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ok, now to get feedback on an opinion of mine about the shadow. I'll use INTJ as my primary example, but it's the system of shadow relations I want to emphasize here.

firstly, I'll quote an older post of mine to sum up my belief on what I consider the misconception that the shadow is simply what you express when you're angry or under stress. (to some extent it is the case, but too often it's spoke as if it's a mental switch you hit that you just become in the mode of, when simply isn't the case I see)

I believe personality types resemble their supplements when stressed. N/S, T/F, and P/J switching, but the introversion/extroversion stays the same. (Under stress, wouldn't you be more likely to be MORE introverted/extroverted than normal?)

ENTJ - ESFP (TeNi SeFi -> SeFi TeNi)
ESTP - ENFJ (SeTi FeNi -> FeNi SeTi)
ISFJ - INTP (SiFe TiNe -> TiNe SiFe)
INFP - ISTJ (FiNe SiTe -> SiTe FiNe)

Notice the similarities of the functions, an INTJ does not suddenly start using Se over Fi imho. And, under stress they'll resemble unhealthy versions of the supplement type, as naturally suppressed functions will play a different role than someone who has those functions as their dom / aux functions.

Shadow functions are much harder to describe the use of, but I do believe all people use all functions and not simply the ones they prefer most. The "shadow" is not simply all the letters you're not in my eyes. I'm beginning to wonder if shadow functions are used regularly in order to procrastinate and improvise in order to prevent using more suppressed functions as a means of avoiding stress, but that's a whole different topic. As far as shadow functions go, I believe these are accurate examples:

ESTJ (TeSi NeFi / TiSe NiFe) ISTP
INTJ (NiTe FiSe / NeTi FeSi) ENTP
ENFP (NeFi TeSi / NiFe TiSe) INFJ
ESFJ (FeSi NeTi / FiSe NiTe) ISFP

But yeah, I believe in resembling supplement types more than opposites. I think a lot of people have an appreciation for their supplement types too, even if they're not attracted to them romantically.
...if anything.
now to give a bit of personal experience into how I've come to these conclusions.

when in an unhealthy frame of mind, I become more prone to lash out at people who invade my space or attack me personally. I resemble an unhealthy ISFP a lot more so than ESFP or ENTP in these instances, motivated more by validating my own conclusions with proof and in the process sometimes doing so by inappropriate indulgences than trying to convince people to my way of thinking. stressed expression, basically.

why would we start using Se before Fi...? if anything, that to me indicates personality changing that so many people are convinced can never happen no matter how much influence you take externally.

I see INTJs as having 4 archetypes of different levels of tapping into our shadow. one introverted function, one extroverted. of course, this alone is not enough for one person to operate so excuse my simplification of MBTI types down to two functions.

INTJ - ISFP - ENTP - ESFJ
NiTe -> FiSe -> NeTi -> FeSi.

it's a process, not a stage. and I believe people consciously and subconsciously lean towards trying to prevent using the lesser embraced (usually less developed) functions by a procrastination of enjoying our primary 1st-4th functions.

what gets tricky here, is that very often users of one of their primary and auxiliary functions register very high usage of their counterpart function on Function Use tests. (High Ne use for an xNxJ, Fi use for xxFJ types)

what needs to be acknowledged here, is the internal and external uses of the same function. for example, I often have an internal dialogue of Te. this type of reasoning is critical to my own thought process as much as possible before expressing myself, while still being expansive on external standards. this is likely why I identify with Ti-typical behaviour in those tests. it isn't true Ti, but it outwardly likely appears as Ti often does. leading me into my next belief.

I belief shadow functions (NeTiFeSi for me) are used constantly, almost exclusively by the subconscious on a regular basis. they work complimenting our primary psyche/conscious perception of ourselves in reducing and avoiding causes of stress. this is a possible explanation for the shadow being extroverted while my primary psyche is introverted. it's the partner of the indulgent state of mind, if you're an extrovert type, your inner introvert shadow functions work letting you externalize yourself if possible.

this is the extent of my conclusions so far, and of course I'm still open to being persuaded into other ways of looking at it but ultimately I'm modifying my own understanding and perspective so I won't buy completely into other beliefs even if they make sense, as I see some sense and value in my conclusions so far.

...
what are YOUR thoughts on this concept?
does the supplement-stress-archetype hold true for you?
which is the myth, that MBTI types use only 4 functions, or everyone using all functions?​
 

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According to Jung the Inferior and Tertiary functions are unconscious, repressed, and form a "second personality" within the Shadow.

Also, the extraverted and introverted functions are not seperate from each other, there are not 8 functions, there are 4 functions with extroverted and introverted attitude. If you are a Si Dominant and an Ne Inferior you simply do not have Se and Ni. The Auxiliary and Tertiary functions are not strongly differentiated and can be extraverted or introverted depending on the needs on the Dominant-Inferior Axis.

As an ISTJ I have a Ne+F shadow. When I am stressed gut-level fearful and paranoid thoughts colored by value judgements force themselves into my consciousness. And even when I'm not stressed I tend to project this shadow on others (That is, I get annoyed when I see ENFP-ish-ness in others because I tend to deny those same things in myself).
 

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ok, now to get feedback on an opinion of mine about the shadow. I'll use INTJ as my primary example, but it's the system of shadow relations I want to emphasize here.

firstly, I'll quote an older post of mine to sum up my belief on what I consider the misconception that the shadow is simply what you express when you're angry or under stress. (to some extent it is the case, but too often it's spoke as if it's a mental switch you hit that you just become in the mode of, when simply isn't the case I see)



now to give a bit of personal experience into how I've come to these conclusions.

when in an unhealthy frame of mind, I become more prone to lash out at people who invade my space or attack me personally. I resemble an unhealthy ISFP a lot more so than ESFP or ENTP in these instances, motivated more by validating my own conclusions with proof and in the process sometimes doing so by inappropriate indulgences than trying to convince people to my way of thinking. stressed expression, basically.

why would we start using Se before Fi...? if anything, that to me indicates personality changing that so many people are convinced can never happen no matter how much influence you take externally.

I see INTJs as having 4 archetypes of different levels of tapping into our shadow. one introverted function, one extroverted. of course, this alone is not enough for one person to operate so excuse my simplification of MBTI types down to two functions.

INTJ - ISFP - ENTP - ESFJ
NiTe -> FiSe -> NeTi -> FeSi.

it's a process, not a stage. and I believe people consciously and subconsciously lean towards trying to prevent using the lesser embraced (usually less developed) functions by a procrastination of enjoying our primary 1st-4th functions.

what gets tricky here, is that very often users of one of their primary and auxiliary functions register very high usage of their counterpart function on Function Use tests. (High Ne use for an xNxJ, Fi use for xxFJ types)

what needs to be acknowledged here, is the internal and external uses of the same function. for example, I often have an internal dialogue of Te. this type of reasoning is critical to my own thought process as much as possible before expressing myself, while still being expansive on external standards. this is likely why I identify with Ti-typical behaviour in those tests. it isn't true Ti, but it outwardly likely appears as Ti often does. leading me into my next belief.

I belief shadow functions (NeTiFeSi for me) are used constantly, almost exclusively by the subconscious on a regular basis. they work complimenting our primary psyche/conscious perception of ourselves in reducing and avoiding causes of stress. this is a possible explanation for the shadow being extroverted while my primary psyche is introverted. it's the partner of the indulgent state of mind, if you're an extrovert type, your inner introvert shadow functions work letting you externalize yourself if possible.

this is the extent of my conclusions so far, and of course I'm still open to being persuaded into other ways of looking at it but ultimately I'm modifying my own understanding and perspective so I won't buy completely into other beliefs even if they make sense, as I see some sense and value in my conclusions so far.

...
what are YOUR thoughts on this concept?
does the supplement-stress-archetype hold true for you?
which is the myth, that MBTI types use only 4 functions, or everyone using all functions?​
Interesting concept but this isn't really shadow function theory. There's a long explanation of the shadow functions in the http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/87243-fe-vs-fi.html thread. Also http://personalitycafe.com/cognitiv...k-guide-understanding-jungian-psychology.html goes into great detail on the ego/shadow relationship. You might also check out Evolving the Eight-Function Model « Type Insights.

That being said people do not use their shadow functions. It's more like the functions use you. They are essentially behavioral manifestations of unconscious complexes, but because they are unconscious you have no awareness of them while they're being constellated (so no one would really be aware of using say Shadow Ne, for instance, even though a CF test might pick up an associated behavior). They're called shadow because they're unconscious you don't know about them. That being said because the shadow is not under the control of the ego, anything that comes from the shadow will largely be perceived negatively by the ego so you would not perceive use of Te, for example, as a positive thing. It would only arise when constellated by certain negative circumstances, but if someone pointed it out, the ego's inclination is to say "that's not me," or project it as something other people are doing wrong, not something you see in yourself.

There's a lot more on this topic, but it's all stated elsewhere on the links that I provided.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
If you are a Si Dominant and an Ne Inferior you simply do not have Se and Ni..
I respectfully disagree.

As an ISTJ I have a Ne+F shadow. When I am stressed gut-level fearful and paranoid thoughts colored by value judgements force themselves into my consciousness. And even when I'm not stressed I tend to project this shadow on others (That is, I get annoyed when I see ENFP-ish-ness in others because I tend to deny those same things in myself).
Ok, but in that case why is your shadow ENFP as opposed to INFP? the exact same 4 functions are used. I don't see the reasoning behind suddenly using Ne over Fi? (or get annoyed when you see it in others for that matter)

Interesting concept but this isn't really shadow function theory. There's a long explanation of the shadow functions in the http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/87243-fe-vs-fi.html thread. Also http://personalitycafe.com/cognitiv...k-guide-understanding-jungian-psychology.html goes into great detail on the ego/shadow relationship. You might also check out Evolving the Eight-Function Model « Type Insights.
wow, that's a lot of reading. realistically, it will take me a LONG time to get through all that information so I'm not going to stop posting this thread in the mean time, rather, I'll use it as a source for reading for later use. thank you, especially for the Evolving the Eight-Function Model link.

That being said people do not use their shadow functions. It's more like the functions use you. They are essentially behavioral manifestations of unconscious complexes, but because they are unconscious you have no awareness of them while they're being constellated (so no one would really be aware of using say Shadow Ne, for instance, even though a CF test might pick up an associated behavior). They're called shadow because they're unconscious you don't know about them. That being said because the shadow is not under the control of the ego, anything that comes from the shadow will largely be perceived negatively by the ego so you would not perceive use of Te, for example, as a positive thing. It would only arise when constellated by certain negative circumstances, but if someone pointed it out, the ego's inclination is to say "that's not me," or project it as something other people are doing wrong, not something you see in yourself.
well yeah, I didn't mean to imply the shadow was under conscious control of the ego. I agree with what you're saying completely. when I said you use shadow functions I wasn't referring to the ego by "you", rather the collective mental capacity including both the ego and shadow.
 

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Ok so I want to try and apply this to myself... based on your theory, is this what the stages look like for an ENTP?

ENTP - ESFJ - INTJ - ISFP
NeTi -> FeSi -> NiTe -> FiSe

I can definitely relate to the idea about the strength of the shadow of the dominant function. While I can't exactly describe it, I definitely feel like I utilize Ni almost as much as Ne (inductive vs. deductive). In fact, I often try to make sense of things that seem weird/random with Ni. I also can relate to the same feeling you have with Te, but with Ti — it's internal, but I often relate to the way Te is described because I outwardly project Ti (which kinda looks like Te).

I'm not as sure about how/when I use Se, but the best way I can define it for myself is that I use Ne to think about the possibilities of the here and now, whereas Se is the concrete happenings of here and now. I have actually been trying to cultivate this kind of mindful awareness, and it is really fucking hard (that's what she said).

I can definitely see my progression from ESFJ (manifesting as people-pleasing and rigidity), to INTJ (manifesting as being withdrawn and overly judgmental of my work/thoughts/ideas or those around me), and then finally to ISFP (manifesting as a "me first" attitude, which shows up as a shunning of the routine/rigidity by excessively procrastinating). Of course, all of these describe how I can see the various functions manifesting for me, but this is with limited understanding of both myself and all of the functions (and how they work together).

All in all, I think it's a cool theory, and I look forward to reading more. =]
 

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Warning: The following post may be full of stupid conclusions and should not be taken seriously.

A long time ago, when I first started reading about cognitive functions, shadow and such, I used to see things like this:
(Remember, this was a theory made out of ignorance, and the functions probably don't work like this. Maybe they do, but they probably don't. I just posting because it may be an interesting approach to someone).

I have, as an ENFP, Ne,Fi,Te,Si. I use Ne and Fi most of the time. Why? Because they're easier for me to use, It's more natural. When I have some problem I need to solve I "analyze" it through Ne and Fi, and through them I come to a solution, right? But what if it doesn't happen? What if it is a problem that I can't "solve" through NeFi? I try and try, until I'm stressed from trying to hard. My subconcious then tries to approach things in a different perspective, using Si and Te as a last resort to solve the problem.

Somehow the brain decides our main functions, it may be in the mothers womb, or when we are babys, it says "I feel like having a preference for NeFi, but I better have a 'plan B', so I'll develop the opposite functions, just in case".

As for using all functions Yes. I used to se it like this:

I Perceive things through Ne and Judge them through Fi, right? Yes, but what if we're perceiving and judging things through all the functions all the time and the preferred functions just have the last word? Or maybe there is a order for the use of the functions and we just stop perceiving/judging when we have the 'desired' or maybe 'adequate' perceivement[?]/judgement.
Let's poorly illustrate:
I see a basket ball. I perceive several things about the basketball through, not necessarily in this order, Ne, Se,Ni,Si.
Let's say it does happen in this order, why does Si is last? Because it's the opposite of the preferred function, so it's the function I 'trust' less. Why did I put Se as second? I'm a Perceiver, which means I prefer (trust sounds better) my extroverted perceiving functions more than the introverted ones. (It actually doesn't mean that, that's just how I saw things).
Most of the time the desired or adequate perceivement (dear god) would come from Ne because it's more developed, sometimes from Se if Ne is not enough. But when both of them don't achieve the desired or adequate I get stressed (at this point I probably insisted in using them both several times). When stressed Si takes over and turns the table (Si, Ni, Se, Ne).
So, rewind. I perceive something and my Judging Functions judge if it's a desired or adequate perceivement (SERIOUSLY, what goddamned word should I use?), my judging funtions -most likelly Fi- will probably pick what Ne perceived since it's the most developed function and it will probably give the best result. and then I use what I've gathered to work on a problem. If the problem is solved, great, my mind works, I continue with my life. If it's not, time to use a different approach. Plan B. My mind isn't prepared to use the tools for plan B, it's a stressful process, but it will try. This time I use Te to pick which perceiving function is right, and since I already used what Ne perceived, Te will chose what Si or Ni will perceive.

OR MAYBE it's trial and error. A NeFi (is it right to say that a xxxP perceives and then Judges?) person will try several combinations of functions, like Ne+Fi, Ne+Ti, and then, Se+Fi, Se+Ti, and if this doesn't work, it gets stressed, switches to plan B and goes: Si+Te, Si+Fe, then Ni+Te, Ni+Fe.

There's a third maybe, but it's stupid as hell.



As for now, I don't know how to explain the Shadows. I don't know what theory is right or wrong.
Sorry for the long post.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Ok so I want to try and apply this to myself... based on your theory, is this what the stages look like for an ENTP?

ENTP - ESFJ - INTJ - ISFP
NeTi -> FeSi -> NiTe -> FiSe

I can definitely relate to the idea about the strength of the shadow of the dominant function. While I can't exactly describe it, I definitely feel like I utilize Ni almost as much as Ne (inductive vs. deductive). In fact, I often try to make sense of things that seem weird/random with Ni. I also can relate to the same feeling you have with Te, but with Ti — it's internal, but I often relate to the way Te is described because I outwardly project Ti (which kinda looks like Te).

I'm not as sure about how/when I use Se, but the best way I can define it for myself is that I use Ne to think about the possibilities of the here and now, whereas Se is the concrete happenings of here and now. I have actually been trying to cultivate this kind of mindful awareness, and it is really fucking hard (that's what she said).

I can definitely see my progression from ESFJ (manifesting as people-pleasing and rigidity), to INTJ (manifesting as being withdrawn and overly judgmental of my work/thoughts/ideas or those around me), and then finally to ISFP (manifesting as a "me first" attitude, which shows up as a shunning of the routine/rigidity by excessively procrastinating). Of course, all of these describe how I can see the various functions manifesting for me, but this is with limited understanding of both myself and all of the functions (and how they work together).

All in all, I think it's a cool theory, and I look forward to reading more. =]
pretty much!
although I'm sure you're quite aware of how my reasoning and belief system on this works, I think it should be emphasized (as to not imply anything to feed more arguments, tying loose ends if you will) that the large majority of the time under stress you will resemble ESFJ moreso than INTJ, and INTJ a lot moreso than ISFP.

which I'm confident you'd agree with anyway?

these are my own conclusions and I still really can't distinguish when I manifest behaviours or recognise my mental state of using Fe and Si constantly. kudos on your introspection.

Warning: The following post may be full of stupid conclusions and should not be taken seriously.

A long time ago, when I first started reading about cognitive functions, shadow and such, I used to see things like this:
(Remember, this was a theory made out of ignorance, and the functions probably don't work like this. Maybe they do, but they probably don't. I just posting because it may be an interesting approach to someone).

I have, as an ENFP, Ne,Fi,Te,Si. I use Ne and Fi most of the time. Why? Because they're easier for me to use, It's more natural. When I have some problem I need to solve I "analyze" it through Ne and Fi, and through them I come to a solution, right? But what if it doesn't happen? What if it is a problem that I can't "solve" through NeFi? I try and try, until I'm stressed from trying to hard. My subconcious then tries to approach things in a different perspective, using Si and Te as a last resort to solve the problem.

Somehow the brain decides our main functions, it may be in the mothers womb, or when we are babys, it says "I feel like having a preference for NeFi, but I better have a 'plan B', so I'll develop the opposite functions, just in case".

As for using all functions Yes. I used to se it like this:

I Perceive things through Ne and Judge them through Fi, right? Yes, but what if we're perceiving and judging things through all the functions all the time and the preferred functions just have the last word? Or maybe there is a order for the use of the functions and we just stop perceiving/judging when we have the 'desired' or maybe 'adequate' perceivement[?]/judgement.
Let's poorly illustrate:
I see a basket ball. I perceive several things about the basketball through, not necessarily in this order, Ne, Se,Ni,Si.
Let's say it does happen in this order, why does Si is last? Because it's the opposite of the preferred function, so it's the function I 'trust' less. Why did I put Se as second? I'm a Perceiver, which means I prefer (trust sounds better) my extroverted perceiving functions more than the introverted ones. (It actually doesn't mean that, that's just how I saw things).
Most of the time the desired or adequate perceivement (dear god) would come from Ne because it's more developed, sometimes from Se if Ne is not enough. But when both of them don't achieve the desired or adequate I get stressed (at this point I probably insisted in using them both several times). When stressed Si takes over and turns the table (Si, Ni, Se, Ne).
So, rewind. I perceive something and my Judging Functions judge if it's a desired or adequate perceivement (SERIOUSLY, what goddamned word should I use?), my judging funtions -most likelly Fi- will probably pick what Ne perceived since it's the most developed function and it will probably give the best result. and then I use what I've gathered to work on a problem. If the problem is solved, great, my mind works, I continue with my life. If it's not, time to use a different approach. Plan B. My mind isn't prepared to use the tools for plan B, it's a stressful process, but it will try. This time I use Te to pick which perceiving function is right, and since I already used what Ne perceived, Te will chose what Si or Ni will perceive.

OR MAYBE it's trial and error. A NeFi (is it right to say that a xxxP perceives and then Judges?) person will try several combinations of functions, like Ne+Fi, Ne+Ti, and then, Se+Fi, Se+Ti, and if this doesn't work, it gets stressed, switches to plan B and goes: Si+Te, Si+Fe, then Ni+Te, Ni+Fe.

There's a third maybe, but it's stupid as hell.



As for now, I don't know how to explain the Shadows. I don't know what theory is right or wrong.
Sorry for the long post.
don't judge yourself personally so hard. I support the fact that you're forming your own theories for the conclusions of self-awareness you've had so far based on your own experiences and influence from Jung theory. keep at it.

I still however believe your Se would be your least conscious and "developed" (in recognition by the ego at least) function of all though, despite being a perceiver. this being because judging and perceiving really aren't anything except indicators of which function in your primary state of ego consciousness is extroverted, as a xNxP, it's your intuition that's extroverted. I still believe the contrasting SJ function (Si) of an NP type would be more recognisable than Pe. (Ne and Se collectively)
 

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pretty much!
although I'm sure you're quite aware of how my reasoning and belief system on this works, I think it should be emphasized (as to not imply anything to feed more arguments, tying loose ends if you will) that the large majority of the time under stress you will resemble ESFJ moreso than INTJ, and INTJ a lot moreso than ISFP.
Indeed, that was how I understood and applied it. I also viewed each step as another level of health (much like the Enneagram), and the ISFP tendency would be the least healthy — in how it manifests in me.
 

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Interesting idea.
 
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