Personality Cafe banner
1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
82 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As a very strong ENTP, I often myself at odds with other ENTPs who seem to have their heads in the clouds. I've noticed I'm not alone. Many of the NTs I know, including some ENTPs, like to research the hell out of a topic, pull out every last bit of data, and develop encyclopedic knowledge of that topic. And because were Es, we don't STFU about it either. I love challenging conventional wisdom, and creating new ways of doing things, and have no respect for hierarchies. But yet, I find myself clashing with the idea-driven NTs who often dream up ideas with no data to see if their idea can fit any kind of reality.

Data NTs, like me, seem to do ok in big corporations, even though we hate structure. Think the chaotic world of tech companies makes this easier. But Idea NTs seem much better suited to entrepreneurship, and really clash with larger corporate cultures. Data NTs seem to be analysts, while Idea NTs seem to be architects. Same people might say Data NTs could be INTJs, but I'm no I, and definitely not a J. I think this is a distinction in preference that MBTI overlooks, and can impact career choices. Have others experienced this?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,533 Posts
I think this might be similar to an empiricist/rationalist dichotomy and I agree that rationalists are frustrating because they all to often use their "logic" to justify their own subjective prejudices.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,279 Posts
As a very strong ENTP, I often myself at odds with other ENTPs who seem to have their heads in the clouds. I've noticed I'm not alone. Many of the NTs I know, including some ENTPs, like to research the hell out of a topic, pull out every last bit of data, and develop encyclopedic knowledge of that topic. And because were Es, we don't STFU about it either. I love challenging conventional wisdom, and creating new ways of doing things, and have no respect for hierarchies. But yet, I find myself clashing with the idea-driven NTs who often dream up ideas with no data to see if their idea can fit any kind of reality.

Data NTs, like me, seem to do ok in big corporations, even though we hate structure. Think the chaotic world of tech companies makes this easier. But Idea NTs seem much better suited to entrepreneurship, and really clash with larger corporate cultures. Data NTs seem to be analysts, while Idea NTs seem to be architects. Same people might say Data NTs could be INTJs, but I'm no I, and definitely not a J. I think this is a distinction in preference that MBTI overlooks, and can impact career choices. Have others experienced this?
I think it's wrong. Even idea driven NT's (Ti heavy over Te heavy) do have good knowledge of the subject. Analysis is distinct from statistics and facts seeking:

ANALYSIS
1. the separating of any material or abstract entity into its constituent elements (opposed to synthesis ).
2. this process as a method of studying the nature of something or of determining its essential features and their relations
In other words it is deconstructing idea, concept or complex system to simple parts. Each simple part is compared to hypothetical pure part in order to examine all implications. This being considered dreaming up ideas may be misunderstanding as it is often logical examination of real systems.

BTW: I do a lot of test-analysis and requirement analysis in order to design useful test scenarios. It's no dreaming up.
I myself am freelance Tester and I prefer working for smaller companies because of the culture.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,279 Posts
I think this might be similar to an empiricist/rationalist dichotomy and I agree that rationalists are frustrating because they all to often use their "logic" to justify their own subjective prejudices.
It's also frustrating when empiricists mistake noise or random correlation with causation because they study the complex systems only through the data without proper filtering based on system analysis.

Analytic method can also bring results from ranges that we cannot get empirical data for.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,396 Posts
Uh, I'm also having trouble with that dichotomy. I'm more of an idea-NT in that I'd prefer entrepreneurship and clash with typical corporate culture, but I will not pursue (or even begin to consider) anything until I've researched the hell out of it, have a near-expert level of knowledge on the topic, analyzed a bunch of different scenarios and their future implications, and made sure I have at least some performance/progress metrics to go by, if not concrete steps or deadlines.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
307 Posts
All my data are just biased observations which I generalize just enough to be applicable to basically anything. I guess that's pretty entrepreneur-like.

Hah, the only time I draw up data is to make what I say seem more valid. People tend to trust you more if you seem to know what you're doing. But I don't have data, so don't trust these words.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,533 Posts
It's also frustrating when empiricists mistake noise or random correlation with causation because they study the complex systems only through the data without proper filtering based on system analysis.

Analytic method can also bring results from ranges that we cannot get empirical data for.
Let's make babies
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
304 Posts
The J/P dichotomy is a joke in the MBTI; take a look at what Jung was talking about in regards to his cognitive functions, and you'll see that Myers-Briggs is supremely washed out pop psychology. Because of this fact, I am going to reference Socionics (Eastern Europe's more precise and logical interpretation of Jung's groundwork)

The MBTI unfortunately types people based on attitudes and behaviors. Truly, the theories behind this typology refer more to what reasoning led to the attitudes and beliefs. So @DefLeppardTShirt , the way you are approaching typing yourself and others may be very off (but don't worry, the majority of this forum approaches typology in this manner)

Te-Ni or Ni-Te (ENTJs and INTJs) are primarily focused on sticking to one route of action, and only changing said plan if a more viable option occurs. When encountering a problem in the work place, for example, a rough solution is immediately formed, a starting point is formed to be further developed on. When a problem has been permanently solved, a satisfaction occurs. Overall, Ni types have a much more ambitious feel to them. (Data NTs)

Ne-Ti or Ti-Ne (ENTPs and INTPs) are primarily focused on possibilities and keeping their options open. Instead of narrowing in on one solution, they like to more discover possible solutions, rather than implement them. When they do solve a problem, it is almost a feeling of disappointment, because all other potentials for the incident vanish. They have a more airy and soft feel to them. (Idea NTs)

Socionics is the system to go to if you want to tie in your observations of people into a sound system. Trust me when I say MBTI leads to circles; I studied it for three years extensively, before coming to the light.

You do not strike me (at least in one post) as an Ne-Ti. Read these two descriptions, and see if one sounds more accurate?

Intuitive-Logical Extratim - ENTp (The Inventor)

Logical-Intuitive Extratim - ENTj (The Pioneer)

From your speech, I'm picking up possible ENTJ vibes (Yes, I know how subjective vibes are)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
92 Posts
On the contrary, I feel extremely satisfied when a problem is solved. Also, just because you're messy doesn't mean you're not a J, different people have certain qualities from the other side of the dichotomy inherently built in. No one is a perfect Introvert, so why would you expect J to match your lifestyle perfectly? I thought you sounded ENTJ, myself.

As for the OP, I think you're splitting something that requires two parts. Dreaming up ideas is a precursor to collecting data. If no idea exists, no search for data can. Perhaps there are tendencies for one ENTP to be more of an idea generator than another, but that is to be expected lest we all be carbon copies of one another.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
866 Posts
I agree. Besides I notice that some INTPs are more inclined to scientific reasoning vs the ones prone to more of abstract thinking, which could be another face of your categorization.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
559 Posts
The J/P dichotomy is a joke in the MBTI; take a look at what Jung was talking about in regards to his cognitive functions, and you'll see that Myers-Briggs is supremely washed out pop psychology. Because of this fact, I am going to reference Socionics (Eastern Europe's more precise and logical interpretation of Jung's groundwork)

The MBTI unfortunately types people based on attitudes and behaviors. Truly, the theories behind this typology refer more to what reasoning led to the attitudes and beliefs. So @DefLeppardTShirt , the way you are approaching typing yourself and others may be very off (but don't worry, the majority of this forum approaches typology in this manner)

Te-Ni or Ni-Te (ENTJs and INTJs) are primarily focused on sticking to one route of action, and only changing said plan if a more viable option occurs. When encountering a problem in the work place, for example, a rough solution is immediately formed, a starting point is formed to be further developed on. When a problem has been permanently solved, a satisfaction occurs. Overall, Ni types have a much more ambitious feel to them. (Data NTs)

Ne-Ti or Ti-Ne (ENTPs and INTPs) are primarily focused on possibilities and keeping their options open. Instead of narrowing in on one solution, they like to more discover possible solutions, rather than implement them. When they do solve a problem, it is almost a feeling of disappointment, because all other potentials for the incident vanish. They have a more airy and soft feel to them. (Idea NTs)

Socionics is the system to go to if you want to tie in your observations of people into a sound system. Trust me when I say MBTI leads to circles; I studied it for three years extensively, before coming to the light.

You do not strike me (at least in one post) as an Ne-Ti. Read these two descriptions, and see if one sounds more accurate?

Intuitive-Logical Extratim - ENTp (The Inventor)

Logical-Intuitive Extratim - ENTj (The Pioneer)

From your speech, I'm picking up possible ENTJ vibes (Yes, I know how subjective vibes are)
You went on a rant about how typology is about the thought process that influences the behavior, not the behavior, then linked socionics descriptions that literally point out behaviors in every paragraph.
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top