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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello. :proud:

Okay, so I made a thread about the "20 Reasons Why You're Still Single Women" as a somewhat of a parody to another thread called "20 Reasons Why You're Still Single Men". Well, my thread, surprisingly, got stickied and had some interesting replies there.

One of the posters pointed out that men cannot seem to "make their minds up", and I thought maybe men just like a woman who can balance two extremes in her personality, for example, not being too clingy but at the same time, not being too distant. And so on, and so on.

However, now that I'm thinking about it, I am actually starting to sense that the poster was right, and it makes me angry that people can be so... I don't know, indecisive about what kind of lover they want. No matter how hard you try to please a person, you're too "this" or "that"... You're either too quiet, or too loud. Too gushy/emotional, or too cold and mean. Too ugly, or too attractive. (Yes, some people can hate on you right off the bat if you happen to be, you know, pretty or whateves.)

This has been such a big problem in my life... I'm always too something for everyone involved in my life. My family, my past friends, lovers... I'm always told that I'm either on one extreme or the other that they don't like. I honestly don't know how to be perfect, I mean, I'm human... Right? :unsure:

How do you guys deal with ridiculous standards set by today's society? Where no matter how hard you try... It's not good enough.
 

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This topic is relevant to an experience i had last weekend, and the meditations that ended up spinning out of it....

I spent a bunch of days with someone who had a rather extreme case of dissatisfaction. Every moment, every perception for them, was some kind of judgment or comparison. Nothing was perceived as it was, nothing was appreciated, everything got picked apart for it's flaws. It was really interesting to me, because it's something i've seen in everyone, as you mentioned... even myself at times, but never to such an extent. Anyway what i gathered from it was that it didn't matter who was around, or what the situation was, or how great things were for anyone else.. this particular person was going to find something about it that "should" be different. For most people i don't imagine that perception to be so intense, but it still happens!

Anyway, what i do to deal with it, is remain positive (as cliche as it sounds). To me the universe is always beautiful, each person is profound. I will never be someone's image of perfection...however, knowing that my perspective exists.. that a person can be beautiful and imperfect, i know that certain people will perceive my own imperfections as being beautiful. It's not that society sets specific standards that are impossible, but instead that certain people (who appear to be in the majority.... maybe, maybe not) always expect more, and never appreciate what they've got. I say, if someone judges you based their own preconceptions... that person will not be able to make you happy anyway. Open minded people exist! They reject judgment and love the world! You just need to find some :laughing:
 

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I don't really know. Obviously, society's expectations are ingrained in me. I just try and be myself as much as I can, while not being too crazy.

As a guy, if I want you, I want you. I don't care about anything else. If there are problems, the relationship would be too important for me not to try to work them out.
 

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The standards that society demands (PARTICULARLY GENDER STANDARDS) are friggin' ridiculous. If a guy wants to pick a flower, let him pick the damn flower. If a girl wants to read comic books and hates painting her nails, friggin' DEAL WITH IT. :angry: :dry:
It's a lot worse for a guy to do something feminine than a girl to do something masculine. Tom boy is an affectionate term. What affectionate term is there for an effeminate man? God I hate Gender roles.
 

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There's no such thing as societal standards. There's just other people's standards. You don't have relationships with society. You have relationships with another person and either you meet that other person's standards or you don't. Society doesn't care about your relationships. Other people or groups of other people may care about your relationship if it doesn't fit their particular ideology but society doesn't care.

Society doesn't care if you don't have a car, if you still live with your parents, if you're quiet, if you talk too much, yada, yada, yada. The person you want to date might.

If you don't meet that person's standards, you can't blame society because society doesn't set that person's dating standards. Their individual values set their standards. Those values largely comes from parents. So if you're too whatever for someone and you want to blame something, you should probably blame the parents for passing their values onto their kids.
 

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It's a lot worse for a guy to do something feminine than a girl to do something masculine. Tom boy is an affectionate term. What affectionate term is there for an effeminate man? God I hate Gender roles.
Believe me, I'm just as disgusted as it as you are. I hate how people can be so intolerant. :(
 

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Have sex with as many women as possible to secure offspring <-> Make sure the woman who's cooking your kill is actually raising your offspring
Get pregnant with as strong a man as possible <-> Get a man who brings home food and doesn't leave you

Duality is a human specialty. Doesn't matter how modern and civilized we pretend to be, we're destined to have contradicting wants and needs.


That being said, seeing you seem to hate on gender standards, it's all a matter of determination. I don't know if it's something others can teach you, but I certainly try. In my years of fighting social standards I have come to terms with accepting that I actually do fill some of them. Initially I was preoccupied with opposing everything, which is as contradicting as fitting in with everything, but now a days I do what I want so long as it doesn't hurt others. My physical appearance doesn't match the standards, though my spirit when strongest is so intense few bother questioning my ways.

I'm not sure, again, that it is possible for me to teach others to accept what and how they are and be themselves. I can only encourage it and show them how I attempt to be myself. Instead of agreeing with your peers that gender stereotypes suck and that you hate pretending to be something you're not, get up on your hind legs, throw those rocks at your oppressors, and row row fight the power! Don't believe in yourself, believe in me who believes in you! Yours is the drill that will pierce the heavens!
 

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If we followed other peoples standards we wouldnt be unique, instead following others ideas of how they vision the world should be....... which makes all social standards opinions. yeh I stated the obvious.
 

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That's a good point about social standards not being social standards. Totay there are many more subcultures, with their own standards, sometimes very loose. Although I think in many ways society is too fractured... digression. Gender standards are still almost universal, though, and in part that's probably fundamental human nature. If people want to cross gender norms, that's their choice. But I don't think it is worthwhile for most people. For most of human history, women have been expected to adorn themselves. Likewise, men have been expected to look physically fit (unless rich/privileged). (Those standards have been looser for older people, for obvious reasons.) I'm not denying that standards have increased lately or that many people judge too much on looks. That being said, there's too much approval or even back-slapping in this forum about looking sloppy or like a fairy tale character and not caring about society's rules. I think if most INFPs were to meet each other, they'd not feel much "chemistry" with each other, all because the visual effort is lacking. (But naturally highly attractive INFPs would do well, and non-ugly women usually can have some success with decent-looking men, as long as someone is aggressive.) Also, regardless of looks, the sedentary tendency is very unhealthy. Warped principles causing self-sabotage, people. There is plenty of room to look manly or womanly in an interesting way that disregards mainstream expectations (who cares about toenails?!) - maybe more room for that than decades ago - and it doesn't require much work. I won't even get into the impact of appearance on other things in life. My own philosophy is to care about how I look and disregard most other social standards, and I feel I can get away with some of that disregard due to how I look. I was a miserable, outcast person when disregarding almost everything.
 
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I am precisely the kind of INFP Wisdom dislikes, and that's okay. Societal standards do exist, but I will choose what is most authentic for me as an individual. Some may say that this idea of fighting a vague, shadowy image of "the masses," an abstract, dynamic enemy, seems unrealistic. The thing is, we are capable of being influenced by peer pressure and group opinions. A person who might have grown up liking one thing may like something completely different because he was exposed to other people's expectations and standards all of his life. Sometimes it takes courage to live out of context, to explore yourself, and to know who you would be if there were nobody telling you to be someone else. If I want to have hairy legs, dress in rags, and dance around wearing my sparkling purple fairy wings, that is my right, and the kinds of people who would judge me negatively for it are not the kinds I would want in my orbit anyhow. Wisdom treats his preferences as though they were universal, but there are always exceptions who have escaped. I am one of them.
 

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I try to ignore social standards and try not to associate myself with people who care about such rubbish. But since I don't live isolated on a mountain peak it's easier said than done.
 

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There's no such thing as societal standards. There's just other people's standards. You don't have relationships with society. You have relationships with another person and either you meet that other person's standards or you don't. Society doesn't care about your relationships. Other people or groups of other people may care about your relationship if it doesn't fit their particular ideology but society doesn't care.

Society doesn't care if you don't have a car, if you still live with your parents, if you're quiet, if you talk too much, yada, yada, yada. The person you want to date might.

If you don't meet that person's standards, you can't blame society because society doesn't set that person's dating standards. Their individual values set their standards. Those values largely comes from parents. So if you're too whatever for someone and you want to blame something, you should probably blame the parents for passing their values onto their kids.
Where do other people's standards come from? Society. What they see impacts what they set for themselves. A person's vision of themself also impacts their standards.

Gosh. There are standards from society. I doubt the world would improve much if competition was eliminated due to a lack of "standards". How would you compare yourself to someone else if you can't even standardise yourself against something?

Don't confuse personal values with standards. They're not the same thing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I think some people got me mixed up... I'm not talking about gender roles. I'm talking about how contradicting and ridiculous society's standards in people in general are nowadays.
 

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...How do you guys deal with ridiculous standards set by today's society? Where no matter how hard you try... It's not good enough.
Some of those standards are pants and consumer based. I guess living up to one's own standards is key, not what someone else tells you what to do.

pants - adjective

inadequate, displeasing, or of poor quality. Possible origin: underwear, called "pants" in Britain.

See more words meaning: bad, poor, sucks, common, generally displeasing
 

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Where do other people's standards come from? Society. What they see impacts what they set for themselves. A person's vision of themself also impacts their standards.

Gosh. There are standards from society. I doubt the world would improve much if competition was eliminated due to a lack of "standards". How would you compare yourself to someone else if you can't even standardise yourself against something?

Don't confuse personal values with standards. They're not the same thing.
This is where you and I disagree. I don't think other people's standards comes from this amorphous thing called society. Since context of the thread was relationships, I kept my reply in that context, standards in a relationship, instead of no standards = no improvement of the world. In other words, don't use the Induhvidual Debating Technique:

----------------------------------------------------------------

The Induhvidual debating technique involves four steps:

1. Exaggerate your opponent's statement into an absurd absolute.
2. Make an inappropriate analogy.
3. Change the topic to something easier to defend.
4. Claim victory.

For example:


Me: Vegetables are good for you. ( There are no societal standards.)

Induhvidual: That's ridiculous. If you ate a truckload of
vegetables all at once you would die. (I doubt the world would improve much if competition was eliminated due to a lack of "standards".)

Me: No one eats a truckload all at once. ( I didn't say there was no such thing as standards. I said there was no societal standard which I used in context of a relationship.)

Induhvidual: Let me give you an analogy. If you tried to swim
across the ocean, and you didn't know how to swim,
and you had no arms or legs, you'd never make it.
Surely you can agree with that. (How would you compare yourself to someone else if you can't even standardise yourself against something?)

Me: Um...that's different.

Induhvidual: Ha! So now you agree with me that swimming is good
exercise!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So back to my main point. There is no such thing as societal standards in relation to dating.

A standard is a basis of comparison, a reference point. However, people don't use a societal standard, they use a personal standard which doesn't come from society.

For example, most people want to date relative equals. You don't want to date someone who's significantly less intelligent. So if you're a Mensa member, you're not comparing against the society standard deviation of intelligence, you want someone who's as smart as you, a personal standard. This goes for things like beauty and income among other things.

Standards are points of comparison. What you choose as a standard is derived from values. They are not the same thing, but one is based upon the other. Values come first. What gets chosen as a standard comes after. It's not the other way around.

I disagree with your statement: "Where do other people's standards come from? Society." You don't look at how "society" compares stuff and say, gee that's what I should adopt as my personal value. At best, you look at your important social groups (whether it's religious, work, friends, peers or family) and adopt their values as a basis for choosing standards against which you compare yourself and other people against.
 

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I am precisely the kind of INFP Wisdom dislikes, and that's okay. Societal standards do exist, but I will choose what is most authentic for me as an individual. Some may say that this idea of fighting a vague, shadowy image of "the masses," an abstract, dynamic enemy, seems unrealistic. The thing is, we are capable of being influenced by peer pressure and group opinions. A person who might have grown up liking one thing may like something completely different because he was exposed to other people's expectations and standards all of his life. Sometimes it takes courage to live out of context, to explore yourself, and to know who you would be if there were nobody telling you to be someone else. If I want to have hairy legs, dress in rags, and dance around wearing my sparkling purple fairy wings, that is my right, and the kinds of people who would judge me negatively for it are not the kinds I would want in my orbit anyhow. Wisdom treats his preferences as though they were universal, but there are always exceptions who have escaped. I am one of them.
I was talking about disliking the sinner, not the sin, though if you're going to keep miscasting me as an oppressor.... The preferences are near-universals. No one is impressed by "disheveled" or totally out of shape (well, maybe "chubby chasers, who tend to also like other looks); and extreme quirk is off-putting. I happen to like moderate quirk (sign of someone interesting and maybe worth knowing), but it's of little sexual appeal to me and probably most other people. To state frankly what I implied before, even most of the INFPs who dress as though they don't care what others think would not react very well in person to unfamiliar faces who do just that and prefer romantic partners who mostly meet conventional standards. Your meme is toxic; mine is meant to help people. The INFPs here who present themselves offline as rather ordinary, reasonably attractive people generally probably are doing better in life than their radical or tuned-out peers.

The original post was about increasingly contradictory standards ? Wouldn't have guessed it, didn't notice any overt examples. Yes, I suppose so, but I'm so full of contradictions and disinterested in most standards that that hardly bothers me.
 
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It's a lot worse for a guy to do something feminine than a girl to do something masculine. Tom boy is an affectionate term. What affectionate term is there for an effeminate man? God I hate Gender roles.
I love doing things that seem interesting to me. Think about it, you only live once, so why worry about what people will say?
 
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