Personality Cafe banner
1 - 20 of 39 Posts

·
Registered
INFJ 8w9, 9w8, Sx/So
Joined
·
521 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Are there any obvious differences between ENTJ-3 and ENTJ-8 enneagrams? Some characteristics that I am curious about: extremely high ambition, not caring about visual appearance (random color matching, easy-going style), highly caring about the career/social status, looks “down” on his accomplishments (as if there aren’t any). Easily trusts people (thinks that many are smart and capable), very competitive even in trivial things (random games). Not sure what else should I be looking at to type correctly.
 

·
Host
ENTP 5w6 So/Sx 584 ILE Honorary INTJ VLFE
Joined
·
20,613 Posts
Well, the motivations are going to be different. Both like to be in charge, but for very different reasons. According to Heidi Priebe, ENTJs are commonly found to be type 3 or 8. This doesn't seem like a coincidence to me. Both make very good commanders.

Type 8 ENTJs are highly ambitious and enjoy being on top – but this attitude extends beyond the workplace. They will feel most comfortable when they are in positions of power not only at work but also in relationships and social situations. They are quick to assert themselves and establish their dominance at all times – making them a slightly more aggressive version of the ENTJ personality. Though this type gives off an intimidating air – and they like it that way – they are also generous and diligent providers for the people they are close to. This type prides themselves on their ability to independently care for both themselves and their loved ones. At their core, the type 8 ENTJ believes that their self-worth is dependent upon their ability to stay in control of their circumstances. They are constantly moving toward autonomy and away from any feeling of being externally controlled or manipulated. The type 8 ENTJ is most similar to the ESTJ personality, as their focus is predominantly on their extroverted thinking.

Type 3 ENTJs are intensely focused on long-term goals and plans. Like their type 8 counterparts, this type aims to establish themselves in positions of authority in whichever field of work they pursue. Unlike the type 8, however, the type 3 ENTJ sees power as an instrument rather than an end in itself. They wish to rise to the top because they are driven by a strong inner compass that tells them their self-worth is dependent upon their accomplishments. This type of ENTJ may be more dependent upon their introverted intuition than their type 8 counterparts. Rather than consulting Ni solely as a means of manipulating their circumstances, they will consult their auxiliary function as a means of forming long-term plans and optimizing their ideas and plans. For this reason, this type is most similar to the INTJ personality. Type 3 ENTJs are constantly moving toward success – however success is defined by the culture or society they live in – and away from feelings of insignificance and worthlessness.


 

·
Registered
ENTJ 8w9
Joined
·
2,041 Posts
extremely high ambition
Both have it, but with different aims that don't have much to do with ENTJness.

not caring about visual appearance (random color matching, easy-going style)
Maybe it is more true for 8s, but it isn't necessarily very apparent.
I have a certain consistent "style" (e.g. I like wearing simple/formal clothes in black/grey colors), but mostly out of practical concerns. I want to look good with little effort.

highly caring about the career/social status
Status is about 3s.
8s can be career-oriented but more out of the desire for intensity and conquering challenges.

looks “down” on his accomplishments (as if there aren’t any).
Easily trusts people (thinks that many are smart and capable)
Definitely not 8s.

very competitive even in trivial things (random games).
Can be either way. 8s probably will bother less with that, since there is no need to keep up the image as much.

Not sure what else should I be looking at to type correctly.
Generally it's better to just focus on discerning core motivations/fears.

I would say that 8s will be more focused on being in the position of power (which won't necessarily manifest in an obnoxious way).
3s will care about being conventionally successful in an immediately observable way, always having something to brag about.
 

·
Registered
INFJ 8w9, 9w8, Sx/So
Joined
·
521 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Thanks. I think ENTJ-3, but a lot of 8 also applies. I think ENTJ-8 wouldn’t want to lift others up in terms of status/image so easily (maybe I am wrong), seems that help from ENTJ-8 would be more conditional b/c power seeker wouldn’t want to give it up so quickly ( for “free”). While image seeker would share his image/status more easily. If it is more about being “worthy” successful, then helping others only improves the image/status.edit: Also comparing with myself being an 8, I don’t feel the need at all to “compete” with this person, very nice explanation why: Relationship Type 3 with Type 8 — The Enneagram Institute (but a lot of this also applies 😸 Relationship Type 8 with Type 8 — The Enneagram Institute).
 

·
Registered
ENTJ 8w9
Joined
·
2,041 Posts
I think ENTJ-8 wouldn’t want to lift others up in terms of status/image so easily (maybe I am wrong), seems that help from ENTJ-8 would be more conditional b/c power seeker wouldn’t want to give it up so quickly ( for “free”)
It's not necessarily about getting benefits out of this "help".
I like helping those who are in need or to facilitate their growth. When I see that I can cause a positive meaningful impact.
It feels as if I am somewhat responsible for the power that I have.

But yeah, lifting others in image/status is rarely a priority in itself.
 

·
Registered
INFJ 8w9, 9w8, Sx/So
Joined
·
521 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I like helping those who are in need or to facilitate their growth. When I see that I can cause a positive meaningful impact.
It feels as if I am somewhat responsible for the power that I have.
That’s nice. So it’s in a way about “ego”, feeling better about yourself?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,879 Posts
That’s nice. So it’s in a way about “ego”, feeling better about yourself?
I don't understand how you came to that conclusion? The motivation is clearly an external one yet you're trying to make it be an internal one.
seems that help from ENTJ-8 would be more conditional b/c power seeker wouldn’t want to give it up so quickly ( for “free”)
This has never ever even been a notion in my head. I would more so say that I wouldn't want to help someone look better than they actually are, because they don't deserve it. They have to prove their worth, and if someone has proven they're worthy yet aren't in the position that they get recognition for it, I'll make sure they do in due time in whatever way I can or at least elevate them in some way - get their spirits high, encourage, give tips, help out.

But as you can see, it's not always the case that the person has been 'deemed worthy for me to hand out tips', I just do it because I consider any shared insight on my side a net positive. I know this isn't the case on your side, or in a lot of Ti cases. So this mindset is probably hard to understand for you.
 

·
Registered
ENTJ 8w9
Joined
·
2,041 Posts
That’s nice. So it’s in a way about “ego”, feeling better about yourself?
It's feeling better by doing something good, making things run more efficiently. Selfless kind of "selfishness".
I already feel good about myself and it isn't related.
 

·
Registered
INFJ 8w9, 9w8, Sx/So
Joined
·
521 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I know this isn't the case on your side, or in a lot of Ti cases. So this mindset is probably hard to understand for you.
I don’t think any other type is like this, not just me.

I also have the need to improve reality in a positive way, but in an abstract way, i.e. discovering something new that is useful for many. Mentoring specific people is never my first choice, only if someone needs it. If I do this and help with my experience/knowledge, I expect some kind of behavior (respect) in return, or accomplishing tasks together, or acting in this way with others. Otherwise I feel it is just wasted time on a wrong individual.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fru2

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,879 Posts
I don’t think any other type is like this, not just me.

I also have the need to improve reality in a positive way, but in an abstract way, i.e. discovering something new that is useful for many. Mentoring specific people is never my first choice, only if someone needs it. If I do this and help with my experience/knowledge, I expect some kind of behavior (respect) in return, or accomplishing tasks together, or acting in this way with others. Otherwise I feel it is just wasted time on a wrong individual.
Te determines worthwhile investments through overall impact, nonrelated to the individual as much as to the action and objective effect thereof. In this regard F can seem selfish to me at times, because I know that if everyone were to share tips and knowledge and help based on overall positive impact we would be in a much better place, but Fe-Ti intrinsically assumes that people are inherently selfish, there's no attention put on cause and effect, instead there's always something wrong with the other which comes from a mental interest to withold and preserve knowledge as to 'not spill it to waste'. That's the difference between Te doms and Te blinds ime.

Both my parents are IXFJs, they've numerous times misunderstood my choices as selfish, inconsiderate of them or an outright betrayal because their way of decisionmaking is just different. They think that everyone thinks the way they do. That if someone makes a certain decision it's only due to the reasoning they themselves would have under the circumstance.

For example they were talking recently when we met about a relative who's choosing for a certain politician, and my mom goes 'it's all because he was in prison, he had some bad influence there', which to me seems very rude and closeminded to assume, almost as if the thought is created out of a need to feel more moral about her own reasoning hence establishing an ethics-based relation(in her own mind) with the relative.
 

·
Registered
ENTJ 7w8 sx/so
Joined
·
8,506 Posts
ENTJ 8 - I need to be the one person in the room who is in charge.
ENTJ 3 - I want to be successful and make sure everyone knows that I am.

I suppose that would be the ego driven motivation for either. As an ENTJ 7, I really just want to do it all, within reason of course, and if I get the opportunity to, I do. 😛
 

·
Registered
INFJ 8w9, 9w8, Sx/So
Joined
·
521 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Te determines worthwhile investments through overall impact, nonrelated to the individual as much as to the action and objective effect thereof. In this regard F can seem selfish to me at times, because I know that if everyone were to share tips and knowledge and help based on overall positive impact we would be in a much better place, but Fe-Ti intrinsically assumes that people are inherently selfish, there's no attention put on cause and effect, instead there's always something wrong with the other which comes from a mental interest to withold and preserve knowledge as to 'not spill it to waste'. That's the difference between Te doms and Te blinds ime.
From my perspective Fe is not about negative or positive traits. Fe would be why some individuals are better suited to do something than others. Te seems more universal, it is about what is done, not who is doing it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,879 Posts
Fe would be why some individuals are better suited to do something than others.
Using personal logical framework as a reasoning for that, which doesn't really apply to others. In the same way, Te is a universally applicable reasoning that has an underlying moral framework that doesn't apply to others.

Te isn't necessarily exclusive of addressing the people doing the action in question, I'm actually pretty good at understanding people's potentialities and abilities, because there's a constant study of what actions create the wanted result, and which attributes of people give certain actions. An INFJ doesn't have that because of a lack of Se and Te, so there's a judgment being put on people that can be very far from the truth which seems to be the case due to their personal reading of the energies in the room.

For example an INFJ could spot someone and tell them 'I don't understand why you're so angry' and the person would become angry from them saying that because they weren't angry, but the INFJ would sense their angry feelings coming up thus 'confirming' their suspicions, while if they had Te they would immediately understand that 'of course they're angry now, because I accused them of being angry.' Action-reaction.

The presupposition that the person is angry gets expressed through conscious Fe use, but stems more so from an underlying, more unconscious Ti use, that if the INFJ was in the same scenario it'd be logical for them to be angry.
 

·
Registered
INFJ 8w9, 9w8, Sx/So
Joined
·
521 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Well developed Fe should also be universal and general (what is “good” for all) but for F-users it is more natural to learn through personal interactions and remembering individuals for their specific characteristics.

In a way there are also no two exact same “Te”, because you process your information as an individual, and apply subjectivity within your Te. If you lean to negative when referring to lack of Te it can be because of your personal negative experience with F users.

Both functions should be equally objective (but different in focus) and neutral, not positive or negative.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,879 Posts
Both functions should be equally objective (but different in focus) and neutral, not positive or negative.
That's an objective feeling judgment, or something an Fe dom/aux will say. But you're talking with a Te dom, who according to Jung:
In accordance with his definition, we must picture a, man whose constant aim -- in so far, of course, as he is a [p. 435] pure type -- is to bring his total life-activities into relation with intellectual conclusions, which in the last resort are always orientated by objective data, whether objective facts or generally valid ideas. This type of man gives the deciding voice-not merely for himself alone but also on behalf of his entourage-either to the actual objective reality or to its objectively orientated, intellectual formula. By this formula are good and evil measured, and beauty and ugliness determined. All is right that corresponds with this formula; all is wrong that contradicts it; and everything that is neutral to it is purely accidental. Because this formula seems to correspond with the meaning of the world, it also becomes a world-law whose realization must be achieved at all times and seasons, both individually and collectively. Just as the extraverted thinking type subordinates himself to his formula, so, for its own good, must his entourage also obey it, since the man who refuses to obey is wrong -- he is resisting the world-law, and is, therefore, unreasonable, immoral, and without a conscience. His moral code forbids him to tolerate exceptions; his ideal must, under all circumstances, be realized; for in his eyes it is the purest conceivable formulation of objective reality, and, therefore, must also be generally valid truth, quite indispensable for the salvation of man. This is not from any great love for his neighbour, but from a higher standpoint of justice and truth. Everything in his own nature that appears to invalidate this formula is mere imperfection, an accidental miss-fire, something to be eliminated on the next occasion, or, in the event of further failure, then clearly a sickness.
You can see here how having objective feeling judgments just wouldn't work for an objective thinker. Objective thinking has to correspond with subjective feeling, likewise for the objective feeling, a subjective thinking is at play.

The more objective your feeling gets, the more it will be reliant on a subjective thinking. so you can't really become more objective, you can only increase the schism between the subjective and objective or bridge the gaps between them by learning how each affects the other. And just like you did above, even if you completely focus on being objective, others most likely will notice more so the subjective aspect of your judgment, especially when they understand that objectivity is what you pay attention to and subjectivity is more unconscious to you.
 

·
Registered
INFJ 8w9, 9w8, Sx/So
Joined
·
521 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
That's an objective feeling judgment, or something an Fe dom/aux will say. But you're talking with a Te dom, who according to Jung:

(...)

And just like you did above, even if you completely focus on being objective, others most likely will notice more so the subjective aspect of your judgment, especially when they understand that objectivity is what you pay attention to and subjectivity is more unconscious to you.
I agree, the notion of subjectivity/objectivity is “symmetrical” for F->T and T->F swap. I wanted to more emphasize the emotional neutrality of F, there are no “emotions” in F, even though it is called a feeling function. What is called emotional is actually “individual” or “specific” to someone, which is not colored in negative or positive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,879 Posts
I agree, the notion of subjectivity/objectivity is “symmetrical” for F->T and T->F swap. I wanted to more emphasize the emotional neutrality of F, there are no “emotions” in F, even though it is called a feeling function. What is called emotional is actually “individual” or “specific” to someone, which is not colored in negative or positive.
That's why I don't see a relationship between Te dom/aux and Fe dom/aux really working(more so for NJs), because there's something that the other person is peceived to be lacking. In this case, how can I trust someone that doesn't distinguish a positive from a negative? If I show them that something is negative and they say 'oh okay so this is your preference, noted', I won't be able to trust them henceforth because we don't exist in the same headspace, their feeling motivations are external and not something intrinsic. I wouldn't value their feeling judments because it'd seem to me like an effort to please for manipulations sake, there's no internal compass but a radio that switches onto the most accepted/valuable ways of being in the persons given society/group/relationship.

I'd even go so far as blocking my expression sothat the Fe dom/aux won't be able to manipulate me. And that's a hell of a basis for trust.
Btw my experience with my parents is largely a very positive one and I do trust them, but such a lifetime close relationship did give me some insight on the issue imo. The contrast is astonishing to how my trust with an ESFP SO naturally developed, as well as the level of trust I naturally establish with other Gammas and high Te users.
 

·
Registered
INFJ 8w9, 9w8, Sx/So
Joined
·
521 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
That's why I don't see a relationship between Te dom/aux and Fe dom/aux really working(more so for NJs), because there's something that the other person is peceived to be lacking. In this case, how can I trust someone that doesn't distinguish a positive from a negative? If I show them that something is negative and they say 'oh okay so this is your preference, noted', I won't be able to trust them henceforth because we don't exist in the same headspace, their feeling motivations are external and not something intrinsic.

I'd even go so far as blocking my expression sothat the Fe dom/aux won't be able to manipulate me. And that's a hell of a basis for trust.
I don’t think Fe is about manipulation if it is aware of your preferences. Do you not consider that “nice” if someone wants to take notice? Why would be better to ignore? (Fe can take notice or not.) If it notices, it is about expression of attention, caring etc. towards your profile.

In this time of supercomputers/AI you could imagine it as storing your longitudinal timeline data (individual for you) to make better decisions for you.

About the lack of Fi, I wouldn’t want to be a Fi user, I think Fe gives me the right kind of empathy for others, and possibility to imagine myself in their situation, which is important for learning about other perspectives and the world in general.

I definitely can feel “liking” something or someone (I like Fi users 😸 + I feel that I can benefit from their perspective through interactions), so I don’t really think Fe is void of personal preferences.

(edit: You could also see it as "selfishness" or a closed loop; "Fe likes Fi because in the end it feels better", so this is not real empathy. Fi has closed loops in "sympathy"; they don't really mirror your situation as they don't have Fe, so they cannot really "feel for you".)

Cognitive functions are only about the ordering/ranking information when it comes as new and unknown, which can shape (and definitely shapes) our characters, but as we age this ranking is less important.
 

·
Registered
INFJ 8w9, 9w8, Sx/So
Joined
·
521 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I wouldn't value their feeling judments because it'd seem to me like an effort to please for manipulations sake, there's no internal compass but a radio that switches onto the most accepted/valuable ways of being in the persons given society/group/relationship.
Feeling judgements of a Fe dom should be useful for you in terms of judging are others capable to do something (for you). This is what I mean by “individual” decision making. One example is should you collaborate with some new person or not. If you have an XNFJ who knows you, you could go with their advice even if you don’t know the new person.

In mathematical language all functions operate on some space, so Fe would operate on a space of persons, while Te would operate on a space of (abstract) objects. Both are good (or bad/weak if undeveloped) for something different.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,879 Posts
I don’t think Fe is about manipulation if it is aware of your preferences. Do you not consider that “nice” if someone wants to take notice? Why would be better to ignore? (Fe can take notice or not.) If it notices, it is about expression of attention, caring etc. towards your profile.
Towards my profile.. oh why didn't you say so, now I'm completely fine with it!
In this time of supercomputers/AI you could imagine it as storing your longitudinal timeline data (individual for you) to make better decisions for you.
Exactly what I don't need. For people to make decisions for me based on what they think would suit me, emphasis put on what they think.
It's extremely invasive.
About the lack of Fi, I wouldn’t want to be a Fi user, I think Fe gives me the right kind of empathy for others, and possibility to imagine myself in their situation, which is important for learning about other perspectives and the world in general.
The right kind of empathy you want to have for others. I can just as well imagine myself in others situation, but I value different aspects of this process obviously.
Feeling judgements of a Fe dom should be useful for you in terms of judging are others capable to do something (for you). This is what I mean by “individual” decision making. One example is should you collaborate with some new person or not. If you have an XNFJ who knows you, you could go with their advice even if you don’t know the new person.
My initial judgments are pretty spot on about people usually. Te can map personal and interpersonal aspects just as well as object-oriented ones(at least for me)
 
1 - 20 of 39 Posts
Top