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I've done this recently. I thought I could play the "open-minded" person who accepts a variety of viewpoints, but at the end of the day, I can't. I really can't.

It makes me angry to even think about this situation. Like how can someone be so stupid lol. Or maybe this guy who used to be my friend isn't entirely stupid, but his political views were stupid and harmful for sure and I couldn't let it go.

I can't stand it when you (and multiple people) explain to someone from A to Z how their views are wrong, distorted and based on crap logic/fake news, yet this person keeps clinging to this stupid opinion with blind faith. It's just... ugh. I wouldn't be so annoyed if their stupid views didn't affect others, but they do.

INFJs, have you ever decided to cut ties with someone due to political or ideological conflicts?
 

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It’s just politics. We can still be friends.
Would you be friends with a neo-nazi? At which point do we draw the line between "nah, it's just politics" and "this is an unacceptable belief system?"
 

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I'm curious to see what @UraniaIsis would say about this. If I'm not mistaken, she was the INFJ who wrote something here years ago about cutting ties with Trump voters. If I'm mistaking you for another person, I apologize.
 

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I'm curious to see what @UraniaIsis would say about this. If I'm not mistaken, she was the INFJ who wrote something here years ago about cutting ties with Trump voters. If I'm mistaking you for another person, I apologize.
I believe you may have me mistaken for someone else. But no problem. I hadn't been on here since the last few months of the Obama administration up until about a month ago.

Although since I am here, my two cents on the matter is that I just let the person go down with their own ship. who knows, maybe it's my ship that's sinking. I try to be open-minded as well. I'll tolerate hearing them out. Walk away if they don't want to elaborate on their thought process and just seem to want to pick a fight and I'll try to keep voting as informed as possible. But at some point even if the person might be "technically" correct about a certain factor or concern within the political circus, my personal sentiments and anticipation to the wild card of human behavior may override any technical truths. Not because I doubt, don't want to hear, or don't believe those potential truths--in fact, quite the opposite; it's just the manner of executing that change and how to corral people in a more productive direction. Something hard to do with personal prejudices. You vote your way, I'll vote mine. The common mentality will win out and the lessers of both sides will incessantly harass, mock, and insult each other instead of bothering to improve imperfections within the system.

For example, the neo-nazi. I'll hear them out. They will be right to have pride in themselves. But my personal sentiments to their personal (and often violent) prejudices would make me nope out of that interaction as soon as possible. I've met some Trump supporters that have good intentions, but see him in a far more flattering light than he has earned and deserves. A lot of political figures on both sides have me contemplating their replacements.
 

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I've done this recently. I thought I could play the "open-minded" person who accepts a variety of viewpoints, but at the end of the day, I can't. I really can't.

It makes me angry to even think about this situation. Like how can someone be so stupid lol. Or maybe this guy who used to be my friend isn't entirely stupid, but his political views were stupid and harmful for sure and I couldn't let it go.

I can't stand it when you (and multiple people) explain to someone from A to Z how their views are wrong, distorted and based on crap logic/fake news, yet this person keeps clinging to this stupid opinion with blind faith. It's just... ugh. I wouldn't be so annoyed if their stupid views didn't affect others, but they do.

INFJs, have you ever decided to cut ties with someone due to political or ideological conflicts?
In a post modern world all views are equally valid. As an empirical scientist I'm kind of annoyed at post modernism but there ain't nobody who listens to objective reasoning anymore. For instance I get accused of being evil for questioning the validity of a supposedly scientific discipline who's key supporters claim that their theory is proven, thus demonstrating that they are scientifically illiterate since the scientific method states that a theory can only be disproven, not proven. So the question is why do you think your opinion is the correct one? Is it based on objective reasoning or is it based on the subjective reason of believing one side is superior to the other?

Of course once you go down this rabbit hole it eventually leads to the discovery that we are all equal because we are all flawed. So should you reject people for having flaws, especially when that can lead to more extreme views? Normally I prefer to judge that on the basis of a person's actions and how they treat others. But naturally everyone has their limits.
 

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Would you be friends with a neo-nazi? At which point do we draw the line between "nah, it's just politics" and "this is an unacceptable belief system?"
I was thinking in terms of conventional politics. I have no personal experience with Nazi’s, Communists, Anarchists, etc. Geez, I don’t know if it’s possible for me to be in a situation where a true friend of mine, I’m an introvert with only a few, could harbor the prerequisite attitudes for being a Neo-Nazi without my detection so they could beCome my friend in the first place. At least I hope none of my friends are secretly on the fringe of society.

I’m sorry if it seems I dismissed your question. We’re coming up on a hotly contested election in the USA, and I was thinking in those terms. Follow your heart. I’m sorry that you are in that position with your friend.
 

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Cut off a person and you lead them to just radicalizing more.

Nope, nope, nope. Let's end the polarization, not increase it by reducing people to their politics.

As far as Neo-Nazis (and Antifa, to pick on both sides) goes....this guy was hero, and nothing stops you from doing the same:
 

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This one ENFP girl’s perspective:

Shared values are very important to me in close friendships, in some families you have to put up with it. But I make my views known. I don’t allow my dad or my in-laws to talk with prejudice Around me or my children without me standing up for people. This is deeply important to me and I don’t care if I ruin a party to voice my positivity about any group. That’s USUALLY how it happens. Father in law starts cutting down black males and I say loudly “What you’re saying is not true. There is nothing wrong with black men.” I will not allow for those thoughts to continue. If it persists I will leave and I will say why I am leaving. I will talk to my children in the car about never allowing people to be hurt. I feel those echos around me going out into the world and creating spears and arrowheads and hedges and policemen sitting on men’s necks for no reason and other men shooting 17 year olds for walking down a street listening to music in their hoodie.

I have made a vow to myself to never allow it around me without my speaking out even when with family and they just have to accept this about me. After a while they MOsTLY stopped talking like that around me, except that they are the kind of racist who don’t think they are racist so they slip up a LOT. I make sure my kids understand it as far as I understand it. And I am not perfect and hate that anything I would also not understand can hurt others. But so it is. All I can do is try my best to be as educated about prejudice and it’s effects as possible and to put myself into other people’s shoes.

With friendships I would cut them out in a heartbeat if there is racism. More precisely, I would have screened and analyzed these things extensively before I ever got close to them and then taken steps back from acquaintances when racism was found. There is no way I would get close to someone without screening for this. In fact, bonding with friends usually has to do with finding closely shared values. Although people have the privilege of changing.

I did cut ties with a close long-term friend when she became prejudiced about my religious beliefs. She had not been prejudiced for the first 12 years of our friendship and we had started out with the same religious background. I have been through a lot of personal and family trauma due to my beliefs, the last thing I needed was a person who I chose to spend time with also prejudiced. The problem with prejudice is that instead of seeing me as an individual, all of a sudden I am part of a group mind-set. I do not identify much with any stereotypes inside mY religion and I don’t merge individuals into groups myself— my brain just doesn’t. So rationalizing my behavior as being for any reason except my own individual reasons and beliefs doesn’t work. She is still on my phone but I stopped contacting her after I made it clear that I wouldn’t put up with religious prejudice.

Man I need to write some lighter threads.... I guess I’m writing my boundaries lately.

anyway, just for a foil.... and some other ENFPs might write about it more lightly, but I think in general we are pretty choosy about friends’ morals and I think we have to be with the way our personalities work. But echo chambers aren’t good either, are they? But I think people can have differences in attitude and background and still know and understand the wrongs of prejudice...
 

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This thread took a turn. I was answering based on politics, namely 2 party politics. I tend to think extremes of any type is ridiculous. I have friends on both sides, they all irritate me when they get going on their opinions. This is why I stay off of FB (among other reasons). I get annoyed that people think it's so black & white. It's so extremely narrow-minded to me. But they are still my friends, and they have many other qualities about them I obviously like. So I choose to ignore the side of them I think is stupid (I don't know how else to say that) & focus on the parts I like.

Now in regards to racism- no go. I'm with @Llyralen & @Ice Cream Man in that I don't have any friends that are that extreme, that I know of. If so, they would not be my friends.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
This one ENFP girl’s perspective:

Shared values are very important to me in close friendships, in some families you have to put up with it. But I make my views known. I don’t allow my dad or my in-laws to talk with prejudice Around me or my children without me standing up for people. This is deeply important to me and I don’t care if I ruin a party to voice my positivity about any group. That’s USUALLY how it happens. Father in law starts cutting down black males and I say loudly “What you’re saying is not true. There is nothing wrong with black men.” I will not allow for those thoughts to continue. If it persists I will leave and I will say why I am leaving. I will talk to my children in the car about never allowing people to be hurt. I feel those echos around me going out into the world and creating spears and arrowheads and hedges and policemen sitting on men’s necks for no reason and other men shooting 17 year olds for walking down a street listening to music in their hoodie.

I have made a vow to myself to never allow it around me without my speaking out even when with family and they just have to accept this about me. After a while they MOsTLY stopped talking like that around me, except that they are the kind of racist who don’t think they are racist so they slip up a LOT. I make sure my kids understand it as far as I understand it. And I am not perfect and hate that anything I would also not understand can hurt others. But so it is. All I can do is try my best to be as educated about prejudice and it’s effects as possible and to put myself into other people’s shoes.

With friendships I would cut them out in a heartbeat if there is racism. More precisely, I would have screened and analyzed these things extensively before I ever got close to them and then taken steps back from acquaintances when racism was found. There is no way I would get close to someone without screening for this. In fact, bonding with friends usually has to do with finding closely shared values. Although people have the privilege of changing.

I did cut ties with a close long-term friend when she became prejudiced about my religious beliefs. She had not been prejudiced for the first 12 years of our friendship and we had started out with the same religious background. I have been through a lot of personal and family trauma due to my beliefs, the last thing I needed was a person who I chose to spend time with also prejudiced. The problem with prejudice is that instead of seeing me as an individual, all of a sudden I am part of a group mind-set. I do not identify much with any stereotypes inside mY religion and I don’t merge individuals into groups myself— my brain just doesn’t. So rationalizing my behavior as being for any reason except my own individual reasons and beliefs doesn’t work. She is still on my phone but I stopped contacting her after I made it clear that I wouldn’t put up with religious prejudice.

Man I need to write some lighter threads.... I guess I’m writing my boundaries lately.

anyway, just for a foil.... and some other ENFPs might write about it more lightly, but I think in general we are pretty choosy about friends’ morals and I think we have to be with the way our personalities work. But echo chambers aren’t good either, are they? But I think people can have differences in attitude and background and still know and understand the wrongs of prejudice...
Interestingly, we have more or less the same ideas and limits when it comes to political disagreements (from what you described and all). I tolerate a lot from my family. You know, family is family, you are tied to these people anyhow so I wouldn't easily cut ties 100% with someone from my family just because they happen to have some views I see as dumb. I will make it very clear I disagree with them, I will make it clear I won't let their distorted values be imposed on me, but I'm not necessarily cutting out 100% a family member from my life because of this.

Now, when it comes to friendships I'm MUCH more selective. As you said, the advantage of friendships is: you get to choose people with similar values to yours. You can't make this choice when it comes to family members, but you can make this choice when it comes to friendships.

I won't get into very specific details, but there's a lot of political turmoil happening in my country right now. This dude I used to be friends with started to share idiotic and harmful beliefs about COVID-19: claiming it is a fake virus, a scam, claiming it is a plot created by China to destroy the world's economy, and just spreading a s***ton of fake news on his social media in general. It made me annoyed because it is not just some harmless behavior; we are talking about human lives here, and I couldn't believe somebody could be so stupid and irresponsible. I knew we had political disagreements and all (and I tolerated most of his political views before this event), but all the lying and lack of responsibility that came with his obsession for COVID-19 was the last straw for me. I just cut the dude out of my life. I think he is delusional and refuses to see reality, which is something I find awfully hard to tolerate.
 
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@Aiwass. In many ways the principal behind the action to cut someone out for spreading harmful information is the same as with prejudice. It’s the question or criteria “Are they harming others?” that fuels the response headed by voicing opposition and looking for change as a reaction and then “goodbye.” if needed.
 
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Discussion Starter #14
Cut off a person and you lead them to just radicalizing more.

Nope, nope, nope. Let's end the polarization, not increase it by reducing people to their politics.

As far as Neo-Nazis (and Antifa, to pick on both sides) goes....this guy was hero, and nothing stops you from doing the same:
I genuinely appreciated the video. Thanks for sharing. It is something that will stay with me for a long time, for sure. It touched me.

I gotta ask, are you a 9? I generally find that 9s are the ones promoting unity and this "let's all talk with each other and understand each other" argument, but unfortunately, I don't think this is always possible.

The KKK guy from the video clearly had the potential to change. He was open-minded enough to change his views over time through having an unique friendship with that black dude. Unfortunately, not all people are like this. Many people will cling to hatred and prejudice no matter what, many people are devoid from this potential to change their harmful views (even if you try to start a dialogue).

Trying to sympathize with these people and create a dialogue with them is not always the best idea. Sometimes they're just genuinely bad, toxic elements that should be cut out from your life if you want it free from their influence. Sometimes people will resist change at all costs and trying to convince them of something else is like playing tennis with yourself; the other side is simply not present.

So I guess we should make a distinction between political radicals who show some potential to change and political radicals who don't have this potential at all and will die believing in what they believe in. Doing this is very important, because I don't want to waste my time trying to change someone who has their worldview set in stone.
 
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Political or ideological disagreements.

I dont cut them off. But they will cut themselves off of me, sure. To me, all of the wellrounded perspectives about lifemanagement is like a grenade explosion in slowmotion. If we take off that pin, and release, it will blow.

But racism based on skin color. Or height. Or stuff we can no alter, no. There are things like a person is the outcome of that persons environment and the personality and the such, which count. But there is a line drawn in the sand for certain about limits. Dos and do nots. What Im interested in, is how narrowing ones tolerance for own fluctuations impacts so much outcome over life and so forth.

Some of you believe of people changing. Learning the lesson and evolving. IME that is so rare, its almost like a universal law that it wont happen than that it will. So Ive started to accept it and reduced growing up adult human beings that refuse to want to get their heads outside of a quite a blank box.

Prejudice. That is a big theme. Its labelling and precooked intolerance. And a somesort of closet mindness too. Yet, I would argue that there is a level of depth, where prejudice based on patterns work. And that is based on ones genetics.

The nature, its so powerful, that even if sosialization does create results, especially the collective social compression part of it, but on one lovely or not so lovely day, the moral or the immoral shall arise and when the true colours come out, they will ALWAYS align with genetics. Perfectly. No matter how totalitarian the disintegration from the own self would be, the nature will always have its wiring expressed accordingly. And that is something I rely my prejudism upon.

The issue of harming others is such a great example of what to use as an indicator of quality management. But if we dive deeper into the realm of pain and lessoning, and take a universal, timeless perspective to it, then most certainly being hurt by a violent pull from a friend for walking in front of a highspeed incoming car can be better than getting killed out of habituational ignorance.

Also, being in contact with conflict will grow us as persons, as it will reflect to us what our weaknesses or envied strengths are and how to deal with it all step by step, over these decades here called a human life.

I think that usually, we are set in inside these revolving scenarios where the same screenplay is repeating itself, until we learn - or the time runs out. Pedagody.

But that is already exiting the fake self, and the fake esteem, and most of all, the fake comfort zone.

So, as someone said here on Personality Cafe, in the post modernism, everything is equal. While the absurdity of that sums and wraps it all in the new era of 20s, IMHO. And this confusion, is what shall pull the plug of the bath tub.

Insane to debate with insanity. Especially shallow insanity.
 

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Interestingly, we have more or less the same ideas and limits when it comes to political disagreements (from what you described and all). I tolerate a lot from my family. You know, family is family, you are tied to these people anyhow so I wouldn't easily cut ties 100% with someone from my family just because they happen to have some views I see as dumb. I will make it very clear I disagree with them, I will make it clear I won't let their distorted values be imposed on me, but I'm not necessarily cutting out 100% a family member from my life because of this.

Now, when it comes to friendships I'm MUCH more selective. As you said, the advantage of friendships is: you get to choose people with similar values to yours. You can't make this choice when it comes to family members, but you can make this choice when it comes to friendships.

I won't get into very specific details, but there's a lot of political turmoil happening in my country right now. This dude I used to be friends with started to share idiotic and harmful beliefs about COVID-19: claiming it is a fake virus, a scam, claiming it is a plot created by China to destroy the world's economy, and just spreading a s***ton of fake news on his social media in general. It made me annoyed because it is not just some harmless behavior; we are talking about human lives here, and I couldn't believe somebody could be so stupid and irresponsible. I knew we had political disagreements and all (and I tolerated most of his political views before this event), but all the lying and lack of responsibility that came with his obsession for COVID-19 was the last straw for me. I just cut the dude out of my life. I think he is delusional and refuses to see reality, which is something I find awfully hard to tolerate.
Interesting fact,
Anyone who has not faced their shadow is in denial of reality.
Considering the extreme unpleasantness of doing so, being in denial is arguably a biological imperative.
Of course being in denial of a dangerous infectious disease comes with its evolutionary consequences......
 

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I genuinely appreciated the video. Thanks for sharing. It is something that will stay with me for a long time, for sure. It touched me.

I gotta ask, are you a 9? I generally find that 9s are the ones promoting unity and this "let's all talk with each other and understand each other" argument, but unfortunately, I don't think this is always possible.

The KKK guy from the video clearly had the potential to change. He was open-minded enough to change his views over time through having an unique friendship with that black dude. Unfortunately, not all people are like this. Many people will cling to hatred and prejudice no matter what, many people are devoid from this potential to change their harmful views (even if you try to start a dialogue).

Trying to sympathize with these people and create a dialogue with them is not always the best idea. Sometimes they're just genuinely bad, toxic elements that should be cut out from your life if you want it free from their influence. Sometimes people will resist change at all costs and trying to convince them of something else is like playing tennis with yourself; the other side is simply not present.

So I guess we should make a distinction between political radicals who show some potential to change and political radicals who don't have this potential at all and will die believing in what they believe in. Doing this is very important, because I don't want to waste my time trying to change someone who has their worldview set in stone.
Hm, I'm not sure what I am. Everything but I think 3, 7, and 8 resonated with me on some level. I've always had a firm belief in that everyone has a valid opinion and viewpoint though; it may take some walking in their shoes or understanding they've been lied to (or are lying) to see it.

I think the main problem is it takes time and effort to change anyone's mind, and we as a people just don't have that time so much. I find it helps to just be a part of their community, pitching in with my own thoughts and ideas as troublesome topics come up. When I respond to someone's political rant with a thought-provoking analysis rather than an attack, I find other people in their community also set down their big guns and do a little thinking--even if it's only for a few minutes before jumping back into the fray. But each time you can stretch out that knee-jerk reaction and make it into a thinking session is a victory.

The people I've found who can't be convinced so easily are those who have a strong emotional tie. Sometimes the tie is from being fired up on propaganda ("hate speech is violence as shown by the suicide rates!" for instance), and sometimes it's personal experience (one feminist they met was a truly awful person for example). Oddly, I've found those two categories convinced by different things. The ones fired up on propaganda are more swayed by personal stories, while the ones who are acting off of personal experience benefit more from a therapy-lite session of fact-checking their own emotional reactions.

But, the latter in particular needs to trust you, as a person, before they allow you in like that. Hence why I say--treat them as a person first, let them know you care about them and take them seriously--before you go wading into their political opinions.
 

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I agree with @Aizar. We all have the moral responsibility to be positively socially engaged with others. Ignoring and abandoning others is a choice and when we do this, we are responsible for the kind of people we create as a result. In our modern societies, we are deluded into thinking that if we leave someone on their own they will "just figure things out". No. The world is more complicated than it has ever been and no online videos, therapy, drugs, or distractions will ever be able to replace genuine loving human interaction.
 

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In a post modern world all views are equally valid. As an empirical scientist I'm kind of annoyed at post modernism but there ain't nobody who listens to objective reasoning anymore. For instance I get accused of being evil for questioning the validity of a supposedly scientific discipline who's key supporters claim that their theory is proven, thus demonstrating that they are scientifically illiterate since the scientific method states that a theory can only be disproven, not proven. So the question is why do you think your opinion is the correct one? Is it based on objective reasoning or is it based on the subjective reason of believing one side is superior to the other?

Of course once you go down this rabbit hole it eventually leads to the discovery that we are all equal because we are all flawed. So should you reject people for having flaws, especially when that can lead to more extreme views? Normally I prefer to judge that on the basis of a person's actions and how they treat others. But naturally everyone has their limits.
I have to disagree with you here. It is a sham to say all are equal. The institution of law, the institution of government, the institution of education etc endless institutions have a tremendously greater validity than the rest. The way temples and priests used to dictate truth in ancient world, there is plenty that dictates truth in the postmodern world.

The very idea of or the possibility of an objective truth is merely a subjective preference. From there you lead to the argument that everyone is flawed in a series of illogical jumps. What you are resorting to is a popular cliche that everyone is flawed. I think everyone is normal in their own way. You have your own way. I have my own way. As for the right way, it does not exist.

The parent document of all institutions in the modern society is the constitution of their country. And in that constitution the value of justice has been given preference over other values such as liberty, equality etc. Justice comes first (and I am not referring to the SJW kind of justice). I am referring to justice as the foundation of any society anywhere. Some people when choose to pursue the path of prosperity and excess to burden another part of the population, it hurts in a very subjective way. That is where difference in political opinions start interfering with personal relationships. I have severed ties with a great number of people because my country is growing fascist very fast and I cannot fight these people endlessly. It is only a daydream to think all are equal. All are equal because the institutions allow that. Enter any institution and you will see maddening power hierarchies.
 

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I have to disagree with you here. It is a sham to say all are equal. The institution of law, the institution of government, the institution of education etc endless institutions have a tremendously greater validity than the rest. The way temples and priests used to dictate truth in ancient world, there is plenty that dictates truth in the postmodern world.

The very idea of or the possibility of an objective truth is merely a subjective preference. From there you lead to the argument that everyone is flawed in a series of illogical jumps. What you are resorting to is a popular cliche that everyone is flawed. I think everyone is normal in their own way. You have your own way. I have my own way. As for the right way, it does not exist.

The parent document of all institutions in the modern society is the constitution of their country. And in that constitution the value of justice has been given preference over other values such as liberty, equality etc. Justice comes first (and I am not referring to the SJW kind of justice). I am referring to justice as the foundation of any society anywhere. Some people when choose to pursue the path of prosperity and excess to burden another part of the population, it hurts in a very subjective way. That is where difference in political opinions start interfering with personal relationships. I have severed ties with a great number of people because my country is growing fascist very fast and I cannot fight these people endlessly. It is only a daydream to think all are equal. All are equal because the institutions allow that. Enter any institution and you will see maddening power hierarchies.
There is no right or wrong, only right and wrong. We have a binary perception of a dualistic reality. People who have a desire to prove they are good will find evil where none exists. That's because good can't exist in a vacuum. The problem humanity faces is that people live in denial of their shadow. The motivation to be good comes from the subconscious fear that you are not. It is why people hold on to beilef no matter the evidence. To go against is to admit to inadequacy. To face your shadow is to acknowledge the potential for destruction within yourself. Only then can you perceive your own bias and blind spots. Most people cannot comprehend the notion of having the potential to be worse than Hitler, yet that potential is within all of us. Unfortunately the the process of shadow integration is torture, for it can only be accomplished through the shattering of your ego.
 
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