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I don't know if there is a big stink about this in other countries, but I'm going to preface this thread genesis with a bit of info on why this issue is important in Canada. Here is a link for more information:

Suicide of Rehtaeh Parsons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And here is a brief synopsis.

Rehtaeh Parsons was a 16 year old girl who was raped at a party where she had been drinking. Pictures and a video of the event were taken and posted online. Since then, the boys responsible for the act were tried for manufacturing and distributing child pornography, (which in my opinion is worse than just a sex offence on one's record). Rehtaeh attempted suicide by method of hanging herself after months of harassment at school over the matter. She wound up on life support for some time before they pulled the plug and she died. Since then the Canadian media and Rehtaeh's parents, along with the government have been raising awareness on the issues of consent for sex, cyber bullying and sexual harassment.

Since then, any and all controversial opinions on the subject of consent have been sensationalized on the news and in schools. The message is simple, rape is bad, you can't have sex with someone who doesn't consent to it.

Now, in the case of Rehtaeh Parsons, we have a textbook open and closed case of violation. There was videographic and photographic evidence to suggest that she was not consenting (she was unconscious). But the sensationalizing of the issue has opened up a huge can of worms and the one I want to talk about is the definition of consent. Apparently, after a person has had a few drinks, they are not capable of making correct choices for themselves and therefore are incapable of consent, even if they do in fact verbally consent. So now there are women going to bars, getting drunk and sleeping with men (also drunk) and regretting their decision the next day. Does that mean they were raped? While I'm not convinced, since the debate started, the definition of rape (not the legal definition, the social definition) changed from "having sex with someone who doesn't give their consent" to "having sex with any girl who is drunk." And the bigger issue for me is that if I get drunk and wind up having sex, I can't complain the next day that I was raped by some woman. To me, if she can complain, but I can't and we both feel the same way, isn't that a serious gender inequality? And before you judge based on the theory that a man with an erection is consenting, let me argue this. Every morning, I get morning wood. I'm not in the mood for sex, neither am I giving consent, it's just there.

So my question is, first, how much does a woman need to drink before her consent is negated? Second, why don't men have the same legal rights as women on this matter?

Also, if anyone can find a record of a woman in prison for raping a man, I would be very entertained to see it. I don't doubt it's there, I just can't find it.
 

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Hmm...it does get pretty tricky.

The basic issue is that anyone forced to engage in a sexual act unwillingly or unknowingly is being raped, regardless of circumstance, gender, presence of erection/body fluids/indicators of "arousal" or whatever.

I think the reason the seeming inequity favors women is because we live in a society where male dominance (and female subservience) has been the norm for so long that as our culture changes and redefines gender roles and values, these aspects are slow to catch up. We've been living in a society where rape was such an intrinsic, unquestioned experience for so long we are now being forced to redefine everything we thought we knew about what rape and consent actually mean. For instance, women were expected to perform certain "services" just for being alive or even part of this social system. Once they got married they were expected to perform regardless of actual consent or willingness and it was not considered rape in that context. And then you hear about cultures (such as, ahem, our own) where a woman who gets raped outside of wedlock is shamed, harassed, tortured, and sometimes even killed. Changing the underlying assumptions about rape, consent, and mutual sexuality is difficult because we have to go very deep to do so. The truth is, rape against males is just as much of a problem (a lot of children, male or female, face this injustice and if you think about it children can't defend themselves as easily as adults, especially adult males, can). I don't want to live in a society that does not value male consent and safety as much as a female's. But we have to face facts: in this society, for a female, it is more dangerous and inequitable sexually speaking. Our very sexual culture favors male needs, dominance, security. That's why all this "rape talk" and redefining of legal consent seems to favor women, because they are the ones abused by the system in the first place.

For the record, there are women charged all the time with sexual encounters with minors. It can be a bit difficult to overpower an adult male physically but if he is disadvantaged, compromised, or young, it is much easier and it does happen. Just look in the newspaper for an article about some teacher getting convicted for having relations with one of her young students, who, regardless of preference, couldn't really have meaningful consent.
 

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Wow just finished another thread about these matters and now this... something is clicking around it seems.

Since then, the boys responsible for the act were tried for manufacturing and distributing child pornography, (which in my opinion is worse than just a sex offence on one's record).
Because she was 16 I guess. Besides the pathetic fact calling a 16 year old a child, the chronicles are full of those trials. More than once an underage girl photographed herself and sent the pics to her classmates, and her parents sued them.

So my question is, first, how much does a woman need to drink before her consent is negated? Second, why don't men have the same legal rights as women on this matter?
We are B class citizens bro, because we have a penis. :tongue:
A site devoted to document all the legal discriminations we face, with sources and commentary, is A Voice for Men

Also, if anyone can find a record of a woman in prison for raping a man, I would be very entertained to see it. I don't doubt it's there, I just can't find it.
I think some female teacher having sex with her students faced some charges. Of course, those charges are ridiculous compared to what a man in same situation faces. A site you can browse for legal cases of this type is Community of the Wrongly Accused.
 

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I have been in that girl's position. I was 17 and he was 26. We were partying at home with a couple of friends (I was a freshman in college and lived with my partner, who was also in attendance), and I drank just enough to lose sections of time. He was more sober than I was, and he should have known better. There were people there that could have, and should have, stepped in. My partner took a video because he thought it was kinky. It happened several times with me in varying states of consciousness, even once while completely unconscious (I was filled in after I sobered up.)

Do I consider it rape? No. I knowingly put myself into that position. I should have known better, but I don't blame him for an honest mistake. I never even told him how I felt about it. It isn't worth the emotional mess that it would put him through.

Then again, that just might be my logic talking.

As for that girl's case, she made a very adult decision and wasn't prepared for the consequences. This is not victim blaming, but more of recognizing that the situation could have been avoided if everyone at that party had made better decisions. I do condemn the bullying she received, and those kids should not have spread photos of her. This is a sad thing, but even sadder since it could have been avoided. There were plenty of people there that could have said "hold on, this isn't right..."

I am upset that there is no such thing as Personal Accountability anymore, from either party. Why can't we all just be smart, decent human beings?

That being said, no one should be consenting to anything when their blood alcohol is above .08. If you aren't sober enough to drive a vehicle, you are not sober enough to make important decisions.

It actually pisses me off when this kind of shit happens to guys, because they're expected to suck it up lest they be labled a pussy, and few people believe them, or they congratulate the guy on getting laid. It's a fucked up double standard, and it shouldn't be a problem in such a "civilized" society. Don't fuckin' touch someone if they don't want you too! End of story! It should not be this hard to understand!
 

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Yeah, and let's all be clear here that not supporting rape tolerance is not the same as being in favor of double standards, for every guy who's tempted to come in here and say BUT WHAT ABOUT MEN'S RIGHTS?! :shocked:
 

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To both men and women, unless you have a really good relationship with the person and you are near certain they would consent if they were sober, I would suggest just not attempting anything while in that kind of compromising situation. You should both have an understanding beforehand of what your limits are so that your partner isn't confused by possible drunken pursuits that may occur.

That's my stance, though I personally don't have anyone outside my family that I would trust myself being intoxicated around.
 
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Sex without meaningful consent is rape. Drinking makes meaningful consent impossible because it impairs a person's inhibitions. Therefore, having sex with a drunk person is rape. If I were to have sex with my husband while he was drunk, even if he was begging for it, I would be a rapist. He trusts me not to take advantage of him. I always ask permission before engaging in any sexual activity, and I won't start until I hear a clear "yes."

When both people are drunk, things get a bit trickier. It is very common for men, sober and otherwise, to seek out drunk women as easy targets, and social pressures come into play. Men are often expected (by their peers) to have as much sex as possible, while women are given mixed messages about our sexuality. Alcohol is often used specifically for the purpose of sexual coercion. Some men have been known to drug women's drinks in order to get an unconscious victim, knowing that a drunk woman will be stigmatized by a slut-shaming culture and the crime will likely go unreported. When one considers the cultural context, drunk women are rightly thought of as more vulnerable than drunk men, and that is likely why there seems to be an imbalance when assigning culpability. It is probably that way for the sake of evening things out a bit.

Consider this: You can easily find conversations among men about the best ways to take advantage of drunk women for sexual gain, but there is no equivalent trend in which women popularly discuss how to sexually exploit drunk men. When men must take all of the blame for situations in which both partners were drunk, they are suffering the consequences of their own privilege, which sometimes backfires on them. That is how it seems to me.
 

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Also, if anyone can find a record of a woman in prison for raping a man, I would be very entertained to see it. I don't doubt it's there, I just can't find it.
Female Guards at Juvenile Jails Sexually Abuse Boys - Federal report estimates 8 to 10% of young prisoners report rape

Consider this: You can easily find conversations among men about the best ways to take advantage of drunk women for sexual gain, but there is no equivalent trend in which women popularly discuss how to sexually exploit drunk men. When men must take all of the blame for situations in which both partners were drunk, they are suffering the consequences of their own privilege, which sometimes backfires on them. That is how it seems to me.
Am I right in saying that the privilege you are referring to is that they(men) are physically less vulnerable?

From another perspective, you could say that women don't have to discuss how to take advantage of drunk men, as it is a no-brainer: most men have to put in significant effort to get sex, where as women do not.
So in this case, a woman is actually privileged in that she can choose from many sexual partners. The thought of exploitation via alcohol is completely redundant/bizarre to women. No?
 

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Female Guards at Juvenile Jails Sexually Abuse Boys - Federal report estimates 8 to 10% of young prisoners report rape



Am I right in saying that the privilege you are referring to is that they(men) are physically less vulnerable?

From another perspective, you could say that women don't have to discuss how to take advantage of drunk men, as it is a no-brainer: most men have to put in significant effort to get sex, where as women do not.
So in this case, a woman is actually privileged in that she can choose from many sexual partners. The thought of exploitation via alcohol is completely redundant/bizarre to women. No?
We have to worry about getting pregnant if something goes wrong -- not a good situation to be in if you're just with some drunk you met at a party. I don't consider that a privilege at all.
 
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There was no rape in the Rehteah Parsons case - that's why there were never any sexual assault charges filed. There was no video evidence and the only photo of the event showed no faces and does not support the "she was unconscious" claim.

There were witnesses who confirmed it was consensual group sex which she later regretted. Witnesses also confirm that she was NOT blind-drunk. She cried rape well after the fact because she suffered slut-shaming as a result of her actions that night. The bullying and slut shaming was horrid, but what happened to her was not a sexual assault.

The media took the mother's version of the story as gospel and ran with it without bothering to do any fact-checking. By the time the truth came out, nobody was interested in hearing it anymore because the story had already taken on a life of its own.

[/hijack]

In regards to the question of drunken consent, that's opening a huge can of worms. Who decides how drunk is too drunk? Will men be expected to carry blood-alcohol test equipment with them now so they can ensure their partner is below the legal limit? And maybe a voice recorder for good measure? Or how about carrying around written contracts for all drunken hook-ups to sign before sex? Or should we just ban all drunken sex? There is no simple fix to this problem.

I don't condone rape under any circumstances. However, I also don't condone dumping all the responsibility on men. Ultimately everyone is responsible for their own safety and well-being.
 

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We have to worry about getting pregnant if something goes wrong -- not a good situation to be in if you're just with some drunk you met at a party. I don't consider that a privilege at all.
Maybe I didn't express myself correctly.

I said that the privilege that women have which voids the concept of them discussing the exploitation of a drunk man is that they have freedom of choice and a total lack of requirement to put any effort towards courting or approaching their romantic interest.

To get pregnant, you would have to first exercise your privilege and then have unprotected sex with the person.
So, if you look over that timeline, the privilege comes into play during mate selection and the courting process but it ends the minute you start taking your clothes off. That's your choice right there.
 

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Female Guards at Juvenile Jails Sexually Abuse Boys - Federal report estimates 8 to 10% of young prisoners report rape



Am I right in saying that the privilege you are referring to is that they(men) are physically less vulnerable?

From another perspective, you could say that women don't have to discuss how to take advantage of drunk men, as it is a no-brainer: most men have to put in significant effort to get sex, where as women do not.
So in this case, a woman is actually privileged in that she can choose from many sexual partners. The thought of exploitation via alcohol is completely redundant/bizarre to women. No?
I was referring to the privilege of living in a society that is tailored to appeal to heterosexual male lusts, where nearly everywhere one looks, most visual media reinforces and validates their objectification and dehumanization of women, where the neutral assumption is that every relevant viewer of all movies and advertisements is a heterosexual male, and where being a heterosexual male puts one in a position of dominance. When men pursue the relationships they desire, there is almost no risk of being seen as dirty, defiled or whorish, because their purity and goodness are not defined by their abstaining from sex. Even if it were, male purity is not so heavily scrutinized or demanded. They are in a social position where even if they choose to harass women or commit rape, in most cases the victims are the ones who are seen as corrupt, and rapists usually suffer no consequences at all. They are generally trivial consequences even on the rare occasions when the victims are brave enough to report the crime (I was not, nor were any of the women I have spoken to who have been raped) in an environment where everything around us is designed to keep us silent and ashamed.


If you think we are privileged to have to reject numerous pushy, aggressive, unwanted, potentially dangerous would-be sexual partners who think of us as things to use, as mere property, and if physical vulnerability is the only difference you see, then you don't understand the severity of the situation at all.
 

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The thought of exploitation via alcohol is completely redundant/bizarre to women. No?
i wouldn't say that. it's probably bizarre to imagine going for a guy so blind drunk he's effectively not present within his own body or capable of making his non-consent clear. that seems to be the manifestation that's usually under discussion in cases like this. it does seem to me like that's not much part of the female mindset, and you're probably right that the reason why not is basically, we don't usually have to take things that far. EDIT: on the other hand, i do think that far more of us would just give up rather than consider going that far.

but it's a pretty fuzzy, grey line. imo, any given man can be just as not-into-it at a specific moment or with a specific person as any given woman. and for pretty much the same kinds of reasons any women might have. admittedly my sample around this is pretty small, but within that sample i've never found the real-life guys that i know to be very different from women at all about sex if you take away the purely social add-on of how-other-people-would-think-if-they-knew. whatever the libido's doing, the rest of the person has input as well. so there's lots of cases where a woman might be interested in some guy who's at best ambivalent about the idea. and our culture does promote alcohol - universally - as a shortcut around and/or past and/or through all forms of ambivalence including that one. for whatever that's worth.

a total lack of requirement to put any effort towards courting or approaching their romantic interest.
see, i don't think this is true. if it were we wouldn't have all the jillions of threads and posts in a forum like this, from women wondering how/why/whether or not a guy would be open to advances from them. i've been working with a majority population of men for 15+ years and around a fair extra chunk of them as a fellow parent. i'm morally certain that if i took a yen to any one of i dunno, let's say around 97% of them, it would take something like an alcoholic lobotomy to get anywhere. perhaps i'm misreading you here, but the way you state it gives me the impression you're saying most of us women could score with most of you guys just by making it known we'd like to. that doesn't match the real-people impression i have.
 

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Consider this: You can easily find conversations among men about the best ways to take advantage of drunk women for sexual gain, but there is no equivalent trend in which women popularly discuss how to sexually exploit drunk men.
And where do you find these famous conversations? Can you show an example?
 

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You are lining in your fantasy, or you are remained to 100 years ago.

I was referring to the privilege of living in a society that is tailored to appeal to heterosexual male lusts,
Totally false. Today the heterosexual male is the bottom of the societal ladder. There is no lost occasion to criminalize men and their sexuality.

where nearly everywhere one looks, most visual media reinforces and validates their objectification and dehumanization of women,
Those are role models for women. Statistically, 80% of advertisements is targeted towards women
or families. A similar percentage of the private income is spent by women or decided by them.

where the neutral assumption is that every relevant viewer of all movies and advertisements is a heterosexual male, and where being a heterosexual male puts one in a position of dominance.
Again a bunch of delirium. Movies today depict women always as more intelligent, more strong and more brave than men. In movies usually men take a lot of insults and gratuitous violence from women. In television sit coms men are depicted as stupid or ignorant and lazy. In the ads the same.

They are in a social position where even if they choose to harass women or commit rape, in most cases the victims are the ones who are seen as corrupt, and rapists usually suffer no consequences at all.
You are a liar, pure and simple. And today usually women suffer no consequence for being liars like you. Today the definition of rape is so broad pratically accommodates the feminist desire of considering any heterosexual act as rape. There is no evidence necessary anymore to report a rape to make a man arrested. Today accusing the husband of rape or pedophilia without any evidence is the norm in the divorce courts, and these unfounded accusations are routinely accepted by judges.
It is the false rape accusers who never suffer consequences, while men's life is usually ruined by complacent media, while they are almost always innocent.
 

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So my question is, first, how much does a woman need to drink before her consent is negated?
That's honestly a tough question. Different women handle their liquor differently. Some women can operate well on it, while others become total messes. Some women simply lower their inhibitions when they're drunk, while others simply lower in their ability to defend themselves against unwanted attention. There's no real easy answer here. Personally, I wouldn't chance it. When I have sex with someone, I like the thought that he or she had a blast. When a person has sex with you, he or she becomes a form which is his or her most open, vulnerable, and raw. To confront that with rape is just monstrous. I can't even get into being the "rapist" within rape fantasy role-play, despite the fact that many of my exes begged for it. No disrespect to people that do engage in that role, during a fantasy role-play, of course.

Totally false. Today the heterosexual male is the bottom of the societal ladder. There is no lost occasion to criminalize men and their sexuality.
 

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I could never relate to the idea that intoxication removes consent. I'm a mega lightweight because I rarely drink, but when I do drink, I tend to get completely smashed. Even when I've felt like I was going to die because I was so inebriated, I still always felt like I was completely aware of what was going on and in control of the situation. Even if I didn't feel in control at the time, I would never blame anyone else for any mistakes that I make. I can always see somewhere along the line that I could've done something differently to avoid negative consequences.

The people who are in favor of the language saying that inebriation removes consent are probably the types of people who don't feel like they have much control over what happens in their life. Because they don't feel in control of anything, they view outside forces as being in control of them and so they want rules and regulations that prevent them from ever being in a position of responsibility for unwanted consequences.

This might be explained by personality typing. It's probably related to "competency needs." Feelers appeal to others for help more frequently than thinkers. Probably INTJs are the least likely to ask for help followed by INTPs, and etc.
 

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i wouldn't say that. it's probably bizarre to imagine going for a guy so blind drunk he's effectively not present within his own body or capable of making his non-consent clear.
If someone is that drunk, it's very clear that it is rape whether they are male or female. I don't know a single man in my life who would do anything other than take care of someone that drunk. I wouldn't even send them home in a taxi by themselves.

see, i don't think this is true. if it were we wouldn't have all the jillions of threads and posts in a forum like this, from women wondering how/why/whether or not a guy would be open to advances from them. i've been working with a majority population of men for 15+ years and around a fair extra chunk of them as a fellow parent. i'm morally certain that if i took a yen to any one of i dunno, let's say around 97% of them, it would take something like an alcoholic lobotomy to get anywhere. perhaps i'm misreading you here, but the way you state it gives me the impression you're saying most of us women could score with most of you guys just by making it known we'd like to. that doesn't match the real-people impression i have.
When a woman makes an advance on me and doesn't clearly explain what she's after, I get anxious.
Actually I'm going to make a video on this.
 

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You are lining in your fantasy, or you are remained to 100 years ago.



Totally false. Today the heterosexual male is the bottom of the societal ladder. There is no lost occasion to criminalize men and their sexuality.



Those are role models for women. Statistically, 80% of advertisements is targeted towards women
or families. A similar percentage of the private income is spent by women or decided by them.



Again a bunch of delirium. Movies today depict women always as more intelligent, more strong and more brave than men. In movies usually men take a lot of insults and gratuitous violence from women. In television sit coms men are depicted as stupid or ignorant and lazy. In the ads the same.



You are a liar, pure and simple. And today usually women suffer no consequence for being liars like you. Today the definition of rape is so broad pratically accommodates the feminist desire of considering any heterosexual act as rape. There is no evidence necessary anymore to report a rape to make a man arrested. Today accusing the husband of rape or pedophilia without any evidence is the norm in the divorce courts, and these unfounded accusations are routinely accepted by judges.
It is the false rape accusers who never suffer consequences, while men's life is usually ruined by complacent media, while they are almost always innocent.
I don't know why you bothered to respond. She clearly has an incredibly skewed perception of reality. Talking to her, I imagine, is like talking to an alien that is pretending it's a human.
 
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