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I don't really identify with either of those "sides".
I understand that this is just to make a person realize that there's more to it than wanting to be unique or being an artists or whatever, but this doesn't capture enneagram 4 so well according to me.
Enneagrams are supposed to have fear as their lower emotion, aka. they don't always know that they are afraid. Whereas the lower emotion of enneagram 4s is envy.

I like this video:
50 minutes in he starts to describe the different types.
Enneagram 4 at 59 minutes
Enneagram 6 a few seconds after 1 hour and 5 minutes.
 

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This is how I see it. I could be wrong, so feel free to tear this post to shreds.

When I (Type 4) enter a room full of people, I begin to analyze the group and as a default, conclude I'm different and not like these people. I'm guessing a 6 might do that too. But based on Delphyne's description, a Type 6 would notice their differences and try to adapt to them.

I (Type 4) realize how I could 'adapt', to the extent of my knowledge. But there are two problems with this that make me withdraw.
1. I wouldn't be presenting an 'authentic' image, so I don't get any feeling of validation. This is counterproductive because my image is not based on being liked, but authentic.
2. No matter what I do I'd still feel different from the group. This is probably due to my own insecurity that I'm NOT a good analyzer of human interaction. But I'm afraid of actually discovering that I'm wrong and that I DO actually 'fit' in the group, because that would feel constraining to my image. I want to define myself on my own terms, and fitting in a group would start to make up my identity without my control (introjection?)

So, withdrawal reinforces my feelings of control, making me feel different and preventing my image from being defined by someone or something else.
 

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You know I kind of have characteristics of both of these... 4w3 and 6w5 (I've also contemplated 3w4 and 5w6 but I fit 6w5 more)

From what seems to be discussed here...

  • 4w3: Feel something's wrong with them and want to fix themselves but worry that fixing themselves means getting rid of who they are.
  • 6w5: Realize what's wrong with them but don't have good inner guidance (and as a result have trouble with who they are) to cure themselves of their differences; don't understand what's wrong with them because they would know what's wrong with them and could fix it for good. Admittedly this sounds 3 like too.
Admittedly, I do have something which makes me different (asperger syndrome) -- I had trouble putting my finger on it though I knew something was wrong with me. I couldn't fit in right, couldn't maintain most friendships, people often were cruel to me, spread nasty rumors about me, and also took advantage of my poor social skills to pull a fast one on me (admittedly, this might be where I learned to distrust some people and operate with a skeptical eye).

I wanted to fix these problems but frankly didn't know how and once I got good enough at "acting normal", I basically started to feel as if I was some "actor" except in my own life and I began to have trouble figuring out where the act started and where the real me ended -- that's pretty disturbing (I also started to become less concerned with what others thought about me, so there was less need to try) and, like the E4 description, I didn't want to change myself so much that I wasn't even me anymore.

I'm thinking if I was the following

- E-3w4: Integration would be to E6, with the wing either maintaining a stationary position or shifting to w1 or w7. I don't really fit a E-6w7 profile as far as I know other than being energetic; as for a E6 with 1 traits, that sort of makes sense, though when I was a child I was like that when I witnessed injustices, misuses of authority

- E-4w3: Integration would be to E1 with the wing either maintaining a stationary position or shifting to w6 or w9. I clearly have E6 traits so a "1w6" isn't that strange as I have some E1 traits too; 1w9 sort of is more conceptual in their idealism and I can be this way sometimes, but I have a practical side ("forget about right and wrong: Just figure out how to create an argument that we can use to gain support and crush all the rest with or at least beat 'em over the head 'till they quit. Remember, when it comes to gaining support, the argument is more important than the facts: Remember though the goal must be sound")

- E-6w5(CP): This type is generally less overtly energetic than 6w7 but oddly more intense, less anxious, yet, more likely to be counterphobic, assertive, or just aggressive; often has a smaller close circle of friends, though may have many acquaintances. This type is commonly seen in rescue workers (ambulance workers, firefighters), police-officers, military personnel, spies (which can also include 5w6, or 8w9). Though many written works on 6's say that under stress they'll eventually crack whereas 8's won't: Everybody cracks under enough pressure, and some soldiers are awfully psychologically sturdy (fighter pilots, for example have to resist all sorts of horrific torture if captured and are both very well trained in how to resist it).
 

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Especially that first description of having something indefinably wrong about you. That's why I worry about people getting too close. They will see my true self - something that is flawed and wrong. I remember trying so many times to articulate why I felt like a terrible person to my therapist and settled on vastly incomplete and superficial reasons.
I had a very similar discussion with my therapist once. I keep describing myself as weird, as an outsider, a freak and different (but not in a negative way, I was actually rather proud). And she asked me what exactly is it about me that makes me a freak, different or even weird. And I was left hanging, because I really had no idea. How was I supposed to communicate to her that inner feeling of being flawed, imperfect or wrong? So I just sat there and tried to come up with reasons, all of them like you said, superficial and incomplete.

I find it rather funny. Being so certain of something, but unable to offer up a definitive explanation or solid proof.
 

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This might be relevant: I'm a type 4 and I dated someone who resonated with the 6 t type when I introduced her to the enneagram...which was interesting, because I was pretty sure she was a 4. She was really quiet and covered in unique-looking tattoos (one was a detailed portrait of the lead singer of Alkaline Trio's face). She was also very dramatic as well as quite creative, always writing me notes and making crafts. But...she wasn't a 4. Why: humble...not introspective/contemptuous of introspection...paid attention to others...hardworking...fit in.
 

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The only difference that matters is that 4s have had a strong, inner sense of identity since adolescence, Sixes don't. The rest is fluff.
No. The identity issues are typical of the 4, 6, and 9 enneagram types. It just goes about expressing itself differently.
 

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No. The identity issues are typical of the 4, 6, and 9 enneagram types. It just goes about expressing itself differently.
Sixes and Nines don't have that intrinsic sense of self that 4s have (or at least the life-long obsession with digging for it). Their sense of self is either vague or externally-based (I'm smart, funny, perceptive, shy, artistic, a writer, etc.). 4s describe themselves with metaphors, hyperbole and abstractions.
 

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Sixes and Nines don't have that intrinsic sense of self that 4s have (or at least the life-long obsession with digging for it). Their sense of self is either vague or externally-based (I'm smart, funny, perceptive, shy, artistic, a writer, etc.). 4s describe themselves with metaphors, hyperbole and abstractions.
They often do especially with a 4 fix. Metaphors and abstractions is an Ne/Ni thing.
 

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They often do especially with a 4 fix. Metaphors and abstractions is an Ne/Ni thing.
Still Sixes aren't gonna be constantly thinking about the deepest layers of their being/emotion from such an extreme egocentric lense. Plenty of Sixes have depth, but that type of introspection isn't natural for them. They'll have moments, but it isn't a life long, debilitating fixation for them. There's no Ni-esque, transcendent internal landscape that they're obsessively drawing from.
 

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Maybe I never had this issue because when I would type as an alternate enneagram from my actual it was as my gut fix, 1 wing 2.

I'm able to designate what is a 6 tendency and what is a 4 tendency despite that each are in my tritype and each has a 5 wing.

For a person who is unsure between 4 and 6 (different triads altogether), I'd ask important questions like: do you scan ahead for danger, threats, loss of resources, potential problems and potential ways to prevent those problems, contingency planning, etc.? Are skepticism, doubt, trust, loyalty, testing something to discover its reliable nature or inability to depend upon it daily concepts in your life that influence your decisions? Testing for a 6 isn't about being abandoned, not the way it is for a 4. Truth and honesty are paramount in my mind, I don't like people who twist it because all they did was make more work and messes and stress for other people, taxing precious resources and breeding destructive doubts.

It's all about security for a 6, about reducing anxiety and coping with it- and not necessarily in social ways because social factors can be difficult to alter. As people have mentioned, it's easier for a 6 to adapt and change than it would be for a 4, because a 6 knows that behaving differently doesn't change their core being, their core knowledge of self or relation to self. A superego can justify things without sacrificing identity, simply by saying that it was necessary, that it kept some important relationships intact or conserved important resources and sources of safety and support. I can even play whatever role people cast me in without taking their judgment personally simply from my awareness that they are wrong. People can set me apart to exclude or to include me- it doesn't determine my worth, it just means one group of people isn't worth my time and the other one is.

With 4 in my tritype, I still feel resistance to change who I am and will only do so to the happiness of others- those who accept things about me that most other people simply don't want to understand nor appreciate. I change if I feel that it's healthy to do so, that it doesn't deny or repress who I am but instead can develop and enhance that. I like getting to know myself in different ways, see myself differently (the thing itself doesn't change, but your view of it can) and that requires letting go of stale, one-sided perception and letting new opinions in. It's so I don't have a double standard, or the concept of "I'm an emo kid, non-comforming as can be. You'd be non-comforming too, if you looked just - like - me." (lyrics are from "The Emo Song" by Adam 'n Andrew)

My enneagram 4 best friend and I laughed our asses off at the irony.

What's strangest of all is this pull of being a 6 who is independently minded, with a 4 in my tritype which will influence me to ask to be rescued when I have little to nothing left. I get tired of people who play "victim" roles because in my mind that's a last resort for someone who is really unhealthy, not a card that should be played at every hand as if it's society's job or the job of someone else to take care of you. I wanted to keep working to support myself and I said it quite clearly before I got married, but pretty soon stress worsened my anxiety to the point it was very difficult to even leave the house. I hated feeling like that. Being taken care of was difficult for me to not feel bad about, to the point I eventually taught myself how to get back into an independent mind set, find a way to treat the anxiety, and get my life back in order.
 

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Seems I've found my way back to the 4 forum again :laughing: aka I've been questioning my type. :rolleyes:
Usually my type has stuck for a few months - then something nags at me.

I've changed so much the last few years it's hard to see the core clearly. So I try looking at my youth... but even memories get fuzzy after a while. So all I'm left is my current trains of thought.

Being different – being deviating
I think I feel both. An example of me being deviating was my decision not to pursue college; I wanted to pave my own path and do my own thing. I didn't want to do what everyone else was doing, plus I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do either.

But I've always felt different... an outsider, a shy wallflower, and I can identify a few of the reasons. Not having a dad growing up, being gay, those two changed the tint on my glasses so to speak.

I think this ties in very closely with the following... because once upon awareness of feeling different (and people/society looking away) you want to understand why. I've certainly felt some happiness in my life, but I know I've also spent a LOT of time thinking about how sad or depressed I am - aka "why can't I be happy?". I've been called weird and I know people see me that way.

I've had distinct trouble relating to people. Especially the common folk. And jobs I've worked at (service industry) require me to interact with the masses. While this has made me more outgoing, assertive, direct and perhaps extraverted, there are too many times to count where I KNOW I am putting on a mask to relate to these people - and I immediately feel fake afterwards.


Understanding yourself – knowing yourself
Sometimes I can be a pushover, and I'll question myself after: "Why did I do that". And have a really hard time coming up with, and deciding upon, the answer. It's not about knowing why, it's about understanding why. Yes, I know I could have done A or B or C with this situation. But I chose C. And I can try to rationalize C, but why? What motivation caused me to act in that way? Enneagram helps me understand this some.
But if I can't answer a question like this, it gives me the distinct impression I don't know who I am nor do I understand myself.

This leads to some type of analysis paralysis - but wait - I don't think that means I'm necessarily a 6. 4s analyze too. 4s dwell on their emotions a lot, so perhaps this can seem like getting stuck in an ocean of emotion.
Sometimes, 20 minutes will go by without me realizing I'm sitting on the edge of the bed, thinking about something not remotely real. I'll snap out of it, realizing it's all in my head.

To be authentic – to be true to yourself

To be honest, this is still hard to tell apart. I'm equating being authentic to being true to myself. Because what's not authentic=false, fake, not real. That's what I hope to be: Genuine, sincere, real. Down to earth, humble. An understanding, honest, kind person. Also, being true to myself means standing up for what I feel is right/wrong, my convictions or ideals.

There are too many situations in my life where I feel like I'm being fake or I am aware I not being the real me, because I can't be.
In the workplace, this is all too obvious. Working with the masses - I can't possibly expect them to relate to me or vice versa. So when I do try to relate, it feels fake after.

And if I were to come off as the real me -show them the real side - well by gosh - what would happen? I think I'd get quite a few weird, dirty or confused looks - along the lines of "What's wrong with you?"
And then bam - the shame might kick in. I feel ashamed of who I am. But I am who I am, I can't be anyone else?? Why would I want to change? That feels wrong.

If someone were to say that to me right now, I'd probably say "there's NOTHING wrong with me".

One thing I really dislike doing and automatically can't avoid, is when someone asks "how are you" and I say "good" by default. I can't stand it - especially when I'm NOT good.

Maybe I have been avoiding expressing my true self so much as a form of counter-shame?
 

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self-growth for fours recommends relying less on one's feelings.
this is practically the opposite of what sixes need to learn--
That is tough, I always score pretty high as a 6 and a 4, I can also relate to both of these. I always have these gut feelings I just want to ignore but it turns out I was right, but I have also had gut feelings that were incorrect. So hard to trust your gut...sticking with 6.
 
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