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The discussions about locking the barn door aren't to stop the theft that already occurred, they're to help prevent another one. In instances of rape, it's obviously not going to make any difference to the crime that has already been committed, but it may help prevent the person being a victim again in the future. Or it can be used as an example to others on how to prevent being victimized in the same way.
sure. i was just saying that that seems to me like a separate subject, since afaik the original discussion started out being around whether and how to determine what constitutes rape in grey-area cases like the one the op cited. to me that tangent tendency is interesting in its own right, because it does point back to @bethdeth's idea that rape is so problematical to us, we do have this strong reflex to make the very idea of it 'go away'. to jump right over discussion of a historical fact that cannot be changed, into a 'resolved' problem, somewhere down some theoretical road.

From my perspective the entire discussion of drunken consent is one of prevention. If you're never in a situation where it could happen, it will never be an issue will it?
sure, but i think it's silly. also not intending insult. maybe it's something that makes natural obvious sense to you, but i'm pretty fond of getting a little bit looped now and then, and i pretty fiercely resent the idea . . . etc etc. but that's a well-worn topic in this thread as well.
 

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sure. i was just saying that that seems to me like a separate subject, since afaik the original discussion started out being around whether and how to determine what constitutes rape in grey-area cases like the one the op cited. to me that tangent tendency is interesting in its own right, because it does point back to @bethdeth's idea that rape is so problematical to us, we do have this strong reflex to make the very idea of it 'go away'. to jump right over discussion of a historical fact that cannot be changed, into a 'resolved' problem, somewhere down some theoretical road.
Exactly. It happens almost every time when there is a discussion about a rape case, but rarely with any other crime unless the victim did something out of the ordinary.

There are high rates of rape in countries where people don't drink alcohol. As Bethdeth said, there are high rates of rape in the military where one would assume the women are highly trained for combat and self-defense. There are high rates of rape in countries where women are forced to cover themselves from head to toe (no skimpy short skirts). At what point do we all realise that the problem actually lies elsewhere, not with what a woman does or doesn't do?
 

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Exactly. It happens almost every time when there is a discussion about a rape case, but rarely with any other crime unless the victim did something out of the ordinary.

There are high rates of rape in countries where people don't drink alcohol. As Bethdeth said, there are high rates of rape in the military where one would assume the women are highly trained for combat and self-defense. There are high rates of rape in countries where women are forced to cover themselves from head to toe (no skimpy short skirts). At what point do we all realise that the problem actually lies elsewhere, not with what a woman does or doesn't do?
I think the biggest problem is that everyone seems intent on reducing this down into a fallacy of the singular cause along with aggregation of a host of differing situations into a single type of situation.
 
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I think the biggest problem is that everyone seems intent on reducing this down into a fallacy of the singular cause along with aggregation of a host of differing situations into a single type of situation.


There was actually a key to the 'cause' (for want of a better descriptor) in the Psychology Today link. So I looked up the term 'hostile masculinity' and came out with the Malamuth study. http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/malamuth/pdf/94ab20.pdf

Also I found a meta-analysis. http://taasa.org/library/pdfs/TAASALibrary76.pdf

I thought about it and wondered why there are pockets in culture where rapes are higher and they are covered up so well such as football, rugby and other high end violent team sports, bikie gangs, as well as the army, there is usually a lot of money involved in their cases and the men are highly valued members for their masculine skills. This is not to say that all men who are involved in these pockets are rapists.

Basically rapists appear to be aggressive and misogynistic. Who the hell would have thunk that?
 

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Basically rapists appear to be aggressive and misogynistic. Who the hell would have thunk that?
In the end that conclusion is like saying "People who attend classes on full contact Krav Maga are likely to have punched someone in the face".

Needs that come up frequently are anger with women and the need to control and/or dominate women [Lisak, David 1988], however the anger/need is itself not a causality per say since the anger/need must have been caused by something. Same with the misogyny and aggressive masculinity referenced in your studies.

Marshall found that the arousal patterns of rapists and non-rapists did not differ much and Freund found that rapists have no preference for non-consensual sex over consensual sex.

There is also poverty influencing both offender and victim, use of alcohol and drugs by offenders and so on. So we're no closer to getting away from the singular cause fallacy that permeates through this thread. Humans have a preference for simple and fixable causes, but as I said in the post you quoted no single cause have been identified and I judge it as very unlikely that one will. Aggression and misogyny probably play a role, so does anger towards women, a need to dominate women, alcohol to lower impulse control and precipitate violence. That's not even mentioning all the variables I came up with.

We can probably also desegregate the situation somewhat, into anger rape, power rape and sadistic rape, perhaps into cases where the offender knew the victim and where the offender and victim do not know each other, where it was planned and where it wasn't and so on.

What this thread derailed into are 2 sides where one has a hammer and thus looks at the problem like a nail and the other side has a screwdriver and thus looks at the problem like a screw, and you're both wrong.
 

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We can probably also desegregate the situation somewhat, into anger rape, power rape and sadistic rape, perhaps into cases where the offender knew the victim and where the offender and victim do not know each other, where it was planned and where it wasn't and so on.
^^^ Exactly. Thank you for so succinctly laying out what I couldn't be bothered to try and explain.

For my part I was talking only about the specific type of rape that was originally brought up in this thread. Others were trying to broaden the discussion and apply my ideas to all types of rape, which was never my intent.

The motivations for different types of rape are very different and any attempt to apply a single broad stroke solution is just not going to work.
 

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The motivations for different types of rape are very different and any attempt to apply a single broad stroke solution is just not going to work.
The whole argument is a flawed premise, unless rape can be 100% eradicated behavior that influences the risk of being a victim is going to be a factor in any approach to the topic.
 

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The whole argument is a flawed premise, unless rape can be 100% eradicated behavior that influences the risk of being a victim is going to be a factor in any approach to the topic.
Similarly I could say: unless drinking alcohol can be 100% eradicated, encouraging women not to drink will not decrease the rape rates because if a rapist is seeking out a drunk woman, he'll find a drunk woman whether it's woman A or woman B or woman Z. If I go out tonight and don't drink and as a result a rapist decides he won't rape me, he'll just rape someone else. Yay I'm not raped but someone else was. That's hardly a victory. Further, if you eliminate alcohol altogether, the big problem here is that there will still be rapists. These people will still seek out victims with apparent vulnerabilities. Even if this means they'd have to work a bit harder (I think that's questionable) I'd argue that this would still not decrease rape rates until I hear a substantial number of rapists say "I used to rape but I can't be bothered anymore because there are no drunk girls".

It's like if someone is going to steal then they are going to steal. And it's like all the studies that have shown that car alarms don't actually reduce car theft.

The kinds of things women are encouraged to do in order to decrease the risk of being a victim of rape tend to be substantially more than you get with any other preventative advice. It's not like the one-time fitting of an alarm that you can then forget about and get on with your life. That's why the subject of victim-blaming comes up so much with regards to rape. Some people seem to think women should constantly modify their behaviour or constantly have their guard up and then they act all confused when someone points out that that's a culture of fear.

Some studies have shown that up to 50% of rapes are committed by a partner or ex partner. So I hope women have their rape guard up when they're with their loved one and look out for those rapey signs. A good preventative measure however would be to never have a partner! Omg I'm a genius.
 

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Similarly I could say: unless drinking alcohol can be 100% eradicated, encouraging women not to drink will not decrease the rape rates because if a rapist is seeking out a drunk woman, he'll find a drunk woman whether it's woman A or woman B or woman Z. If I go out tonight and don't drink and as a result a rapist decides he won't rape me, he'll just rape someone else. Yay I'm not raped but someone else was. That's hardly a victory. Further, if you eliminate alcohol altogether, the big problem here is that there will still be rapists. These people will still seek out victims with apparent vulnerabilities. Even if this means they'd have to work a bit harder (I think that's questionable) I'd argue that this would still not decrease rape rates until I hear a substantial number of rapists say "I used to rape but I can't be bothered anymore because there are no drunk girls".


It's like if someone is going to steal then they are going to steal. And it's like all the studies that have shown that car alarms don't actually reduce car theft.


The kinds of things women are encouraged to do in order to decrease the risk of being a victim of rape tend to be substantially more than you get with any other preventative advice. It's not like the one-time fitting of an alarm that you can then forget about and get on with your life. That's why the subject of victim-blaming comes up so much with regards to rape. Some people seem to think women should constantly modify their behaviour or constantly have their guard up and then they act all confused when someone points out that that's a culture of fear.

The point isn't to reduce rape rates, but for individual women who want to reduce their risks of being victims to be able to do so. On the same note, if someone is out to rob someone, I'd rather it be someone who is not me, so I elect to not wander around town with a stack of hundreds sticking out of my back pocket.


Car alarms do not reduce car theft, but reduce the odds of your car being picked and that's the point. Those who take precautions (an individual choice) are less likely to be victims than those who do not (an individual choice).


It's not just about women, if we look at violence in general men make up 79% of murder victims, are twice as likely to be carjacked, more likely to be victims of aggravated assault, simple assault and robbery according to US DOJ 2009 statistics, so men should modify their behavior to avoid being beaten and killed as well.


If you know that 1.3 out of 1000 women are going to get raped (2009 DOJ statistics) then I'd say it's up to you to make sure it's not you first and foremost. Knowing that most rapes take place at home, it's probably safer for a woman to be in a bar drunk off her ass than at home.


Some studies have shown that up to 50% of rapes are committed by a partner or ex partner. So I hope women have their rape guard up when they're with their loved one and look out for those rapey signs. A good preventative measure however would be to never have a partner! Omg I'm a genius.

To be honest, if we look at the numbers for spousal/partner rapes, domestic violence and so on, we can conclude that:


A) There are a lot of shitty men out there.
B) A lot of women are shitty judges of character.


B is supported by the 2009 DOJ statistics which show that women are assaulted much more frequently than men by people who fall in the "non-stranger" category.


http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv08.pdf




Just as an end point, because this discussion with NFs always end the same way, ideally we should have a world with a 0 crime rate for all types of crimes. Until that happens, which is very unlikely to ever happen unless we get a minority report style system, everyone needs to take precautions to avoid becoming a victim, or they can elect not to take such precautions.


If they elect to engage in behavior which is known to increase their odds of being a victim of a given type of crime, they've made a choice, if they elect to make a choice which reduces their odds of being a victim of a crime at a cost to their "individual freedom to act exactly how they feel 100% of the time consequences be damned" they've made a different choice.


For instance, if you elect to run away from home, hitch a ride across the country with long-haul truckers, engage in prostitution and heavy drug use, then I will not be surprised to see your photo on one of the many true crime shows I watch every week. In the end, I don't care if you take precautions or not, it's pragmatism vs "I wish it was so".
 

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In the end that conclusion is like saying "People who attend classes on full contact Krav Maga are likely to have punched someone in the face".

Needs that come up frequently are anger with women and the need to control and/or dominate women [Lisak, David 1988], however the anger/need is itself not a causality per say since the anger/need must have been caused by something. Same with the misogyny and aggressive masculinity referenced in your studies.

Marshall found that the arousal patterns of rapists and non-rapists did not differ much and Freund found that rapists have no preference for non-consensual sex over consensual sex.

There is also poverty influencing both offender and victim, use of alcohol and drugs by offenders and so on. So we're no closer to getting away from the singular cause fallacy that permeates through this thread. Humans have a preference for simple and fixable causes, but as I said in the post you quoted no single cause have been identified and I judge it as very unlikely that one will. Aggression and misogyny probably play a role, so does anger towards women, a need to dominate women, alcohol to lower impulse control and precipitate violence. That's not even mentioning all the variables I came up with.

We can probably also desegregate the situation somewhat, into anger rape, power rape and sadistic rape, perhaps into cases where the offender knew the victim and where the offender and victim do not know each other, where it was planned and where it wasn't and so on.

What this thread derailed into are 2 sides where one has a hammer and thus looks at the problem like a nail and the other side has a screwdriver and thus looks at the problem like a screw, and you're both wrong.

I was being ironic for the most part and looking for a key to the cause rather than having all the answers. It's far more important on the perpetrator rather than revictimise in a sense of wanting to understand rape, in it's variety of 'styles'. Whether it's planned or on the spur of the moment it will always come down to a disregard of the victim's choice. It will always come down to a desire to dominate the situation and have 'their way'. Nothing changes there across the board.
 

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I don't like you because you're manipulative and you like to take my words out of their context and use them against me. How should I return that favour?
I think the best revenge is a life well-lived. So: I have a wife. She's beautiful. I live in a duplex, 3 bedrooms, 1 bathroom, a proper dining room and there is a park with a splash pad directly in my back yard. I have a 2 year old son who is autistic and I just love him to pieces. I have a daughter who is 5 months old and she's beautiful too. I have steady work at a recession-proof job that pays enough for us to live comfortably. I don't have a mortgage, my total debt is under $7000, my car is almost totally paid off, I'm 29 and I weight 200 lbs (a bit on the thick side, I admit, but I'll run it off shortly anyways) and I have happiness and love in my life. Hear that? I'm happy! Now don't you dare call me names again. It's rude and I don't like it and you're not a better person for it, you're a worse one.
 
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