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Women aren't wired either to be incapable of taking responsibility for their actions. Dressing a certain way is an action, whether you like it or not. You have to take responsibility in how your present yourself, and in how people perceive you as a result of you presenting yourself a certain way. Women aren't exempt of that responsibility.


Agree with the first part, half agree with the second one. There is a responsibility in how one presents themselves. This is not a debate, this is not up for discussion.


However, generally, people have their wallet hidden from sight. Men who flaunt their money inevitably end up attracting gold-diggers, the same way that women who flaunt their bodies, end up attracting the least refined men. Some of them don't complain about it, others get played over and over while avoiding taking responsibility in regards to how they present themselves, shifting the blame entirely on the person who was attracted to that.

Saying people are wired like that does not excuse their actions, but for the love of all that is holy, stop saying that presenting oneself in a certain way never leads, or should never lead, to certain outcomes. That is just a childish, and spoilt way of viewing the world. The world doesn't work like that. Never has, never will.

Because we talk about how women dress here, but here, have an example of the reverse : PJ Washington (NBA player) got recently played by an IG thot (there's really no other way to describe her). They were married, the idiot went in raw, knocked the thot up, and she divorced him for $200k/mo compensation, can't remember if that's full child support or if there's some alimony included in there. And that's after she had made a video about how much of a thot she was. So, she, is an entire thot and a half, but HE, he's a first class idiot and deserves what happened to him. He is responsible for that, at least for half of it. Because he's doing it again, he's already with another IG thot. It's probably gonna get played again, and it's gonna be even more deserved, why ? Because he's fishing in the same pool. If he really didn't want to be played like that he would fish elsewhere. He wouldn't lead with money or status. Except that's convenient for him you see. Just doing his job brings women right to his doorstep, in a line, but possibly catfighting to get first in line, who knows, so why wouldn't he take advantage of that, right ?

Same here with women who dress a certain way.


So, should the IG thot be entirely responsible for that situation with PJ Washington, and him not at all ? Or does he, at any point, have any ounce of responsibility in it ? Because that's what you're arguing here. She's being unethical, she's profiting, and she did the act of divorcing him after having a kid from him.

The answer is they are both responsible. Arguably him more than her. And to be extremely clear because I see the line coming from someone : this is not victim blaming. This is not what it is. Either way.

See, now the situation is reversed, and I'm pretty sure everyone would be extremely quick and happy to assign some, if not most, responsibility to him, possibly to excuse her behavior as "well he let her do it, she just did what she had to do to get the bag". Suddenly when the women are at that end of the stick, it's entirely men's fault, and not at all women's. I don't buy it. I can gladly accept that some men acting the way they do is unacceptable and that it shouldn't be done, but I cannot feel sorry for women who end up in those situations. And the same goes for the situation in reverse.


I'm not arguing for any ban either, just, if you do A, expect B. If you know men are thirsty, and you dress skankily because you "feel like it", then expect men to thirst after you. That's not rocket science. If you know women are attracted by money and status, and you flaunt your money and status, then expect women to try and play you. Still not rocket science.
If you (not you personally, but maybe, I don't know you) can't accept that as men we are wired to like what we see, and also to take initiative or else we don't even get to reproduce, then that is not a men's problem. That is a you problem. You know that fact, you just choose to ignore it because you don't like it and you think you should be able to wear what you want, and then what was going to happen, finally happens, and you're somehow… surprised ? Nope, no compassion for you. The same way the vast majority of women don't care about that PJ Washington situation.

The world is unfair, life is unfair, we all just do with what we have, but we have to take responsibility for what we do. And dressing any way or another is an action that we all choose to do. That men also do, and take responsibility for it.
It must be nice to imagine that you have magical control over predators just by putting on an extra layer of clothing...wow that t-shirt is like a chastity belt? See that? One minute I was about to be raped, because I had a v-neck on, but the scarf?! Magic! No rapists will ever know I'm a girl now!

Because...you see...men can't tell women have breasts unless women go topless! It's like magic. The knowledge of human anatomy completely disappears as soon as you put a scarf on!

And the same thing works for "thots" and gold diggers--women can't possibly suss up if a man's wealthy by any other sign then...um...apparently being on IG? Because that's how the NBA player got "caught" by the "thot"? I'm a little unclear on how that is connected.

But yeah, it's simple men--if you don't want to be exploited by con artists or gold diggers, just put your wallet deeper in your pocket! So no one sees! Then they can't possibly figure out if you're wealthy.

Seriously--you don't know anything about avoiding sexual assault as a woman. Predators aren't idiots, and I'm sure they really like that people to justify their behavior with "oh...she wore that...of course it's going to happen...welp her fault anyway b/c men are WIRED that way."

I always advise girls and women to carry self-defense weapons, not because I believe they are "partly responsible" for something that could "inevitably happen" if they don't. You can suggest advice without actually victim blaming or playing in to the hands of exploitative people who don't want to be blamed for their crimes.

But comparing some NBA player chatting up and marrying, and having a kid with a "thot" from IG to being sexually assaulted "because" your skirt is too short is a bit of a stretch to me.

I do think that it's important to try to repel people who are exploitative, and yes--people will justify certain behaviors based on appearance. If a woman's wearing a short skirt people will say "well dur ya know...men are just brainless sea sponges like me burp" and so it does sometimes allow for these things to happen more easily since it offers predators less obstacles, compared to an environment in which people say "men have brains and can decide not to rape, therefore we will hold rapists accountable for their behavior no matter if they try to blame someone's clothing for it." Fortunately the world is changing more towards the latter.
 

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I understand you a lot better now. And I'm going to publicly come back into this thread and say that I actually agree with a lot of the themes you speak of, just not the presentation you're going with lmao.

Because I agree with your analysis of that situation and your mentor's decision. It was a decision guided by Fe, he cared more about the harmony than his pride. He knew what was going on, and he didn't let it damage his own pride because he knew that no matter how much wrong she did, he was the one doing the right thing.

People get really stuck up on gender when it comes to stuff like this. Guys get shit on by women who mistreat them too, and if some people want to publicly shame them, I'm not going to stop them. If I knew your mentor's wife personally, I'd call her a slut to anyone who asked me. I wouldn't be sorry about it, either. But only after I was sure who was in the right.

I just stop agreeing with you when you start calling people worthless for showing their tits.
It did damage his pride. It was tearing him apart on the inside. He was putting on an act for the sake of his children. He's still putting on that act. They haven't been together for some years now and he still speaks well of her to anyone that asks. Only exception to this was an acquaintance/friend of his who wanted permission to start dating her. All he said to him was, I'd advise against it. I genuinely admire the way he does things, but don't be mistaken. It's all an act.

That's fine. I'm never going to lose respect for someone because they don't like what I have to say. I'm going to lose respect for you when you regularly pervert what's been said and I deduce that you're doing it on purpose and not just misunderstanding. I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you misunderstood what I said. I said publicly exposing herself makes a woman cheap. Cheap. Not worthless. Low value. Not zero value. The people I consider worthless are murderers, rapists, armed robbers, drug pushers, arms dealers, and most of all the corrupt politicians and their ilk who enable and facilitate such people. People like that are worthless. Exhibitionists are cheap. Sluts and their male equivalents are even cheaper and bordering on being worthless. Unmarried = very cheap. Married = worthless. Hope that clears things up.
 

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Free females doesn't get locked up inside the house and prevented schooling. Hijab is just one aspect of the sum of slavery
Christian Arabs, Jewish Arabs, Atheist Arabs, Pagan Arabs all share in their Arab traditions and their women stay at home, are prevented from schooling, but don't wear the hijab. This is because Hijab is from Islam, not Arab tradition.

When you say hijab is one aspect of the sum of slavery, you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There are more non Arab Muslims in the world than there are Arab Muslims. In most Muslim countries, women are not locked up in the house nor are they prevented from schooling but still wear their hijab. And what it is is a protection and freedom from the temptations of evil men. Hijab is one of the biggest reasons women are a lot safer from harm in Muslim countries despite the poverty present in many of those nations.
 

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Hijab is from Islam. Being locked up inside a house and prevented from schooling is from Arab tradition. When you say hijab is one aspect of the sum of slavery, you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There are more non Arab Muslims in the world than there are Arab Muslims. In most Muslim countries, women are not locked up in the house nor are they prevented from schooling but still wear their hijab. And what it is is a protection and freedom from the temptations of evil men. Hijab is one of the biggest reasons women are a lot safer from harm in Muslim countries despite the poverty present in many of those nations.
Each to their own
 

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You are as funny as bugs bunny.
Lol, it's true though. Either that or you were being extremely disingenuous. Anyway I'm glad I could provide some comic relief, even unintentionally. Laughter is one of the most effective weapons against today's depression epidemic.
 

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Lol, it's true though. Either that or you were being extremely disingenuous. Anyway I'm glad I could provide some comic relief, even unintentionally. Laughter is one of the most effective weapons against today's depression epidemic.
Stop attacking me with ad hominems they don't add anything to the discussion and just makes it even more toxic. I am going to block you
 

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Stop attacking me with ad hominems they don't add anything to the discussion and just makes it even more toxic. I am going to block you
Oh please give it a rest with the victim act. You spoke from a position of ignorance and I corrected you. Peace.
 

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It must be nice to imagine that you have magical control over predators just by putting on an extra layer of clothing...wow that t-shirt is like a chastity belt? See that? One minute I was about to be raped, because I had a v-neck on, but the scarf?! Magic! No rapists will ever know I'm a girl now!

Because...you see...men can't tell women have breasts unless women go topless! It's like magic. The knowledge of human anatomy completely disappears as soon as you put a scarf on!

And the same thing works for "thots" and gold diggers--women can't possibly suss up if a man's wealthy by any other sign then...um...apparently being on IG? Because that's how the NBA player got "caught" by the "thot"? I'm a little unclear on how that is connected.

But yeah, it's simple men--if you don't want to be exploited by con artists or gold diggers, just put your wallet deeper in your pocket! So no one sees! Then they can't possibly figure out if you're wealthy.
Here it comes, full blast sarcasm and condescension.

1) Predators are not as common as gold-diggers. They just aren't. You feeling like prey does not mean you're surrounded by predators. That's just you feeling like prey. Men are, statistically, being violently assaulted for free/no reason/reasons more than women are being sexually assaulted. Let that sink in. And "sexual assault" is broad, to say the least, stop throwing that term around. That's why your feelings are relevant at a small scale, but not at a large/global scale.
2) This is not about controlling others. You can't control others. You can control what you do only. Others will do what they do, you have no control over that.
3) N°2) is exactly why you should focus on mitigating risks. But clearly you have no idea what mitigating risk is about or else you would have instantly understood what I did say, instead of putting words in my mouth.
4) Mitigating risk does not mean the risk disappears entirely. It's a common mistake that's being made in discussions, on that topic specifically, and by women specifically. Not dressing like a professional does not mean that nothing is going to happen. It means you're doing what is in your power, to reduce the chances of it happening. That's what mitigating risk means. Incidentally, when a woman does that and is still the victim of something she can then genuinely say she has done the most that is in her power to mitigate the risk. Her part of the responsibility is not on the table anymore. But only then. If she doesn't do what she can, then she has some responsibility in it.


Seriously--you don't know anything about avoiding sexual assault as a woman. Predators aren't idiots, and I'm sure they really like that people to justify their behavior with "oh...she wore that...of course it's going to happen...welp her fault anyway b/c men are WIRED that way."
I know about staying safe and taking responsibility for my actions. You, however, don't know anything about taking responsibility for yourself. Remember, there's always men to blame ! Again, stop putting words in my mouth. I am not justifying their behavior. Quote the part of my previous post in which I did. Do it. Because I know that I specifically went the extra mile and put disclaimers to make sure it was clear I didn't ; that's all you're gonna find. Prove it. Show me. Show everyone. Without editing my post. If you don't prove it or can't prove it, I'll just have to consider that you cannot be reasoned with, nor trusted, nor listened to, for anything.

That is a nasty twist you're going for here. Female manipulation at its best/worst. You're ignoring the entirety of the actual point I made, and instead twisted it to fit your sick agenda, to the point where I'm questioning either your honesty or your intelligence/knowledge in this exchange. I'm not sure which one yet, but it's one or the other. Because clearly you're distorting my entire post. I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and attribute it to ignorance or stupidity rather than malice (yes it is worse if it is malice).

I always advise girls and women to carry self-defense weapons, not because I believe they are "partly responsible" for something that could "inevitably happen" if they don't.
Ah yes, so why do you advise them to carry self-defense weapons, exactly, if not because they have some responsibility in their own safety ? At this point I'm actually curious, let's peel this.

How is this that you think that women are better off carrying rather than not carrying ? It shouldn't happen, right ? Men should control themselves, right ? And they're the only party responsible anyway, so why is there a need for it ? Clearly it's not because of responsibility, so why is that ? Please do tell. I hope it's not because they can do something to mitigate the risks or to protect themselves, that would be… victim blaming… you wouldn't dare, would you ?

You can suggest advice without actually victim blaming or playing in to the hands of exploitative people who don't want to be blamed for their crimes.
Called it. You feminists are way too predictable. I didn't think you'd have the audacity to jump on that dick right after I'd called it and debunked it. But apparently that doesn't stop you, you're still trying the shaming tactics, this is a fantastic case study. Those blinkers are effective, god damn, I have to get myself some of those, this must be incredible being able to go through life with so little self-awareness. At least now I know for certain that you are out of arguments, that was pretty fast.

No, apparently, nobody can suggest sensible advice, because any advice is received as victim blaming. What, the person who was a victim can do things for it to not happen anymore ? Oh no !

Want more victim blaming advice ? Here, have some :
— get into martial arts
— get into athleticism (specifically, running, more specifically, both sprint and long-distance running)
— carry self-defense weapons
— do not put yourself in compromising situations (that includes drugs and alcohol in public, but also dressing as non-provocatively as possible)
— have a spine
— always prepare receipts : if something happens anyway and you cannot prove it, you're screwed. Try as best as you can to have proof of what happens, so that you can say "I have proof". You know. Instead of not going to the police "because they wouldn't believe me anyway". Well now you have proof, good job, you can go to the police, and this is the first thing you should be doing if something happens.

Those are all good advice. None of those advocate for victim blaming. But all of them advocate for personal responsibility. Learn the difference.

But comparing some NBA player chatting up and marrying, and having a kid with a "thot" from IG to being sexually assaulted "because" your skirt is too short is a bit of a stretch to me.
The comparison is perfectly valid. It seems like a stretch to you because you do not understand the fundamental issue. You have a problem with women being objectified sexually, but you do not have a problem with men being objectified financially. You know it's happening, you just do not care. I don't blame you for it, because you have, as a woman, no biological interest in that, in fact your own biological interests are diametrically opposed to those of men (and vice-versa). However it makes you emotionally involved in this topic, so, unable to put yourself in other people's (men's) shoes, and so, intellectually unable to comprehend why the comparison is perfectly valid.

The reason you do not like the comparison is because sexual assault removes a woman's agency in mate-selection, which creates a deep-rooted existential fear. Men's agency in mate-selection is their ability to provide resources and protection to their family, and their existential fear, most of the time, will be investing in and raising a child that isn't theirs, or to lose their own child, and eventually put their lives on the line so that their wife's and child's will not be on the line (which is undeniably, unarguably, the ultimate sacrifice, don't even try). That means he is valued, not just by society, but specifically by women, and women reinforce that constantly, for his financial status to at least some extent, generally to a great extent. Whether you like the comparison or not, Washington is now paying way too much a month (remember, $200k/mo, probably for 18 years) for a child he likely won't get to see much since she has custody, and who will be raised with a retarded thot of a mother, and no father. It's equivalent. That thing drains financial resources from him and he doesn't get to be a father to his own child. It triggers the man's deep existential fear, the same way the topic of rape triggers women's. Except he is being held accountable for his bad decisions, by the law, and by divorce courts. Which is not the case for women, look, I'm trying to do it and suddenly it's victim blaming. It's magic.

If you cannot understand that, then you cannot be saved.

By the way there's no quotes to add around thot. That's her entire brand. To be a thot. She's otherwise masculine, crass, has an attitude that would utterly disgust most men if she wasn't as good looking as she is. There's a video around of her talking about her sexual past and partners, another one in which she explains how it's okay to overtly use men for their resources. She wrote a book about how much of a thot she is, on the cover of which she poses naked, because that's who she is and all she has to offer, her body, and in which she talks about the 7 lessons she learned, being with hand-picked 7 among 23 (at the time) men (the majority being millionaires, or athletes, or both). She's been railed as much as some short lived porn stars, there's only the train left to do her. Brittany Renner. Check her IG out if you dare. She is overtly one, she owns it. If she could be naked on IG without getting banned she would be naked.
She is the equivalent to a man who's an actual sexual predator. No amount of shaming will get her to change, none. I just said all that, if she heard it she wouldn't care, because she owns all of that. I could tell you her future, but apparently I'm too late, she's already asking "where are the good men", which would have been predictable if it didn't already happen. That was literally the first step of my prediction for her future, give or take a couple more children from different fathers before that. I didn't think she'd go right away. I apparently still have an issue with (under)estimating women's ability to show their worst side to the world.

I do think that it's important to try to repel people who are exploitative, and yes--people will justify certain behaviors based on appearance. If a woman's wearing a short skirt people will say "well dur ya know...men are just brainless sea sponges like me burp" and so it does sometimes allow for these things to happen more easily since it offers predators less obstacles, compared to an environment in which people say "men have brains and can decide not to rape, therefore we will hold rapists accountable for their behavior no matter if they try to blame someone's clothing for it." Fortunately the world is changing more towards the latter.
A bunch of things here :

1) The two are not exclusive. The latter has been happening for decades (and holding men accountable for various degrees of sexual assault is in the law since you seem to be unaware), and the former is not a justification. I know you desperately want to frame it as such, but it isn't one. It is an acknowledgement of our human, animal, nature. Listen, if you really think we can all (you included) just ignore our lizard-brain instincts, then please, go date a homeless dude. Get him out of where he is. Prove to everyone how much of a better person you are. Prove to everyone how easy it is to ignore your instincts. We both know it's not happening. We both know you don't want to. You'll provide unconvincing reasons as to why you don't want to do it, but we both know that deep down, it's because he can't provide financial security to you. I would argue that women are much worse at controlling their instincts than men are, by far.
2) Holding rapists accountable ? How about… listen, this is gonna sound wild, but… the law ? It's not perfect but it's millions times better than what you're doing right now.
3) Friendly reminder that actual predators consciously ignore the law, and human rights, anyway. They know it's illegal, they know they most likely will get caught. That doesn't stop them, and it certainly doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive for the law to do its job either. But if you think shaming them socially, or worse, shaming non-predators into agreeing with your point of view so the actual predators change/stop, is going to stop them, then you have your right arm so far up your bum that your hand goes out your mouth and you speak in sign language with it. Those people ignore the law, human rights, they will ignore most everything, except maybe their sense of self-preservation, in some cases, aka, when their lives are actually threatened. Have you even seen murderers during their sentencing ? With some of them you can clearly see the evil grin on their face as they're hearing they're going on death row or for life in prison, showing that they don't care that they're going to never be free again. Those are not people you are going to successfully argue with. Hell you can't even do that properly with mentally sane people, what makes you think those people will see the light if you show it to them ?
4) Friendly reminder that a rapist in prison is viewed as subhuman by murderers, he's in the same bag as pedophiles. You can trust that when a murderer looks down at you, you're paying. It's bad.
5) I'm pre-shooting here, but following on that last point : there is no "rape culture". You know that's the case when murderers look down on rapists. It is not culturally accepted, at all, to rape, or to sexually assault women or children (again, nobody cares that it also happens to men). It is not accepted, it is not encouraged, it is not condoned, it is not unpunished, it is not wanted. It's none of that, even in prison. I don't know where people got that idea that it is all of that, and it should stop being all that. It just isn't.


I should reasonably have stopped typing when I saw you still went for the shaming tactics, and proved yourself unable to produce any single argument, but this really is a case study for all to see.
 
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Here it comes, full blast sarcasm and condescension.

1) Predators are not as common as gold-diggers. They just aren't. You feeling like prey does not mean you're surrounded by predators. That's just you feeling like prey. Men are, statistically, being violently assaulted for free/no reason/reasons more than women are being sexually assaulted. Let that sink in. And "sexual assault" is broad, to say the least, stop throwing that term around. That's why your feelings are relevant at a small scale, but not at a large/global scale.
I would be open to the idea that thieves are more common than rapists, because money is more of a necessity whereas sex is only claimed to be by some silly-heads, but I still want to know how many more "gold diggers" there are from those who sexually assault/sexual predators. And I'd like to see citations and legitimate sources (which there won't be any because "gold digger" is subjective whereas "rapist" is not.

2) This is not about controlling others. You can't control others. You can control what you do only. Others will do what they do, you have no control over that.
3) N°2) is exactly why you should focus on mitigating risks. But clearly you have no idea what mitigating risk is about or else you would have instantly understood what I did say, instead of putting words in my mouth.
4) Mitigating risk does not mean the risk disappears entirely. It's a common mistake that's being made in discussions, on that topic specifically, and by women specifically. Not dressing like a professional does not mean that nothing is going to happen. It means you're doing what is in your power, to reduce the chances of it happening. That's what mitigating risk means. Incidentally, when a woman does that and is still the victim of something she can then genuinely say she has done the most that is in her power to mitigate the risk. Her part of the responsibility is not on the table anymore. But only then. If she doesn't do what she can, then she has some responsibility in it.



I know about staying safe and taking responsibility for my actions. You, however, don't know anything about taking responsibility for yourself. Remember, there's always men to blame ! Again, stop putting words in my mouth. I am not justifying their behavior. Quote the part of my previous post in which I did. Do it. Because I know that I specifically went the extra mile and put disclaimers to make sure it was clear I didn't ; that's all you're gonna find. Prove it. Show me. Show everyone. Without editing my post. If you don't prove it or can't prove it, I'll just have to consider that you cannot be reasoned with, nor trusted, nor listened to, for anything.
Guess I "cannot be reasoned with, nor trusted, nor listened to, for anything" because you said that

If you (not you personally, but maybe, I don't know you) can't accept that as men we are wired to like what we see, and also to take initiative or else we don't even get to reproduce, then that is not a men's problem. That is a you problem. You know that fact, you just choose to ignore it because you don't like it and you think you should be able to wear what you want, and then what was going to happen, finally happens, and you're somehow… surprised ? Nope, no compassion for you.
And I took that as you justifying rape because a woman's clothing--especially when you said:

Dressing a certain way is an action, whether you like it or not. You have to take responsibility in how your present yourself, and in how people perceive you as a result of you presenting yourself a certain way. Women aren't exempt of that responsibility.

...women who flaunt their bodies, end up attracting the least refined men.
When I assumed we're not talking about blowing a job interview by dressing like a slob, and instead talking about getting sexually assaulted because of what one wore.



That is a nasty twist you're going for here. Female manipulation at its best/worst. You're ignoring the entirety of the actual point I made, and instead twisted it to fit your sick agenda, to the point where I'm questioning either your honesty or your intelligence/knowledge in this exchange. I'm not sure which one yet, but it's one or the other. Because clearly you're distorting my entire post. I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and attribute it to ignorance or stupidity rather than malice (yes it is worse if it is malice).
lol maybe it's a special manipulative mind-control organ in my boobs...you know, the one that controls men's behavior when they encounter them...that makes me also culpable in anything a man chooses to do.

That must be at work here...twisting it all to my sick agenda...or should I say my nefarious boob's agenda.

Ah yes, so why do you advise them to carry self-defense weapons, exactly, if not because they have some responsibility in their own safety ? At this point I'm actually curious, let's peel this.

How is this that you think that women are better off carrying rather than not carrying ? It shouldn't happen, right ? Men should control themselves, right ? And they're the only party responsible anyway, so why is there a need for it ? Clearly it's not because of responsibility, so why is that ? Please do tell. I hope it's not because they can do something to mitigate the risks or to protect themselves, that would be… victim blaming… you wouldn't dare, would you ?
Because of risk mitigation--even if you want to pretend that you're the only one who thinks of it by advising women to um...wear some extra fabric or something to stop predators.

Called it. You feminists are way too predictable. I didn't think you'd have the audacity to jump on that dick right after I'd called it and debunked it. But apparently that doesn't stop you, you're still trying the shaming tactics, this is a fantastic case study. Those blinkers are effective, god damn, I have to get myself some of those, this must be incredible being able to go through life with so little self-awareness. At least now I know for certain that you are out of arguments, that was pretty fast.
It's called appealing to people's better nature--you didn't debunk anything. If you keep insisting that a woman covering her boobs somehow prevents sexual predators from mistreating her, you are just being ignorant. Which makes sense, since you're not a woman.

Initially, I was inspired by breast ironing to talk about this--it's the very real and serious consideration that is a logical extension of the idea that men cannot be controlled around women's (or girls) breasts.

And it is horrible and entails stunting young girl's physical growth through gruesome and restricting methods. I'm sorry--but the reality is the problem is not the breasts nor the appearance of them, nor the showing of them.

The problem is in the people who choose to disrespect women under the cover that they should be allowed to because the woman's form or dress. I didn't want to talk about it because when people lack empathy for women, they might not care about what physical horrors women or girls are subjected to.


No, apparently, nobody can suggest sensible advice, because any advice is received as victim blaming. What, the person who was a victim can do things for it to not happen anymore ? Oh no !

Want more victim blaming advice ? Here, have some :
— get into martial arts
— get into athleticism (specifically, running, more specifically, both sprint and long-distance running)
— carry self-defense weapons
— do not put yourself in compromising situations (that includes drugs and alcohol in public, but also dressing as non-provocatively as possible)
— have a spine
— always prepare receipts : if something happens anyway and you cannot prove it, you're screwed. Try as best as you can to have proof of what happens, so that you can say "I have proof". You know. Instead of not going to the police "because they wouldn't believe me anyway". Well now you have proof, good job, you can go to the police, and this is the first thing you should be doing if something happens.

Those are all good advice. None of those advocate for victim blaming. But all of them advocate for personal responsibility. Learn the difference.
Yeah--I doubt you know anything or have thought very much on what actually keeps women safe--but some of your suggestions are good. Some of them seem a bit naive or ignorant, but I'm not going to bother critiquing them as I don't feel that would benefit anyone.

The comparison is perfectly valid. It seems like a stretch to you because you do not understand the fundamental issue. You have a problem with women being objectified sexually, but you do not have a problem with men being objectified financially. You know it's happening, you just do not care. I don't blame you for it, because you have, as a woman, no biological interest in that, in fact your own biological interests are diametrically opposed to those of men (and vice-versa). However it makes you emotionally involved in this topic, so, unable to put yourself in other people's (men's) shoes, and so, intellectually unable to comprehend why the comparison is perfectly valid.
You know women and men are not different species, right?

The reason you do not like the comparison is because sexual assault removes a woman's agency in mate-selection, which creates a deep-rooted existential fear. Men's agency in mate-selection is their ability to provide resources and protection to their family, and their existential fear, most of the time, will be investing in and raising a child that isn't theirs, or to lose their own child, and eventually put their lives on the line so that their wife's and child's will not be on the line (which is undeniably, unarguably, the ultimate sacrifice, don't even try). That means he is valued, not just by society, but specifically by women, and women reinforce that constantly, for his financial status to at least some extent, generally to a great extent. Whether you like the comparison or not, Washington is now paying way too much a month (remember, $200k/mo, probably for 18 years) for a child he likely won't get to see much since she has custody, and who will be raised with a retarded thot of a mother, and no father. It's equivalent. That thing drains financial resources from him and he doesn't get to be a father to his own child. It triggers the man's deep existential fear, the same way the topic of rape triggers women's. Except he is being held accountable for his bad decisions, by the law, and by divorce courts. Which is not the case for women, look, I'm trying to do it and suddenly it's victim blaming. It's magic.

If you cannot understand that, then you cannot be saved.
Yeah...that's all a bit wacky sounding, maybe I can't be saved.

By the way there's no quotes to add around thot. That's her entire brand. To be a thot. She's otherwise masculine, crass, has an attitude that would utterly disgust most men if she wasn't as good looking as she is. There's a video around of her talking about her sexual past and partners, another one in which she explains how it's okay to overtly use men for their resources. She wrote a book about how much of a thot she is, on the cover of which she poses naked, because that's who she is and all she has to offer, her body, and in which she talks about the 7 lessons she learned, being with hand-picked 7 among 23 (at the time) men (the majority being millionaires, or athletes, or both). She's been railed as much as some short lived porn stars, there's only the train left to do her. Brittany Renner. Check her IG out if you dare. She is overtly one, she owns it. If she could be naked on IG without getting banned she would be naked.
She is the equivalent to a man who's an actual sexual predator. No amount of shaming will get her to change, none. I just said all that, if she heard it she wouldn't care, because she owns all of that. I could tell you her future, but apparently I'm too late, she's already asking "where are the good men", which would have been predictable if it didn't already happen. That was literally the first step of my prediction for her future, give or take a couple more children from different fathers before that. I didn't think she'd go right away. I apparently still have an issue with (under)estimating women's ability to show their worst side to the world.
I disagree with you--I think the equivalent to a man who's a sexual predator is a woman who's a sexual predator, and it doesn't sound like she's a sexual predator.

It sounds like she's got a lot of qualities that you don't like--which seems sort of odd since you describe her as "masculine" but then you go on to claim she's a terrible person, at the same time accusing me of having some weird feminine um...manipulation thing or something. So I'm a bit confused about whether masculine is supposed to be good or bad, since I thought the deal was men are good, women bad etc. with you.

A bunch of things here :

1) The two are not exclusive. The latter has been happening for decades (and holding men accountable for various degrees of sexual assault is in the law since you seem to be unaware), and the former is not a justification. I know you desperately want to frame it as such, but it isn't one. It is an acknowledgement of our human, animal, nature. Listen, if you really think we can all (you included) just ignore our lizard-brain instincts, then please, go date a homeless dude. Get him out of where he is. Prove to everyone how much of a better person you are. Prove to everyone how easy it is to ignore your instincts. We both know it's not happening. We both know you don't want to. You'll provide unconvincing reasons as to why you don't want to do it, but we both know that deep down, it's because he can't provide financial security to you. I would argue that women are much worse at controlling their instincts than men are, by far.
So to you...my not dating a homeless person...not being able to "control my instincts" to "not date a homeless person" is evidence that women are worse at controlling their instincts, when we're presumably comparing it to not raping people?

Like I can't control my instinct to NOT date a homeless person is being compared to someone's inability to control their instinct to rape someone?

That seems a bit silly.

2) Holding rapists accountable ? How about… listen, this is gonna sound wild, but… the law ? It's not perfect but it's millions times better than what you're doing right now.
3) Friendly reminder that actual predators consciously ignore the law, and human rights, anyway. They know it's illegal, they know they most likely will get caught. That doesn't stop them, and it certainly doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive for the law to do its job either. But if you think shaming them socially, or worse, shaming non-predators into agreeing with your point of view so the actual predators change/stop, is going to stop them, then you have your right arm so far up your bum that your hand goes out your mouth and you speak in sign language with it. Those people ignore the law, human rights, they will ignore most everything, except maybe their sense of self-preservation, in some cases, aka, when their lives are actually threatened. Have you even seen murderers during their sentencing ? With some of them you can clearly see the evil grin on their face as they're hearing they're going on death row or for life in prison, showing that they don't care that they're going to never be free again. Those are not people you are going to successfully argue with. Hell you can't even do that properly with mentally sane people, what makes you think those people will see the light if you show it to them ?
4) Friendly reminder that a rapist in prison is viewed as subhuman by murderers, he's in the same bag as pedophiles. You can trust that when a murderer looks down at you, you're paying. It's bad.
5) I'm pre-shooting here, but following on that last point : there is no "rape culture". You know that's the case when murderers look down on rapists. It is not culturally accepted, at all, to rape, or to sexually assault women or children (again, nobody cares that it also happens to men). It is not accepted, it is not encouraged, it is not condoned, it is not unpunished, it is not wanted. It's none of that, even in prison. I don't know where people got that idea that it is all of that, and it should stop being all that. It just isn't.


I should reasonably have stopped typing when I saw you still went for the shaming tactics, and proved yourself unable to produce any single argument, but this really is a case study for all to see.
Yeah, well I probably shouldn't have responded as meanly as I did, but I figued you wanted to show everyone so I'll just help you.

I agree with you about the law--I'm not sure if I gave the impression that I was against having laws against sexual assault. I'm glad people look down on rape.

I think rape culture mostly refers to us unconsciously excusing rape with excuses like "she's a low value woman" or "she's a slut" or "she's not dressed properly."

But I'm not really an expert.

I really think the part about the NBA guy and his ex wife could have been a separate topic, as it seems you have a lot of issues with her and personally I wouldn't compare her to a rapist.

The reason you have to use weapons against sexual predators is because they don't care about arguments, but it's also why using an extra layer of fabric doesn't somehow prevent sexual assault.
 

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I feel like being more candid about my experiences as a woman with breasts. In some ways, this is not so different than how I perceive exposing one's body in a public place. It's about the truth and about vulnerability, and real experiences.

I have been defensive, but it makes sense to me to also be honest and real even if it entails vulnerability.

As a young girl I dreaded puberty--I experienced the plummet of self-esteem that many girls experience when they begin to develop in puberty.

I can't assume to know why the majority of girls feel their self esteem fall through the floor when they start developing in puberty, but I assume from my own experiences it could have to do with how people begin to treat them. How men begin to treat them.

And the reality is that breasts develop and are visible through clothing.

I'm sorry--it's ridiculous to assume women should wear burkas--that's on par with men wearing blindfolds to me. The answer is men controlling how they treat women and girls--not like objects, but like human beings. If you're so keen on women covering their whole body, maybe you should consider just covering your eyes--it'd take a lot less fabric and probably be more fair anyway.

But when I read about breast ironing, something about it made so much sense. Of course--because as much as people in this thread are complaining about dress--it all comes down to visibility. And the reality is that it's not easy to stop a human from developing characteristics like breasts.

And it's wrong--it's wrong that girls should have their breasts bound tightly, to prevent them from growing, or having them squished with rocks or other things to try to break the breast tissue apart and keep them bound better.

It's messed up to say that a girl has culpability because her body begins growing a certain way.

When I exposed my breasts, as I have many times--at nude beaches and at a rainbow gathering and at a party once, when I had my face painted like a tiger, it was for me.

And I think it makes sense--because breasts seem to be an issue in the social sphere, they have all kinds of associations, but by my just being topless I felt that I was able to just be myself--no matter what anyone else thought of me. That it is just honesty--it's just the reality of your form. There isn't anything "scanty" or anything provocative about it--it's just your body and no one can make associations on it if you don't accept them.

It's deeply personal to me and I don't expect or care for anyone to want to understand that, but I don't read into it with the things some of the people in this thread have. It is just the way a person's body is. It's not anything more. Choosing to show yourself the way you are doesn't mean much beyond that.

I think society is more warped that they assign so many weird associations to parts of one's body.
 

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If you're telling a woman that she should cover up to prevent being sexually assaulted, all you're doing is telling them: "make sure they assault some other woman". That's not a reasonable response to any of this.

That said, it's true that you can't directly prevent these things from happening sometimes. All we can do as a society is make sure that the offenders can't get away with the small things so that they are less likely to try the big things.
This means that as a society we need to speak up when someone touches someone else without their consent, it means we need to speak up when someone makes a remark that normalizes sexual misconduct and it means we need to take action when someone crosses the line, even a little bit. If someone feels like the small things are socially acceptable, they are more likely to take more liberties, so make sure that you speak up when you see or hear something inappropriate.

That's the only way to create a safe and equal environment.
 

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If you're telling a woman that she should cover up to prevent being sexually assaulted, all you're doing is telling them: "make sure they assault some other woman". That's not a reasonable response to any of this.
That's not even a reasonable inference in the first place. According to your logic, "learn how to defend yourself so bullies won't pick on you" means, "make sure they bully some other kid". Argue against the points he makes. Not the ones you make up on his behalf please.
 

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That's not even a reasonable inference in the first place. According to your logic, "learn how to defend yourself so bullies won't pick on you" means, "make sure they bully some other kid". Argue against the points he makes. Not the ones you make up on his behalf please.
That is basically what you're saying in that case though and it's why bullies always find a target.

If we teach kids to speak up to bullies regardless of their target and to not normalize aggressive behaviour, it can go a long way towards stopping bullying.
That said, bullying is kind of a different horse, because to an extent, part of growing up is finding out how you relate to others and how you can exist in a group. Some difficulties are to be expected, since children need to learn how to handle conflict and stuff like that.

That said, feel free to disagree with the validity of what I'm saying. Just know that if you're telling girls to cover up because they should fear what men might do to them otherwise, you're actively harming someone else. Sexual assaulters aren't hopeless victims to their whims. They are calculating predators who are just waiting for a chance to find a target.
Yes, they exist in degrees and that one boss at work who keeps on makking suggestive remarks to their secretary isn't literally the same as that guy who waits in the bushes for some lone girl to walk by, but it's all part of the same culture and if you condone the behaviour of that boss, you're giving him green light to take another step on that path.

I'm not really here to convince any of the scary types that want to control women and take away their right to choose for themselves what to wear, those people are beyond saving I'm afraid.
I'm here to try and make the people around them aware that they have some agency in the situation and can help those girls, just by letting the predators know that what they're doing is not normal and that they're being watched. If I can convince at least one person to start being more vigilant and tell someone off for crossing the line, it will have been worth it.
 

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That is basically what you're saying in that case though and it's why bullies always find a target.

If we teach kids to speak up to bullies regardless of their target and to not normalize aggressive behaviour, it can go a long way towards stopping bullying.
That said, bullying is kind of a different horse, because to an extent, part of growing up is finding out how you relate to others and how you can exist in a group. Some difficulties are to be expected, since children need to learn how to handle conflict and stuff like that.

That said, feel free to disagree with the validity of what I'm saying. Just know that if you're telling girls to cover up because they should fear what men might do to them otherwise, you're actively harming someone else. Sexual assaulters aren't hopeless victims to their whims. They are calculating predators who are just waiting for a chance to find a target.
Yes, they exist in degrees and that one boss at work who keeps on makking suggestive remarks to their secretary isn't literally the same as that guy who waits in the bushes for some lone girl to walk by, but it's all part of the same culture and if you condone the behaviour of that boss, you're giving him green light to take another step on that path.

I'm not really here to convince any of the scary types that want to control women and take away their right to choose for themselves what to wear, those people are beyond saving I'm afraid.
I'm here to try and make the people around them aware that they have some agency in the situation and can help those girls, just by letting the predators know that what they're doing is not normal and that they're being watched. If I can convince at least one person to start being more vigilant and tell someone off for crossing the line, it will have been worth it.
I can't get behind your reasoning. It's absurd. A kid learning to defend themselves means one less kid being bullied.

As much as I disagree with your line of reasoning, I agree with the general idea that women covering up is not enough on it's own. In the end, men fear other men. None of the degenerates in my area ever looked in my sister's direction because after one of them was spotted trying to casually chat her up, he ended up in a wheelchair. Still, it's beside the point the guy was making. A woman can't expect everyone around her to stand up for her every time a degenerate wants to take advantage of her. The only person she can rely on at all times is herself and she would be wise to do everything in her power to keep herself safe. Just because you can't effect change on the societal level doesn't mean you should give up on yourself. That's just stupid.
 

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Maybe I'm not that woke so had to bring my question here.

Would you date a girl that regularly hangs out topless in front of people? Like when on trips/vacation type situations.
What about a girl that, when she gets drunk and is partying, will sometimes show her boobs? Like flash people.

None of my friends girlfriends/fiances/wives would ever do something like that but maybe I'm not open minded enough.

What are your thoughts/experiences?

I get that it's ultimately up to me and my feelings on this but I'm curious what other peoples thoughts are or if they have any similar experiences and they could share what they've learned from knowing that person or being involved with that person
I'm not single, but if I were, sure. I've seen a bunch of topless dudes that didn't look great topless and they have the same nipples... And apparently that's "fine". So if she were cool and I liked her, that's not a deal breaker. I don't have a problem with women being topless anywhere men can be.

Also none of your girlfriends/fiances/wives would do that? You got a harem or cult, bro?
 
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Anecdotally, the whole argument of "cover up to not be harassed" is somewhat amusing when myself and almost every woman I know was first grossly hit on, propositioned, manipulated into something etc before being 15, and typically by a much older dude.

I guess my super sheltered, raised religious, very naïeve 12 year old self in denim overalls, with a red shirt with a gold star was really, really asking for a group of guys mostly in their 20s working at the resort my family was vacationing to tell me I needed to give them a key to my room in order for them to rent me a bike or sail boat. I thought that was just standard procedure, because i was a dumb kid, so i left the room key. Spoiler alert: it wasn't. They were being gross. Or you know, it was the sexy, baggy denim overalls and normal t shirt, i should have worn a refrigerator box instead.
 
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I wrote this on a soap box this morning and have gone back and forth about deleting or posting it, but I'll just post so I can move on and stop procrastinating everything I'm supposed to be doing by arguing on the internet about boobs...lol

But it's another consideration about toplessness and the consequences that society's stigma against nudity can have on women and girls:

(edit: I guess I'll remove the word "troglodytes" as I used it way too much and it's not that helpful--I just feel angry when people do hurtful things to other people)

Carrying self defense tools like pepper spray, tasers, stun guns, or tactical flashlights...as well as alarms to draw attention to anything happening. These can all be helpful if someone is physically threatening you.

When it comes to other types of bullying and threats, I think it can also be helpful for society to remove the stigma around women and girls' bodies and womens sexualities. Or at least try not to feed into that stigma when someone's struggling from being bullied with them.

To help the target of bullying to be more resilient with the support of the community? Rather than enabling the bully?

Especially if you look at these cases where there is a young girl, a teen often, who somehow someone gets a photo or video of her nude, and starts circulating it, and the girl has to deal with the violation of being exposed like that while also the stigma and shaming from onlookers in her community.

There have been too many that just kill themselves.

It's ridiculous that a girl's lack of nudity would be considered more valuable than a girl's life.

And communities might be able to help that in environments where nudity is more normal and less stigmatized.

Because it's still wrong to circulate revenge porn or other photos online, though it's becoming increasingly common as spying cameras get smaller and harder to detect and the internet gets faster and connects more bad guys, but a society could question it's assumptions about nudity and shame so that if it does happen, which it will, there is more support for a victim of something like this.

No one cares, once photos of someone topless are out, whether it was consensual or not. They are still treated with the same disrespect.

I think it's worth it to question the shamefulness of nudity when things like that happen, and perhaps maybe reflect on how it could be seen as more shameful to try to harm people than just being nude, as all of us are under our clothes.

I would be fine with nudity being seen as "cheaper" (humanity shouldn't have a price tag) if it helps people see the lives and wellness of girls as more valuable.

So that might be some considerations for challenging social taboos like this--even if I'm not saying everyone should be topless etc. It just might offer a perspective that maybe people haven't encountered.
 

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Sure, there's that in western nations but there are also tribes throughout the world where women aren't required by law or any unwritten social rules, to cover their breasts.

Bear in mind that this isn't something that I'd personally do or am even interested in doing. On the other hand, I have to acknowledge that my reticence is from being brainwashed since birth.
Note: Warning—topless women in the pics on this page.
Meet the naked tribes of Nigeria — where people wear leaves and little to nothing.
“Moving around naked or half-naked is our culture and we don’t care what people say about us,” the Maiunguwa said. “We are comfortable that way because we find it normal. What attracts men is not nudity. Our men are attracted by how women plait their hair, good manners and the tattoos the young ladies have. Western civilisation is another man’s culture. Why must we embrace it, leaving our own that was handed over to us by our forefathers?”
In this short article, there are expressed rules, if you will, in the mating/courtship areas.

I‘m not personally interested in doing it either.
Modesty pops into my head.
Yes, the evolution of the modern world does cause quite a reticence. I didn’t say Western world because there is an Eastern world that practices modesty too.
 
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