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Discussion Starter #1
I was beginning to doubt my type identification, even though I was pretty certain I had a strong Fi, because I don't empathize with people and I don't listen, as a lot of you seem to do. That is, until I read this and realized I was not using my Ne fully:
Most of the weaker characteristics that are found in INFPs are due to their dominant Feeling function overshadowing the rest of their personality. When the dominant function of Introverted Feeling overshadows everything else, the INFP can't use Extraverted iNtuition to take in information in a truly objective fashion. In such cases, an INFP may show some or all of the following weaknesses in varying degrees:
  • May be extremely sensitive to any kind of criticism
  • May perceive criticism where none was intended
  • May have skewed or unrealistic ideas about reality
  • May be unable to acknowledge or hear anything that goes against their personal ideas and opinions
  • May blame their problems on other people, seeing themselves as victims who are treated unfairly
  • May have great anger, and show this anger with rash outpourings of bad temper
  • May be unaware of appropriate social behavior
  • May be oblivious to their personal appearance, or to appropriate dress
  • May come across as eccentric, or perhaps even generally strange to others, without being aware of it
  • May be unable to see or understand anyone else's point of view
  • May value their own opinions and feelings far above others
  • May be unaware of how their behavior affects others
  • May be oblivious to other people's need
  • May feel overwhelmed with tension and stress when someone expresses disagreement with the INFP, or disapproval of the INFP
  • May develop strong judgments that are difficult to unseed against people who they perceive have been oppressive or suppressive to them
  • Under great stress, may obsess about details that are unimportant to the big picture of things
  • Under stress, may obsessively brood over a problem repeatedly
  • May have unreasonable expectations of others
  • May have difficulty maintaining close relationships, due to unreasonable expectations
Source: http://www.personalitypage.com/INFP_per.html

Nearly all of those traits fit me eerily and frighteningly well.

Anyway, I was just wondering if any of you feel the same way or have felt the same way before, and if so, how you went about "fixing" it. The page does mention a few ways to develop Ne, but I wanted to know if others had experiences with this.
 

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These fit me very well but i don't think it is because we don't use our intuition ... " the INFP can't use Extraverted iNtuition to take in information in a truly objective fashion " it's just that we use it wrong because of our strong Fi.

i find out that when i start living more in the moment and stop thinking so much about the posibilities (stop using my Ni) i feel much better
the point is not to develop our Ni but to learn to control our Fi

just what i think ...
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I've done some reading and I've thought about this a little... It seems that having a strong Fi without any balance from a properly developed extraverted function (Ne) has made me so introverted that I selfishly only think about myself. That is, I really don't care about others, and in conversations, I constantly focus on myself without really listening to the other person. I only care about how what they do affects me or how I relate to it. This sort of behavior really makes it extremely difficult to develop connections with people, and it's starting to become a problem.

So... going back to my original post. How do I fix this? How do I fix my unhealthily strong introversion and selfishness?

I think Shades is right about controlling the Fi. It is way out of control and overactive. Again, it seems like when I take in information, it's only to figure out how it affects me and/or how I relate to it. Example: If a friend got drunk last night and tells me about it, I genuinely don't feel anything. I only think about what might happen if he does it again and if it occurs in my presence, because I don't want to deal with clean-up. It's selfish thinking, and I'm starting to realize that it's extremely unhealthy.

... and currently, in relation to the general lack of interest in this thread, I'm looking at this one: May perceive criticism where none was intended.
 

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It is absolutely the case that INFPs need to develop their secondary function. Because (at least according to Linda Berens, in the book, "Personality Type, An Owners Manual"), it is asserted that the secret to healthy and rounded development for ALL types, is the development of their respective secondary functions. The 3rd and 4th functions are not called "inferior" functions for nothing. The mapping of MBTI type to brain activity as mapped by state of the art tomographical techniques, demonstrates that we have dominant functions because we have parts of the brain which are better developped than other parts. Higher neuron density, better blood supply. The cognitive functions that 'reside' in these better served areas of the brain inevitably become the dominant functions. Berens cautions against trying to develop oneself by stregthening the inferior functions. The inferior functins are congenitally weak. The physical architecture of the brain is what dictates which functions are least developped and no mental gymnastics, no mantra, no meditation, no self-hypnosis Jedi mind trich can ever get neuron density to increase in a part of the brain from which an 'inferior' functions has arisen.

The 2 main functions, one extroverted and one introverted, achieve a balance. The dominant function will always be dominant, it is working with the nature of things to develop the balancing effect of the secondary function.

My artwork and photography have always done this for me, long before I evenknew what an INFP was. They need Ne to operate.
 

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I was beginning to doubt my type identification, even though I was pretty certain I had a strong Fi, because I don't empathize with people and I don't listen, as a lot of you seem to do. That is, until I read this and realized I was not using my Ne fully:

Source: http://www.personalitypage.com/INFP_per.html

Nearly all of those traits fit me eerily and frighteningly well.

Anyway, I was just wondering if any of you feel the same way or have felt the same way before, and if so, how you went about "fixing" it. The page does mention a few ways to develop Ne, but I wanted to know if others had experiences with this.
Interesting post:happy:. I think I might be doubting my type all over again because the main reason why I felt I did not fit in with the INFP type was because of the empathetic qualities that I just don't think I have.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Interesting post:happy:. I think I might be doubting my type all over again because the main reason why I felt I did not fit in with the INFP type was because of the empathetic qualities that I just don't think I have.
Hmm... If INTPs don't empathize, this indicates a flaw in my understanding of Ne. In the post you quote, I say that I don't empathize with people because I lack a properly developed Ne. I had assumed Fi meant having strong values and judging things based on those strong values and that Ne therefore meant trying to understand other people. But if this is the case, it'd mean that INTPs also empathize when in fact they don't actually seem to do much of it, because the INTP's auxiliary function is also Ne... I definitely hadn't considered this before.

Fi has some sort of a people element, then, and it colors my utilization of Ne to focus more on deriving meaning based on observations of people. Not sure.

Assuming my re-interpretation of Fi is more accurate, I'm going to have a much harder time explaining why I tend to interpret other people's actions more as malice and how to stop doing that. That is, I try to understand others, but only in the context of how it negatively affects me.

The 2 main functions, one extroverted and one introverted, achieve a balance. The dominant function will always be dominant, it is working with the nature of things to develop the balancing effect of the secondary function.

My artwork and photography have always done this for me, long before I evenknew what an INFP was. They need Ne to operate.
May you clarify this? How do they need Ne to operate?

After deciding that my understanding of Ne might be flawed because INTPs don't empathize much, I looked up Ne and read the article about Ne and the one about Intuition in general on The Lenore Thomson Exegesis Wiki. I also really like the ego orientation page.

My understanding now is that Ne is used to derive meaning based on observations. The observations act like pieces of a puzzle and you use Ne to fit the pieces of the puzzle together as you gather the pieces. Ne, to me, sounds a lot more like a function for input than for output; it doesn't seem like it's used for self-expression and creativity via artwork and photography.

(at least according to Linda Berens, in the book, "Personality Type, An Owners Manual")
I think you actually meant Lenore Thomson... :happy:

I also found this:
Perhaps the most typical manifestation of tertiary and inferior Fi is an attitude of psychologizing other people: a sort of pseudo-empathy in which one explains other people's behavior in terms of pitiful needs and psychological flaws that anyone would be ashamed to have. "Notice the defensiveness. He clings desperately to his ideas. Such weakness." (Nearly all psychological theories offer plenty of ammo for psychologizing, including Lenore Thomson's ideas.) Where developed Fi leads you to find something in your own soul in terms of which to truly understand someone else and see things their way, tertiary and inferior Fi typically lead you to find something in your own soul that you despise, in terms of which you can "explain" them and justify putting them down.
Naturally, you can see plenty of dominant-style Fi in ETJs, secondary-style Fi in IFPs, and so on--even inferior-style Fi in IFPs.
Source: Introverted Feeling

I really don't get how truly understanding others and seeing things their way is introversion. Anyway, in my original post, I just wanted some advice on controlling my Fi, developing my Ne, or whatever else works to achieve balance. Still waiting...:unsure:
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Aha! Because I'm an INFP under stress, I've gone ESTJ sort of and I've been stuck like this for a while. How do I flip back or de-stress, so to speak, when the last time I remember being INFP-ish was nearly thirteen years ago?

(I feel somewhat guilty for continuing this thread, because the title really sucks and I've come up with a better question, but I'd also feel guilty for starting a new one. Bah...)
 

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Hmm... If INTPs don't empathize, this indicates a flaw in my understanding of Ne. In the post you quote, I say that I don't empathize with people because I lack a properly developed Ne. I had assumed Fi meant having strong values and judging things based on those strong values and that Ne therefore meant trying to understand other people. But if this is the case, it'd mean that INTPs also empathize when in fact they don't actually seem to do much of it, because the INTP's auxiliary function is also Ne... I definitely hadn't considered this before.
I think INTPs experience a different kind of empathy. The way I understand it, INFPs feel another person's emotions, while an INTP will understand what the person is going through. Sometimes it's said the feeling type is true empathy, while the understanding type is only mimicking empathy. Not sure about that, both probably use Ne.

My understanding now is that Ne is used to derive meaning based on observations. The observations act like pieces of a puzzle and you use Ne to fit the pieces of the puzzle together as you gather the pieces. Ne, to me, sounds a lot more like a function for input than for output; it doesn't seem like it's used for self-expression and creativity via artwork and photography.
I think it is used for self-expression too. It can put random bits of observation together to create humor, puns, deep observations, etc.
 

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Ne takers?

I think you actually meant Lenore Thomson... :happy:
You're absolutely right, I don't know how that wire came to be so firmly crossed.

My understanding now is that Ne is used to derive meaning based on observations. The observations act like pieces of a puzzle and you use Ne to fit the pieces of the puzzle together as you gather the pieces. Ne, to me, sounds a lot more like a function for input than for output; it doesn't seem like it's used for self-expression and creativity via artwork and photography.
Hmmm, well the way I understand it, is like this ... Ne is a perceiving function. It is attuned to patterns, and abstract connections. How a person perceives the world must inevitably shape how that person represents their 'model' of the world in art. My art is abstract because my perceptions of the world are abstract.

I don't know to what extent Ne 'derives meaning'. It's a fascinating topic in its own right, or maybe indicative of the many flaws that emerge from MBTI when you start to push the model a bit hard. When you consider the act of S type perception, the notion of putting a 'meaning' on every perceived sound, colour, or smell, doesn't sound very convincing. Ne will perceive a pattern in the way that the ripples on a pond interact, but the process of perceiving that data doesn't put any meaning on it. Under MBTI, it's the judging function's job is to take the perceived information and give it meaning. Perception delivers data, judging makes sense of it, i.e, gives it meaning.


I really don't get how truly understanding others and seeing things their way is introversion. Anyway, in my original post, I just wanted some advice on controlling my Fi, developing my Ne, or whatever else works to achieve balance. Still waiting...:unsure:
I completely don't see how you arrived at the definition of introversion as 'truly understanding others and seeing things their way'. Introversion is nothing more than a term used to describe the orientation of a cognitive function, that's all. Does the function operate invisibly, 'inside' the person, looking inward? Or does the function 'look outward', is it's principal doman of operation the world outside and around the person exercising it?

As for 'controlling' your Fi ... can you control your eye colour? Can you control your DNA? Your cognitive preferences are emergent properties of the architecture of your brain, you can't get in there and control the neuron density of your brain in order to make bits of it work better. You are who you are.
 

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Those points you listed in the original post can be myself at my worst as well - very locked onto myself and not caring about other people, only own emotions take precedence, get fussy about details especially other people not observing them, can explode in anger, and think my own point of view is best. I think this ultimately makes an impression on other people that you are very stuck-up, very narcissistic.

But I always thought that these negative traits are a function of me increasing my introvert-ness. Introverts expand energy on other people. These negative traits come out when I am under a lot of pressure or in a bad mood. So I think what I am trying to do is not expand any energy on other people because I feel I need it dearly myself. I basically become warped in my I, and direct all focus internally. Not sure what N has to do with it but I think that since N allows you to see the bigger picture better, perhaps with developed N you are more likely to see resolution to your problems, light at the end of tunnel so to say, so you don't become so wrapped up in it.

Also I think you are confusing empathy and sympathy. Empathy is feeling with the person, just being aware of their feelings. Sympathy is feeling for them, actual act of caring. You can empathize with people without feeling any sympathy for them. And when I feel like I am depleted myself that exactly what happens - I can be aware of other people's feelings but have no willingness to expand any of my energy on them, sympathize, try to understand their point of view, or help them in any way.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I completely don't see how you arrived at the definition of introversion as 'truly understanding others and seeing things their way'. Introversion is nothing more than a term used to describe the orientation of a cognitive function, that's all. Does the function operate invisibly, 'inside' the person, looking inward? Or does the function 'look outward', is it's principal doman of operation the world outside and around the person exercising it?
I meant I didn't understand how the introverted orientation of the feeling function could involve others if it's introverted, because introversion is inward-looking. I derived this from my understanding (possibly flawed) that Ne has nothing to do with the empathy lots of INFPs seem to have, because Ne is perceiving -- not judging. Empathy, in my view, intrinsically involves a judging function because it requires understanding, which can only come from judging. It requires brain cycles to understand another person's thoughts and feelings, which implies thinking, which in turn implies judging. Then again, I'm probably totally off.

As for 'controlling' your Fi ... can you control your eye colour? Can you control your DNA? Your cognitive preferences are emergent properties of the architecture of your brain, you can't get in there and control the neuron density of your brain in order to make bits of it work better. You are who you are.
My preferences might be stuck as they are, but I'm pretty sure, being stressed, that I focus a lot on using my inferior functions (Te and Si). I might just be asking the wrong questions. I don't know how stress has affected my utilization of my cognitive functions: whether it's overusing Te, overusing Fi, underusing Ne, or whatever, I don't know. I am fairly certain, though, that something's not quite right.

It is absolutely the case that INFPs need to develop their secondary function. ... it is asserted that the secret to healthy and rounded development for ALL types, is the development of their respective secondary functions. The 3rd and 4th functions are not called "inferior" functions for nothing.
Remember this? So how do you develop your secondary function and lessen the use of inferior ones? I didn't really mean "controlling" Fi so much as changing my underutilization or underdeveloped use of Ne, or changing my overutilization of inferior functions.

But I always thought that these negative traits are a function of me increasing my introvert-ness. Introverts expand energy on other people. These negative traits come out when I am under a lot of pressure or in a bad mood. So I think what I am trying to do is not expand any energy on other people because I feel I need it dearly myself. I basically become warped in my I, and direct all focus internally.
This is precisely what I'm doing, I think. I just don't know how I can get myself to direct some more focus externally.

Also I think you are confusing empathy and sympathy. Empathy is feeling with the person, just being aware of their feelings. Sympathy is feeling for them, actual act of caring. You can empathize with people without feeling any sympathy for them.
I'm aware of this. I just didn't think INTPs actually cared to understand other people's thoughts and feelings. When I say care, I don't mean the "extroverted" care where you show caring. That's sympathy, I know. I mean the care that motivates one to empathize with and understand others in the first place. As in, not being totally apathetic and being locked into yourself. As in, simply being interested enough to empathize.

Sorry, I feel like I'm nitpicking... Si much?
 
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I'm aware of this. I just didn't think INTPs actually cared to understand other people's thoughts and feelings. When I say care, I don't mean the "extroverted" care where you show caring. That's sympathy, I know. I mean the care that motivates one to empathize with and understand others in the first place. As in, not being totally apathetic and being locked into yourself. As in, simply being interested enough to empathize.
We INTPs want to figure out how everything works, including other people. I'm very interested in what goes on inside those closest to me.

But it's a detached process. INTPs can seem cold and uncaring in the midst of things. For instance if someone close to me is being overly-dramatic, my attitude in the situation might be "get over it already". But later when I'm calm, I will ponder what caused those types of reactions to get a better sense of how they function-- if that makes sense?
 

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We INTPs want to figure out how everything works, including other people. I'm very interested in what goes on inside those closest to me.

But it's a detached process. INTPs can seem cold and uncaring in the midst of things. For instance if someone close to me is being overly-dramatic, my attitude in the situation might be "get over it already". But later when I'm calm, I will ponder what caused those types of reactions to get a better sense of how they function-- if that makes sense?
Sometimes I wish I could be an INTP...
 

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retypepassword said:
I meant I didn't understand how the introverted orientation of the feeling function could involve others if it's introverted, because introversion is inward-looking
developed Fi leads you to find something in your own soul in terms of which to truly understand someone else and see things their way
That's the important bit I think. It IS still introverted because you're finding the answer within yourself, but you then apply what you've found to the outside. It doesn't technically involve others, although you're understanding others, the understanding is dependent on what's within you rather than something you've found outside, if that makes any sense? Sorry if this is badly explained :blushed:
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
@vel: Sorry for being somewhat abrasive in my response to your comment on sympathy vs. empathy. I initially took offense to it, even though you were probably just trying to help. :unsure:

But later when I'm calm, I will ponder what caused those types of reactions to get a better sense of how they function-- if that makes sense?
Yep.

developed Fi leads you to find something in your own soul in terms of which to truly understand someone else and see things their way
That's the important bit I think. It IS still introverted because you're finding the answer within yourself, but you then apply what you've found to the outside. It doesn't technically involve others, although you're understanding others, the understanding is dependent on what's within you rather than something you've found outside, if that makes any sense? Sorry if this is badly explained :blushed:
The idea doesn't sit well with me, though, because everyone's different. Why should I use my own values in my judgment of others? I suppose it comes automatically and I do it all the time, though it's mostly when I assume people will be as offended by my comments as I am by theirs.

Edit: Along the same lines, I think another problem with me is I don't like answering questions or really talking about myself (with people who aren't really close), but I enjoy listening to other people talk. I, and it seems a lot of other INFPs, am really uncomfortable with "expressing my true feelings," as skogprinsessa put it in another thread. So naturally, I assume that others don't want me asking them questions, so I don't, and I don't get to listen to people, which makes me come off as even more introverted, and then I watch others frolic and intermingle, grow jealous and see their minimal interaction with me as a criticism, and then become even more introverted, stressed, ESTJ-like, and, well. It's a painful cycle. But at the same time, I don't really want to intermingle because I get tired pretty quickly under those sorts of circumstances...
 
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The fact that we do it automatically is pretty key. It does seem kind of weird to be able to find the answer within yourself when you don't know all that the other person does so it feels like you could easily be missing something. Probably why we're famed for not wanting to give our opinions because "What if I missed something?"
It's good that you're questioning judging people though :happy: What would you want to do differently do you think? We are often inclined to compare other people's values to our own, but that doesn't mean we have to condemn the others :cool: That's what's good about it. It's much healthier to remember 'I have core values, therefore many others may too. I have a right to mine, therefore they have a right to theirs'. And we can do that! So you may think Fi is a curse, but it's actually a blessing in this sense. An awareness that whatever we think of others values, they have a right to them. We might not agree, but it's still perfectly okay for them to have them. In a sense we 'judge' them without judging them.

I'm with you on not wanting to answer questions about myself. It's always tricky to explain and I think that a lot of my feelings would just seem 'wrong' to some other people. I'd rather know about them because I already know me, but everything I learn about them makes it easier to 'be' them a little. But I'm not good at that so don't ask much and feel more introverted too from it :mellow:
I hope I haven't said anything offensive and please tell me if something I've written upsets you. I think it's great that you're questioning these things :laughing:
 

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It's good that you're questioning judging people though :happy: What would you want to do differently do you think? We are often inclined to compare other people's values to our own, but that doesn't mean we have to condemn the others :cool: That's what's good about it. It's much healthier to remember 'I have core values, therefore many others may too. I have a right to mine, therefore they have a right to theirs'. And we can do that! So you may think Fi is a curse, but it's actually a blessing in this sense. An awareness that whatever we think of others values, they have a right to them. We might not agree, but it's still perfectly okay for them to have them. In a sense we 'judge' them without judging them.
i just had to quote this, thank you for that ! gave me alot to think about
 

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Fe Fi Fo Fum

I meant I didn't understand how the introverted orientation of the feeling function could involve others if it's introverted, because introversion is inward-looking.
This is a brilliant observation/question. I know where you're coming from on this because I've so far failed completely to truly understand either Ni introverted intuition or Si introverted sensing (How can perceiving functions be turned inwards??)

I derived this from my understanding (possibly flawed) that Ne has nothing to do with the empathy lots of INFPs seem to have, because Ne is perceiving -- not judging. Empathy, in my view, intrinsically involves a judging function because it requires understanding, which can only come from judging. It requires brain cycles to understand another person's thoughts and feelings, which implies thinking, which in turn implies judging. Then again, I'm probably totally off.
What you're saying makes perfect sense, and now maybe I'm wondering whether the observed behaviour which I think we're discussing, which I'd say was labelled "empathy", is actually an emergent behaviour of two or more cognitive functions interacting, not the direct influence of just one.

My preferences might be stuck as they are, but I'm pretty sure, being stressed, that I focus a lot on using my inferior functions (Te and Si). I might just be asking the wrong questions. I don't know how stress has affected my utilization of my cognitive functions: whether it's overusing Te, overusing Fi, underusing Ne, or whatever, I don't know. I am fairly certain, though, that something's not quite right.


Remember this? So how do you develop your secondary function and lessen the use of inferior ones? I didn't really mean "controlling" Fi so much as changing my underutilization or underdeveloped use of Ne, or changing my overutilization of inferior functions.
Remember this? http://www.personalitypage.com/INFP_per.html :happy: This is the source of the list of symptoms in the original post, and it goes on to give some good pointers regarding the development of the secondary function.

"The INFP who is concerned with personal growth will pay close attention to their motivation for taking in information. Do they take in information to better understand a situation or concept? Or, do they take in information to support a personal idea or cause? At the moment when something is perceived, is the INFP concerned with twisting that perception to fit in with their personal values? Or is she/he concerned with absorbing the information objectively? To achieve a better understanding of the external world, the INFP should try to perceive information objectively, before fitting it into their value system. They should consciously be aware of their tendency to discard anything that doesn't agree with their values, and work towards lessening this tendency. They should try to see situations from other people's perspectives, without making personal judgments about the situations or the other people's perspectives. In general, they should work on exercising their iNtuition in a truly Extraverted sense. In other words, they should use iNtuition to take in information about the world around them for the sake of understanding the world, rather than take in information to support their own conclusions. The INFP who successfully perceives things objectively may be quite a powerful force for positive change".
 
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googling for ways to develop Ne i found this thing that got me laughing. it's a funny view of Ne

"You could think of an INFP’s Ne as a loyal servant who walks the perimeter of the grounds carrying a lantern before it and with a guard dog by its side. Maybe the guard dog is Te. The Ne is the face that greets visitors at the door like a butler. Ne checks the gates and doors, and secures the windows. It ensures that its master isn’t disturbed in doing his important work in the study, and it dutifully brings the dominant what it needs whenever called.

I’ll just add that Ne the servant sometimes takes his job so seriously that he wanders off the grounds following the tracks of an animal that might be dangerous and picks up scat to bring back to the master, but Ne gets easily distracted and follows another track that crossed the original track. This tracking goes on and on, and the servants backpack gets overloaded with specimens…but miraculously in what seems like aimless wandering it ends up back at its master house. Tired, Ne goes back inside satisfied at having done a good job, gives the specimens to the master and goes to the Ne’s sleeping quarters.

Si is the master’s personal secretary who never leaves the house, and with Ne tired out Si takes over some of the servant’s duties. When someone knocks at the door, Si responds in fear and uncertainty double-bolting the door. Si runs up to tell the master that their is a horrible monster lurking outside, and they try to decide whether to sic the Te dog on the potential intruder. They both cower huddled together in the study frozen in inaction.

Ne wakes up, goes downstairs and answers the door. It turns out it was just a girl scout selling cookies. Ne politely buys some cookies and brings them up to the master’s study with two glasses of milk. The Fi master says he wasn’t afraid and that he was just about to take care of the problem himself."


Ne (extraverted intuition) for INFPs Surviving INFP
 
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