixation in my mind. Really, I jut prefer to be allowed to do what I please, which is a perk of self-sufficiency.

- "Others want more from me than I want to give."
Eh, I don't know. People don't ask for much from me, personally.

- "I must protect my time and energy by having firm boundaries and maintaining my private space; otherwise, others will deplete me."
I should....but I'm bad at it. It hasn't been much of an option for me for a fair portion of life - not getting the boundaries I want and such.

- "The emotional demands of others make on me will exhaust my inner resources and so should be avoided."
Yes. I simply agree with this. Most of the time. This only changes for people I care about; anyone else, no. If I once cared and you pushed me to my breaking point, then fuck you.

- "If I open up to relationships, others will expect and demand more than I have to give. Having too many relationships with the wrong kind of people leads to the risk of feeling totally depleted."
I'm not sure what to say here. I don't have that many relationships. I'm too picky about the people I get close to (that's why there aren't that many). I'm not sure about the "demand more than I can give". I worry that in relationships I take too much and don't give enough. I'm too insular....maybe too needy?

- "Commitments are burdens that are too heavy to carry with me. It's best to travel light."
Meh, I don't really subscribe to this. I know I'm completely not Fivelike regarding material things - ownership is security, in a way. As far as commitments to people....is that why I just ignore people so much? To avoid attachment? I don't know.

- "I am powerless when it comes to negotiating my needs and desires, and others may not listen anyway, so the safest course of action is to withdraw."
Yes. Lots of yes.

- "Overall, separation from others feels more comfortable than the alternative."
Yes, it does. Also might just be an introvert thing...

- "If I am spontaneous in my actions or feelings, others will disapprove, I will feel embarrassed or I will feel out of control or expose myself in a way that seems intolerable."
YES. This is something I was getting at in the Embarrassment about Emotions thread. That feeling of exposure that follows something that seems so out of control to oneself.

- "It's better and safer to feel my emotions when I am by myself (and not when I am in the presence of others)."
Yes it is. I feel them like hell, but it's most comfortable alone. Even when I was younger I didn't like getting emotional in front of people. It still happened, and was kept brief, but I didn't like it.

- "Knowledge is power."
Well duh. :wink: I used to have a username that translated as "knowledge is everything", so this isn't too much of a stretch.

- Knowledge is best attained through observation, research and the collection and comparison of data".
I guess so...but experience can help too, and be more fun.
 

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1. People can be intrusive and threatening to my personal comfort.
1a. Yes. People can only be intrusive and threatening. I don’t always mind intrusions, but it’s never not an intrusion.

2. The world doesn't always provide what you need, so it pays to find ways to be self sufficient.
2a. The world does provide what we need, it just isn’t usually the what we want.

3. Others want more from me than I want to give.
3a. Yes. Always more than I want, not always more than I’m willing, but...
3b. ...honesty requires admitting sometimes what people want from me is my absence.

4. I must protect my time and energy by having firm boundaries and maintaining my private space; otherwise, others will deplete me.
4a. Always true. Though ‘protecting’ at times can slip into ‘assaulting’.

5. The emotional demands of others make on me will exhaust my inner resources and so should be avoided.

5a. True, but ‘monitored’ might be a better outlook than ‘avoided’.

6-1 If I open up to relationships, others will expect and demand more than I have to give...
6-1a. Wording: ‘can expect’ vs ‘will expect’.

6-2 ...Having too many relationships with the wrong kind of people leads to the risk of feeling totally depleted.
6-2a. Silly. Having any relationships with 'wrong kinds of people' is a mistake.

7. Commitments are burdens that are too heavy to carry with me. It's best to travel light.
7a. Wording: ‘can be’ instead of ‘are’.

8. I am powerless when it comes to negotiating my needs and desires, and others may not listen anyway, so the safest course of action is to withdraw.
8a. See 6-2a

9. Overall, separation from others feels more comfortable than the alternative.
9a. Yes, but only ‘overall’.

10. If I am spontaneous in my actions or feelings, others will disapprove, I will feel embarrassed or I will feel out of control or expose myself in a way that seems intolerable.
10a. Kinda. I think ‘rejected’, ‘invalidated’, or 'judged' are higher up the list than ‘embarrassed’, ‘out of control’, or 'exposed'.

11. It's better and safer to feel my emotions when I am by myself (and not when I am in the presence of others).
11a. Yes, but with the understanding there are exceptions.

12. Knowledge is power.
12a. How can this not be completely true?

13. Knowledge is best attained through observation, research and the collection and comparison of data.
13a. Yes. Seems self-evident.
 

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I relate specially to these ones:

- "People can be intrusive and threatening to my personal comfort."
- "I must protect my time and energy by having firm boundaries and maintaining my private space; otherwise, others will deplete me."
- "If I am spontaneous in my actions or feelings, others will disapprove, I will feel embarrassed or I will feel out of control or expose myself in a way that seems intolerable".
" Knowledge is best attained through observation, research and the collection and comparison of data".
 

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11. It's better and safer to feel my emotions when I am by myself (and not when I am in the presence of others).
11a. Yes, but with the understanding there are exceptions.
5s like any other type can and may feel comfortable feeling their emotions DIRECTLY in the presence of others, in certain cases but to actually PREFER it, is extremely rare. Only the very healthiest of 5s don't feel intensely anxious if they are unable to preview and pre-screen their emotions - particularly any intense and especially THREATENING feelings away from others. This is less about vulnerability and more about fearing being undone by them - thereby, losing their primary mode of defence, which is to initially detach.

- "Knowledge is power."
Absolutely. Knowledge of any kind, even the most trivial trivia can turn out to be handy at some point.
Besides learning is a pleasure, even just learning for the sake of it.
To a 5, knowledge is less about pleasure although it can be experienced as such; it is more of a compulsion: 5s have to have information; they HAVE to know. Acquiring knowledge is the 5s primary way of functioning in the world. Without their ability to find and collect knowledge, a 5 is totally lost.
 

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To a 5, knowledge is less about pleasure although it can be experienced as such; it is more of a compulsion: 5s have to have information; they HAVE to know. Acquiring knowledge is the 5s primary way of functioning in the world. Without their ability to find and collect knowledge, a 5 is totally lost.
In my case it's both, I love learning, discerning and acquiring new data that I'll filter through my own views and store for later use but it's also a need and a compulsion since I need to research something before being able to discuss it. When I'm unable to (*shakes fist at portable wifi*) or I let my Fi take the wheel, I often feel unsatisfied as a thousand more better arguments pop in my mind and I feel the need to know more before stating something as fact, unless I'm going for a personal moral opinion on something. Part of why I keep editing my posts, they're never good enough nor complete and I hate making fallacies.

Learning is also a pleasure to me, I've noticed I recharge through taking time off to pursue my interests and learn and I get insanely drained when it comes to extensive socializing and outward personal feelings discussions although they can serve their purpose.
 

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The Complete Enneagram: 27 Paths to Greater Self Knowledge

Going by this I must really be a type 5.

- "People can be intrusive and threatening to my personal comfort."

Yes. Almost always. I find seclusion whenever possible.

- "The world doesn't always provide what you need, so it pays to find ways to be self sufficient."

Absolutely. Self sufficiency is one thing I've always worked on heavily and am now looking at turning it into a career.

- "Others want more from me than I want to give."

Yes. I feel drained, resentful and put upon in relationships at times. The things people want to give me aren't usually things I value. Like hugs or kind words etc. Those things mean little to me.

- "I must protect my time and energy by having firm boundaries and maintaining my private space; otherwise, others will deplete me."

I often feel like it's a battle to keep others out of my personal space and it's what I fear the most whenever others approach me.

- "The emotional demands of others make on me will exhaust my inner resources and so should be avoided."

Never really thought this out loud before but yes there is a lot of inner sighing when someone is emoting on my watch, I'm like....wth, I've no idea what to do here. And sometimes I get a bit angry inside with them for imposing this on me.

- "If I open up to relationships, others will expect and demand more than I have to give. Having too many relationships with the wrong kind of people leads to t he risk of feeling totally depleted."

Yes absolutely. I even have trouble with basic friendships because of the dreaded favour asking that will inevitably follow in the footsteps of any kind of relationship. I rarely ask for favours but I know other people have no compunction not only asking for them but expecting them on a regular basis. I just don't want to deal with it.

- "Commitments are burdens that are too heavy to carry with me. It's best to travel light."

Now this is ringing huge alarm bells with me. I've run into the curious paradox of wanting certain things but being so unable to commit to them that I just can't get what I want. And I always feel relieved not frustrated when I run away from commitment. Although I want to find a place to put down roots I habitually move and refuse to do so. It's so weird and yet makes so much sense in light of this statement.

- "I am powerless when it comes to negotiating my needs and desires, and others may not listen anyway, so the safest course of action is to withdraw."

Yes. I have to agree with this one. I hate the fact that I avoid conflict and can't negotiate for what I want. I have a deadly fear of it and usually get around feeling disappointed that I lack this essential skill in life.

- "Overall, separation from others feels more comfortable than the alternative."

Yes.

- "If I am spontaneous in my actions or feelings, others will disapprove, I will feel embarrassed or I will feel out of control or expose myself in a way that seems intolerable."

Yes.

- "It's better and safer to feel my emotions when I am by myself (and not when I am in the presence of others)."

Yes.

- "Knowledge is power."

Only if it's practical knowledge. I mean knowing how the Hadron Collider works isn't something that will help me provide for myself in life so why bother with it. I'm pragmatic and always seek knowledge that has a practical application in my life as well.

- Knowledge is best attained through observation, research and the collection and comparison of data".[/I][/QUOTE]

Meh. Yes and no. Most practical knowledge is obtained by putting that data into practice. Not sitting around with it in your head doing nothing.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
To a Social 5, knowledge is less about pleasure although it can be experienced as such; it is more of a compulsion: Social 5s have to have information; they HAVE to know. Acquiring knowledge is the 5s primary way of functioning in the world. Without their ability to find and collect knowledge, a Social 5 is totally lost.
fixed. knowledge hoarding is only one manifestation of avarice, and the preferred method for the Social 5. most 5s are somewhat intellectual/knowledge seeking, but it only the Social 5 for whom it is compulsive
 

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fixed. knowledge hoarding is only one manifestation of avarice, and the preferred method for the Social 5. most 5s are somewhat intellectual/knowledge seeking, but it only the Social 5 for whom it is compulsive
I don't doubt it looks different for different 5's, but I don't think it's only compulsive for the social 5. In my own experience, it is a compulsion I've struggled with and I'm certain I'm not social first. Manifestations will certainly vary though.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I don't doubt it looks different for different 5's, but I don't think it's only compulsive for the social 5. In my own experience, it is a compulsion I've struggled with and I'm certain I'm not social first. Manifestations will certainly vary though.
according to Beatrice Chestnut and Naranjo, knowledge hoarding/expertise is the trademark of Social 5. Self Preservation 5 hoards physical resources and is the most reclusive while Sexual 5 is the romantic 5.
 

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according to Beatrice Chestnut and Naranjo, knowledge hoarding/expertise is the trademark of Social 5. Self Preservation 5 hoards physical resources and is the most reclusive while Sexual 5 is the romantic 5.
I don't disagree with that, but I think it's overly simplistic to say "it only the Social 5 for whom it is compulsive". I find I have compulsions related to all 3 instincts in varying degrees. Especially in different arena's of my life.
 

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@Swordsman of Mana, I tend to agree with @sleepyhead on this. I think that you are being unnecessarily reductive and nitpicky about the various subtypes.
 

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you can think what you like, but my views are backed by credible descriptions
While I am definitely a fan of Chesnut's; these description are based on Naranjo's subtypes and in other sources I've read, they are far less limiting than hers. All 5 have a compulsion for hoarding knowledge as @sleepyhead and I venture to suggest, the majority of 5s; the subtypes only reflect how this is utilized. Like her, I am too obsessed with knowledge and understanding except that I also hoard time, space and the flow of information over needing to be perceived as an expert on anything. I am very cut off from the external world: SO; which is what @Flatlander made me realize when he clarified my mistyping as an SO and correctly typed me as an SP 5.

FWIW, the most "credible" of descriptions don't mean squat if you interpret them too literally.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
While I am definitely a fan of Chesnut's; these description are based on Naranjo's subtypes and in other sources I've read, they are far less limiting than hers. All 5 have a compulsion for hoarding knowledge as @sleepyhead and I venture to suggest, the majority of 5s; the subtypes only reflect how this is utilized. Like her, I am too obsessed with knowledge and understanding except that I also hoard time, space and the flow of information over needing to be perceived as an expert on anything. I am very cut off from the external world: SO; which is what @Flatlander made me realize when he clarified my mistyping as an SO and correctly typed me as an SP 5.
I think you might be confusing the Ni/Ti compulsion for knowledge acquisition (INFJ) with the Social 5 compulsion for knowledge, which is more rooted in specialization and being of use to a niche of people around which they build their bubble. while Self Preservation 5s are observant and plenty intelligent, they are practical people and more concerned with more leveraged knowledge which can aid in survival/acquisition/conservation. while I'm not saying being INFJ would make it impossible for you to be Sp 5, it does tend to correlate more with TJ types.

FWIW, the most "credible" of descriptions don't mean squat if you interpret them too literally
I am critiquing based on a core characteristic of Social 5s, not making a literal, behavior based interpretation.
 
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